The problem with Plot Manipulation.

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The circumstances are that some people think that certain things are inherent about plot manipulation when those things fall under assuming that the ability can produce "any imaginable effect". They don't realize that it's assuming no limit. Obviously someone debating well isn't going to intentionally use a fallacy, so if it's widespread that people think the entire plot of a story necessarily transcends the concept of "concepts" unless demonstrated otherwise in specific stories, then the matter is something that should be addressed in the VS Battles Wiki's content, so people can know what its stance is about the matter.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

@Jozaysmith? Since when is Information Type 2 remotely comparable to something like high end Acausality, NEP and Nonduality? You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Okay so it's only that, that matters and not CM and info?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Jozaysmith? some CM aren't that busted so most of them wouldn't really matter much, especially if they're reliant on the reality they exist in so affecting said reality would by default affect those concepts. Info doesn't tell me anything beyond it being a fundamental part of reality, which by itself just sounds like it's comparable to type 2 CM at best, so again, not something I'd compare to Type 5 Acausals, Type 2 or 1 NEP, or Nondualities.

 

[Fixxed]

I think this already being a unwritten standard for long long time

Concept, plot, information, fate, causality... are equal by default, they cannot affect each other without any feats. Well there are no superiority or inferiority between them, them simply just different

Well i dont mind if this become written standard

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

But normal reality wrapping doesn't have this
"Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. "
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/P...lity once one views that reality as fictional.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I think this already being a unwritten standard for long long time

Concept, plot, information, fate, causality... are equal by default, they cannot affect each other without any feats. Well there are no superiority or inferiority between them, them simply just different

Well i dont mind if this become written standard

yeah, The main point of this thread is to make it much clearer that plot manipulation is not always fundamentaly more important the for example fate manipulation, or Conceptual manipulation. It changes from verse to verse. I think DT had a very good explanation of it.

 

[OMNIVERSAL-KING]

I think adding further detail on plot manipulation page is required (current info isn't enough)

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I always thought that script manipulation was the most powerful hax and that no other had any effect.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Sorry for using you as an example here @LuffyRuffy46307.

I always thought that script manipulation was the most powerful hax and that no other had any effect.

but this is exactly what i mean, a lot of people don't understand the limits of Plot manipulation with it's current description.

 

[Ss3micah]

Users simply have to be more adamant against this type of arguments. Even things like ND and NEP are not that indominable. A character that has NEP can be non-existent in certain aspect, but can be affected in other ways, not to mention, void manipulation can affect nep. Nonduality is also not that big of a deal. The verse its self has to establish the dual systems, and characters can have nonduality in aspects that are just meaningless to most characters. In fact, I will bet money there are a lot of characters who are nondual, but can't do anything with it because the verse never actually stated any specific dual systems for them.

It depends on the NEP, on the aspects that the character's NEP covers.

A character can be non-existent but have no concept or non-existent information, just the body and soul.

For him not to be affected by a power that manipulates the narrative, he would have to have the type 5 narrative aspect to have his narrative non-existent and gain resistance against it, otherwise his narrative still exists and can still be manipulated.

That isn’t really wrong when they exist on the same dimensional plane of existence and aren’t ridiculously uninteractable like how those or Type 5 Acausals work. The NLF comes when people argue it works on NEP, ND and Type 5 Acausals without any evidence of doing so since the whole point of those state of beings is they’re nigh impossible to interact with without feats.

@Theglassman12

I’ll say I’ll agree with Iam and Phscc on this kind of matter. Or at least I have the same grievances as well. NEP and ND have to produce their own evidences as well otherwise where do we strike the balance?

For example…
Let’s say Character A has Concept Hax but no one in his Verse has NEP. So there would be no existing feats for character A having the ability to affect NEP beings. Now let’s say that character B has NEP aspects covering mind, soul and information but not Concepts. Character B does not lack the aspects of concepts BUT at the same time character A does not have feats of affecting NEP beings in his own verse.

