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Changing the Versus Thread One-Shot Gap

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Antvasima said:
@Agnaa

What are the conclusions here so far?
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A conclusion hasn't really been reached. DDM's the only staff member who has approved shrinking it to 5x; DT seemed fine sticking with 7.5x even though the original basis for it doesn't give that now.
 
I'm not sure if DT entirely payed attention given that the reason for the 7.5x gap is outdated; he never specified if he thinks exactly 7.5x or simple "Gap between baseline 10-B and baseline 9-C" though he did say, "Fine with what we have."
 
Agnaa said:
A conclusion hasn't really been reached. DDM's the only staff member who has approved shrinking it to 5x; DT seemed fine sticking with 7.5x even though the original basis for it doesn't give that now.
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm not sure if DT entirely payed attention given that the reason for the 7.5x gap is outdated; he never specified if he thinks exactly 7.5x or simple "Gap between baseline 10-B and baseline 9-C" though he did say, "Fine with what we have."
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Should I call for DontTalk and our calc group members?
 
Probably. I'm not really, sure, sorry, it's been a while and I don't have much time to re-check.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The oneshot gap being 5x via Peak Human vs Normal Human gap is alright. It might be worded as something like.

"The gap between Character A's attack potency being 5x stronger than character B's durability is the gap required for a one-shot. It is a assume that they comparable in size and that punching is the standard method of attacking. And it is assumed that one solid punch to vulnerable spot such as the head or chest will at the very least knock the opponent unconscious and possible kill them. But the gap might be higher or lower depending on factors such as size/surface area difference, the use of sharp weapons, or other powers abilities such as regeneration."

And beyond that, I think an invulnerability gap is undecided but agreed it should generally be bigger number than 5x.
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I think this should work.
 
I think 7.5x is inoffensive, at least, since we don't have an exact working science for this and rather are spitballing semi-arbitrary thresholds.

A side consideration ought to be given to the great deal of effort that would need to be had to go through every match to determine if a potential AP victory has significantly changed context, an effort that I suspect would take months-years with little gain.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I think 7.5x is inoffensive, at least, since we don't have an exact working science for this and rather are spitballing semi-arbitrary thresholds.

A side consideration ought to be given to the great deal of effort that would need to be had to go through every match to determine if a potential AP victory has significantly changed context, an effort that I suspect would take months-years with little gain.
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The issue isn't whether or not it is "Inoffensive" the issue is that it's not a very well rounded number (Not the part that really matters) based off an outdated reasoning that would simply result in 5x (Baseline 10-B to baseline 9-C gap).

Also, we already do have notes that one-shots are case by case given size difference, existence of sharp/piercing attacks, ect. But this is the gap that one would at least knock the other unconscious with a punch. Keeping it 7.5 would be harmless per say, but it would need a better reason change if we keep that. Otherwise, the current reason would lower it to a simple 5x.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The issue isn't whether or not it is "Inoffensive" the issue is that it's not a very well rounded number (Not the part that really matters) based off an outdated reasoning that would simply result in 5x (Baseline 10-B to baseline 9-C gap).

Also, we already do have notes that one-shots are case by case given size difference, existence of sharp/piercing attacks, ect. But this is the gap that one would at least knock the other unconscious with a punch. Keeping it 7.5 would be harmless per say, but it would need a better reason change if we keep that. Otherwise, the current reason would lower it to a simple 5x.
Click to expand...
I'm aware of what the issue is, but as I said these are somewhat arbitrary boundaries we're setting up. I don't have strong feelings about "correcting" something if we don't have an actually correct answer. Hence I think keeping 7.5x is an inoffensive notion, unlikely to cause problems.
 
Some "general reasoning" for 7.5x ratio for oneshotting:
First, we have a peak human being able to one-shot a normal human to make the one-shot line.
Then we deduce that a normal human punch yields 40 J and a peak human attack somehow yields 300 J, therefore we have the 7.5x as the one-shot gap.

This may have changed over time tbh.
 
Greatsage13th said:
How about using the difference between a punch from the average human (100-110 foot pounds) and a punch from a boxer (≥1000 foot pounds) for the one shot gap?
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So give me that link

And maybe 10 times is the one-shot gap now.
 
So what are the staff conclusions here so far?
 
Antvasima said:
So what are the staff conclusions here so far?
Click to expand...
The same method we used to get the 7.5x one-shot gap now give us a 5x one-shot after the human level tiers changed.

Honestly, I think a well-placed punch from someone 5 times stronger than you should be able to knock you out or leave you in such a state that you would be unable to respond back.

So the change should be fine, there is no reason to hold back the revision, I wouldn't even recommend making a match with a 4x gap between opponents.
 
If we change the gap to 5x, then we would have to look at every match and remove them if the gap difference was higher than 5x.
 
Welp, then matchmaking is gonna be even harder to find now if this officially becomes the case
 
A punch 5 times stronger in the stomach would definitely leave you on the ground grasping for air and unable to do anything for a while.

As for outdated matches, I don't think they are that many with such a vast difference.
 
So... If oneshotting does not take that much power gap...

Are we also defining how this gap be used since characters in the same tier can theoretically one shot each other with a precise and lucky hit and if we apply this multiplier casually it can lead to a power inflation at best and circular inflation at worst.
 
Jasonsith said:
So... If oneshotting does not take that much power gap...

Are we also defining how this gap be used since characters in the same tier can theoretically one shot each other with a precise and lucky hit and if we apply this multiplier casually it can lead to a power inflation at best and circular inflation at worst.
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This gap is used for threads only. Not for indexing on profiles.
Greatsage13th said:
Why not just use the KE of the strongest punch divided by the KE of the average punch?
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That's what we already do.
 
Therefir said:
The same method we used to get the 7.5x one-shot gap now give us a 5x one-shot after the human level tiers changed.

Honestly, I think a well-placed punch from someone 5 times stronger than you should be able to knock you out or leave you in such a state that you would be unable to respond back.

So the change should be fine, there is no reason to hold back the revision, I wouldn't even recommend making a match with a 4x gap between opponents.
Click to expand...
I personally do not mind this change, but what is the staff tally here so far? Take note that calc group members do have voting rights regarding calculation-focused topics.
 
Antvasima said:
I personally do not mind this change, but what is the staff tally here so far? Take note that calc group members do have voting rights regarding calculation-focused topics.
Click to expand...
So about this...
 
Greatsage13th said:
Don't know if this helps with the one shot gap or not. But does this help?
Click to expand...
I don't see the relevance of this. Why do you think it would help?
Antvasima said:
I personally do not mind this change, but what is the staff tally here so far? Take note that calc group members do have voting rights regarding calculation-focused topics.
Click to expand...
On the main topic...

Increase the gap, or say it's only a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head: 1 (Agnaa)

Increase the gap: 1 (Colonel_Krukov)

Say it's only a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head: 0 (Legacy option, in case anyone switches back to this)

Say it's only a "one-shot" that can prevent characters without superhuman stamina from fighting further: 0 (Legacy option, in case anyone switches back to this)

The gap should remain at 7.5x: 4 (Propellus, DontTalkDT, Mr._Bambu, Flashlight237)

The gap should be changed to 5x, and be said to only be a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head/chest: 5 (DarkDragonMedeus, Therefir, DMUA, KLOL506, TheRustyOne)

The gap should be changed to 5x: 1 (Antvasima)



On the topic of invulnerability working different from one-shots...

The gap needed for invulnerability should be increased: 3 (Agnaa, DarkDragonMedeus, Therefir)

Overall:
  • People seem against raising the value for one-shots.
  • People are divided on whether to change the one-shot value to 5x, or leave it at 7.5x.
  • People either seem divided on, or have neglected to mention, whether this "one-shot" value should involve killing the opponent, or just knocking them out.
  • Those who have commented on invulnerability as a separate issue to one-shots seem to think it should require a higher value.

And I feel like I should add that just changing one-shots to involving knocking the opponent out wouldn't solve the issue of previous matches becoming outdated. I believe that a lot of them operated under the assumption that one-shots were deaths (meaning that revival/regeneration/healing came into play, but high stamina didn't), and that a 7.5x AP gap effectively gave invulnerability.
 
Last edited:
Agnaa said:
On the main topic...

Increase the gap, or say it's only a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head: 1 (Agnaa)

Increase the gap: 1 (Colonel_Krukov)

Say it's only a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head: 1 (DMUA)

Say it's only a "one-shot" that can prevent characters without superhuman stamina from fighting further: 1 (KLOL506)

The gap should remain at 7.5x: 3 (Propellus, DontTalkDT, Mr._Bambu)

The gap should be changed to 5x, and be said to only be a "one-shot" that can knock someone out by hitting their head/chest: 2 (DarkDragonMedeus, Therefir)



On the topic of invulnerability working different from one-shots...

The gap needed for invulnerability should be increased: 3 (Agnaa, DarkDragonMedeus, Therefir)

Overall:
  • People seem against raising the value for one-shots.
  • People are divided on whether to change the one-shot value to 5x, or leave it at 7.5x.
  • People either seem divided on, or have neglected to mention, whether this "one-shot" value should involve killing the opponent, or just knocking them out.
  • Those who have commented on invulnerability as a separate issue to one-shots seem to think it should require a higher value.

And I feel like I should add that just changing one-shots to involving knocking the opponent out wouldn't solve the issue of previous matches becoming outdated. I believe that a lot of them operated under the assumption that one-shots were deaths (meaning that revival/regeneration/healing came into play, but high stamina didn't), and that a 7.5x AP gap effectively gave invulnerability.
Click to expand...
@Colonel_Krukov @DMUA @KLOL506 @Propellus @DontTalkDT @Mr._Bambu @DarkDragonMedeus @Therefir @Agnaa

Can you try to reach an agreement here please? Would some kind of compromise solution be possible here?
 
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