Where do we strike the balance?
Do we say:
Character A has no feats of affecting NEP beings so his concept Hax doesn’t work even thou Character B who while Nonexistent still has the aspect of Concepts?
Or do we say Character A concept Hax can affect the Character B because they don’t lack the aspect of Concepts?

The same rings true for ND beings.
Let’s say for instance that there is some beings who has ND comprising a duality system like this:

Space and Time
Life and Death
Light and Darkness
Push and Pull
In and Out
Over and Under
Fire and Water
Sky and Ground

And lets also say that say that the verse in question never outlines or mentions at all concepts, information or narrative to even be a thing existing within the duality systems of said verse.

Do we now say things like ND2 just immediately no sells concept Hax, info Hax, narrative Hax and the like without the justification or need to provide such context of these aspects existing as dual systems in the verse? Is there a protocol in place that just auto-assume or inherently attributes these aspects to dual systems automatically just for ND? And of course the bigger question going forward, for characters who has ND without the dual systems in there own verse establishing these aspects, do we still say they resist these aspects and if so then why? If these aspects have no mention in the verse nor can be outlined to exist as part of the verses dual system then under what pretense do we say ND just gives you resistance just like that?

 

[NannoKarma]

You should resist Plot manipulation with only resistance to Plot manipulation, i dont see any physiology or acausality stuff resist it. Even transdual or NEP just still exist on the narrarive unless its shown on a plot scale, for me it's NLF for the other hand. Not saying having plot manipulation of low level is an auto-win or something.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Let’s say Character A has Concept Hax but no one in his Verse has NEP. So there would be no existing feats for character A having the ability to affect NEP beings. Now let’s say that character B has NEP aspects covering mind, soul and information but not Concepts. Character B does not lack the aspects of concepts BUT at the same time character A does not have feats of affecting NEP beings in his own verse.

Where do we strike the balance?
Do we say:
Character A has no feats of affecting NEP beings so his concept Hax doesn’t work even thou Character B who while Nonexistent still has the aspect of Concepts?
Or do we say Character A concept Hax can affect the Character B because they don’t lack the aspect of Concepts?

If a character has NEP but doesn’t have NEP for concept, then they can be affected by the other characters concept manipulation. He is interacting with something that doesn’t have NEP.

Space and Time
Life and Death
Light and Darkness
Push and Pull
In and Out
Over and Under
Fire and Water
Sky and Ground

And lets also say that say that the verse in question never outlines or mentions at all concepts, information or narrative to even be a thing existing within the duality systems of said verse.

Do we now say things like ND2 just immediately no sells concept Hax, info Hax, narrative Hax and the like without the justification or need to provide such context of these aspects existing as dual systems in the verse? Is there a protocol in place that just auto-assume or inherently attributes these aspects to dual systems automatically just for ND? And of course the bigger question going forward, for characters who has ND without the dual systems in there own verse establishing these aspects, do we still say they resist these aspects and if so then why? If these aspects have no mention in the verse nor can be outlined to exist as part of the verses dual system then under what pretense do we say ND just gives you resistance just like that?

At the very best, you can argue that manipulating the concept of time won’t work on someone who is ND of time and space. However, manipulating another concept that isn’t apart of the character’s established dual system is fair game.

Having an ability doesn’t grant other abilities or resistances that are outside what is shown or the logical conclusion of what is shown.

Ex. A character who can turn people into animals. In canon, they have turned people into pigs, ants, mice etc. It is a fair logical conclusion to believe that the character can turn someone into a fish even if they haven’t shown that in canon. It’s not a fair logical conclusion to claim that the character can turn someone into a rock or tree or non-animal object.

To me that is the balance.

 

[Metalballrun]

Just gonna say if a profile has an ability that can be exploited beyond what that character is actually capable of even upon inspection of the profile, then that profile probably has to be rectified since it's not informative enough. Assuming that seems to be part of the issue.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Just gonna say if a profile has an ability that can be exploited beyond what that character is actually capable of even upon inspection of the profile, then that profile probably has to be rectified since it's not informative enough. Assuming that seems to be part of the issue.

That is definitely a part of the problem, but the main thing is that a lot of profile dosen't mention what they can affect, but rather what they can do. for example "they can alter reality". This explains what the ability dose, but not what it can affect, and people tend to use this argument (NLF) in vs threads debates.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ss3micah the NEP concept stuff I’ve always seen it as just a form of resistance more than just it being uninteractable there. When it comes to the actual Nature of NEP, I’d argue that the CM stuff would need some proof that they can interact with something like NEP when by its very nature it doesn’t exist.

For your ND questions the whole point of Nonduality is you’re beyond dual concepts and aren’t bound by whatever dual natures exist, so being able to no sell Concept hax is a no brainer since that’s how it work. The info hax stuff I’d argue wouldn’t fare much better unless it would have some evidence of functioning outside of a duality or outside of reality as well.

 

[DontTalkDT]

To give some more of my opinions on stuff:

Concept manip (and other metaphyiscal aspects) can affect NEP users unless the have the corresponding type of lacking the aspect. Why? Because if they have the aspect they can be affected by the ability and it's a reasonably default to assume they have it, as everything usually has it.

For Acausality Type 5, given the "beyond feats" passage

Though the character is completely independent of causality to the point of being unaffected by any outside change, this only extends to as far as evidence shows and not to things beyond its feats.

I would argue that if we don't know that causality > the metaphysical aspect in question in the verse's hierarchy, being unaffected by change from the corresponding manipulation would be beyond the feats. (Unless they have separate feats of it, of course)

 

[Fixxed]

Concept manip (and other metaphyiscal aspects) can affect NEP users unless the have the corresponding type of lacking the aspect. Why? Because if they have the aspect they can be affected by the ability and it's a reasonably default to assume they have it, as everything usually has it.

Well it depend i think. If the user is or become pure nothingness without any existence, the concept user must have proof of manipulating concept of nothingness for affect him, same for plot information and other

I would argue that if we don't know that causality > the metaphysical aspect in question in the verse's hierarchy, being unaffected by change from the corresponding manipulation would be beyond the feats. (Unless they have separate feats of it, of course)

You mean those ability can affect aca 5 by default? I think those ability that must have feats for affecting aca 5, not thr aca 5 it self. By default those ability just govern "normal reality", and aca 5 already transcend that "normal reality", make the reality cannot interact with that


Well if you mean the character/user, i agree if those ability can still affect them. But if you mean the physiology, i disagree. But if that physiology cover all of the character's existence, i dont think those ability can affect them

 

[Robo432343]

if character A had NEP and the guy with plot hax has no feats of interacting with NEP, can the guy with plot hax make it so that character A is interactable?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Well it depend i think. If the user is or become pure nothingness without any existence, the concept user must have proof of manipulating concept of nothingness for affect him, same for plot information and other

You only make it conceptually non-existent if it is in this aspect.

If you are nonexistent physically and spiritually but not conceptually, you should still be affected by, for example, having the concept of your existence destroyed or things like that.

If a guy doesn't have a non-existent narrative, nothing prevents that person's narrative from being manipulated into x things.

if character A had NEP and the guy with plot hax has no feats of interacting with NEP, can the guy with plot hax make it so that character A is interactable?

Does this NEP have the type 5 aspect of the narrative type? If the answer is no, it means that this character's narrative exists, so his narrative can be manipulated.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Just gonna say if a profile has an ability that can be exploited beyond what that character is actually capable of even upon inspection of the profile, then that profile probably has to be rectified since it's not informative enough. Assuming that seems to be part of the issue.

That is definitely a part of the problem, but the main thing is that a lot of profile dosen't mention what they can affect, but rather what they can do. for example "they can alter reality". This explains what the ability dose, but not what it can affect, and people tend to use this argument (NLF) in vs threads debates.

Im in a versus thread where this is being broadcasted rn. Is there any way i can have a certain profile that's being exploited deleted or something along those lines as the thread is getting chaotic. What's worse the profile has little to no scans and is outdated.

 

[Duedate8898]

Since I'm pretty sure the scope of this thread is pretty big and site-wide, this has been moved to staff threads for now. Please remember those rules

 

[Antvasima]

If we did a page on metaphysical aspects I would do it something like this:

Metaphysical Aspects​

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list separately, such as some verses' versions of names, Dao, essence, ether etc.

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involves clarifies how interaction with the metaphysical aspect works.

Metaphysical Equalization​

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.
As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.
E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Agnaa @Just_a_Random_Butler @DarkGrath @Planck69 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Catzlaflame @Duedate8898 @Emirp sumitpo @Deagonx @FinePoint

What do you think about this?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Christ, two pages already.

I intended to speak on this. Will do so when I'm able, afraid duty calls for now. Dislike the big text "METAPHYSICAL ASPECTS" and what that foretells, but I'll see where the thread is when I'm home.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I basically agree with what DontTalkDT said for the most part.

 

[Fixxed]

You only make it conceptually non-existent if it is in this aspect.

If you are nonexistent physically and spiritually but not conceptually, you should still be affected by, for example, having the concept of your existence destroyed or things like that.

If a guy doesn't have a non-existent narrative, nothing prevents that person's narrative from being manipulated into x things.

Bruh concept of nonexistence is different from conceptually nonexistent

Concept is always tied to what it govern, if you just manipulate some concept that just govern anything that exist then you cannot manipulate something that not exist. Yeah you cannot manipulate the color if you just manipulate concept of fruit

You need to manipulate concept of nonexistence to affect the nonexistence

Same as other ability such as information or plot, i think we assume the default potence of those ability are just affect everything that exist or even just affect everything that physical

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

.

Sorry to ask, but can you delete your message? The thread has been moved to a staff thread so all none staff members will need premision to talk here
(this message will be deleted when Fixxed has deleted his comment)

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

To give some more of my opinions on stuff:

Concept manip (and other metaphyiscal aspects) can affect NEP users unless the have the corresponding type of lacking the aspect. Why? Because if they have the aspect they can be affected by the ability and it's a reasonably default to assume they have it, as everything usually has it.

For Acausality Type 5, given the "beyond feats" passage

I would argue that if we don't know that causality > the metaphysical aspect in question in the verse's hierarchy, being unaffected by change from the corresponding manipulation would be beyond the feats. (Unless they have separate feats of it, of course)

Apologize for the intrusion, but I wonder if you would discuss this in a CRT later on? Because this is very interesting.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think about this?

I think it's fine of I'm reading it right. Though you may want to through in an example of the concept in action.

 

[Catzlaflame]

@Catzlaflame

What do you think about this?

DT makes sense to me.

On a sidenote, I did want to clarify something that was brought up. While, a new page for all metaphysical aspects is fine, I can also understand why DarkSoul proposed a greater emphasis on Plot Manipulation specifically.

The fact of the matter is that, while, yes, it is the users' "fault" for not understanding the standard properly and wanking it in versus matches, we the staff should also try to make it as easy for them as possible. Part of this involves accounting for misunderstandings that are more likely to occur than others. Plot manipulation is BY FAR the most wanked of the metaphysical powers, even tho, theoretically, they can all be applied in the same way. So I wouldn't be opposed to giving Plot Manipulation "special treatment" to compensate for the bias people seem to have towards it via an additional note on the Plot Manip page.

Regardless, the current proposal by DT is fine with me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If we did a page on metaphysical aspects I would do it something like this:

Metaphysical Aspects​

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list separately, such as some verses' versions of names, Dao, essence, ether etc.

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involves clarifies how interaction with the metaphysical aspect works.

Metaphysical Equalization​

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.
As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.
E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

I do not like reading through a thread and saying "I agree with DontTalk", it seems too easy to do to avoid engaging with the contents of the thread. In spite of this, this is a good proposal. I already agreed in concept with the OP, this is as good a way of writing it out as I suspect we'll get. So...

I agree with Dark Soul, and by consequence DontTalk.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

To give some more of my opinions on stuff:

Concept manip (and other metaphyiscal aspects) can affect NEP users unless the have the corresponding type of lacking the aspect. Why? Because if they have the aspect they can be affected by the ability and it's a reasonably default to assume they have it, as everything usually has it.

For Acausality Type 5, given the "beyond feats" passage

I would argue that if we don't know that causality > the metaphysical aspect in question in the verse's hierarchy, being unaffected by change from the corresponding manipulation would be beyond the feats. (Unless they have separate feats of it, of course)

permission to comment here was granted by @Duedate8898
Firstly, Nonexistent physiology Nature type 1, need the aspects to actually defend themselves against this which makes sense but how about Nonexistsnt physiology Nature 2, which ends up being Nonduality as well?, with or without plot manip i doubt they'll be able to interact, some plot manip can if specifically mentioned to but it shouldn't be general for NEP 2, even some Acausality type 4, since plot manipulation is just broken fate manip and causality manip and ig subjective reality

 

[DontTalkDT]

permission to comment here was granted by @Duedate8898
Firstly, Nonexistent physiology Nature type 1, need the aspects to actually defend themselves against this which makes sense but how about Nonexistsnt physiology Nature 2, which ends up being Nonduality as well?, with or without plot manip i doubt they'll be able to interact, some plot manip can if specifically mentioned to but it shouldn't be general for NEP 2, even some Acausality type 4, since plot manipulation is just broken fate manip and causality manip and ig subjective reality

If NEP nature type 2 doesn't have aspect type 5 (for plot) then they only have nonduality aspect type 1 and not relating to plot. (Unless they have more for completely independent reasons)
As such they would not get extra protections, no.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

If NEP nature type 2 doesn't have aspect type 5 (for plot) then they only have nonduality aspect type 1 and not relating to plot. (Unless they have more for completely independent reasons)
As such they would not get extra protections, no.

What about BDE, like existing outside of reality itself, even though that said fictional franchise have no said "plot" but plot is sometimes contained within Reality

 

[DontTalkDT]

Something Something Ultima's latest revision Something Something What do I know. Plot probably does not work unless you have R>F transcendance over the plot or something, due to range reasons.
Doesn't matter for this topic in any case since BDE isn't a metaphysical aspect.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Could I discuss some details regarding it in a dm here or in discord?

DM me, I suppose.

 

[Antvasima]

So do we have sufficient support for DontTalk's suggested solution here to apply it?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

So do we have sufficient support for DontTalk's suggested solution here to apply it?

Since their seems to be no more admins, Willing to comment, and no staff has rejekted the proposal, I think it is safe to add both mine and DT's Proposal.

So we can add this

I propose that Plot manipulation Not only require proof of what it can do, but also what it can affect, some examples include Information, concepts, timelines.
This should also be mentioned in the plot manipulation ability description to prevent NLFs.

and

Metaphysical Aspects​

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list separately, such as some verses' versions of names, Dao, essence, ether etc.

Order of Aspects​

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involves clarifies how interaction with the metaphysical aspect works.

Metaphysical Equalization​

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.
As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.
E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

What needs to be added to plot manipulation page is simply that it needs to have proof of what it can affect to prevent NLF's

 

[Firestorm808]

It seems okay at a glance.

 

[Robo432343]

now that this thread is concluded can i ask this
does someone with plot manip need proof of interacting with acausality type 4 now?