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Note: This was a requested thread which has undergone a bit of discussion, beforehand.
As many of you know, DBZ characters from the Buu Saga were previously upgraded to 4-A due to Kid Buu's feat of destroying a galaxy over time. However, I have come to realize that this was a mistake, and one which must be addressed. Almost no other Vs forum/site on the internet has accepted this change. While things like this can often be due to downplay or simply lack of knowledge on the series, in this case it seems we were in fact in the wrong. This thread will address why, and what will happen to the stats of said characters who were previously upgraded.
Firstly, the only reason Kai was accepted as canon was due to it supposedly being a more "faithful adaptation of the manga", not to mention clips from it are used in Super. However, Kai heavily contradicts not only the manga, but Super as well, meaning it is flawed to assume it was made exactly as Toriyama intended. Kai has the character of Pikkon, who exists in neither Super nor the original manga. He is a filler only character kept in because Kai is not 100% filler-free as many people would like to believe. Kai also keeps the anime version of Hell, which contradicts both descriptions from the manga and later events shown in Super. There is also the matter of Frieza, whose experiences in Hell vastly differ between Kai and Super, and only one of them can be canon.
Then there's the matter of Toriyama supposedly verifying Kai as canon, which is simply false. Dragon Ball Super is canon due to Toriyama explicitly saying so. Kai was treated as canon for simply cutting out some filler and being "more faithful". This doesn't really mean much considering the fact that Toriyama himself had little to no involvement in the directing, organizing, or planning of the show. Most choices were those of Toei and Toei alone.
Finally, we come to the issue of scaling, which Kai completely ruins. We have been very, VERY generous in our scaling for DBZ (even upgrading half the series for a feat in a flashback decades after the manga/anime originally ended) and accepting numerous statements. That being said, calling out something that is obviously wrong is not downplay, and 4-A Buu Saga characters are obviously wrong. Even being generous, Super Perfect Cell, the primary antagonist of the previous saga, barely qualifies for the lower bounds of 4-B. In order to be the absolute minimum level of 4-A, Kid Buu would need to be more than a trillion times stronger than Cell. This, in turn, would mean SSJ3 Goku would need to be more than a trillion times stronger than Cell, which even using the most ridiculous multipliers simply doesn't add up. Since we've gone back and adjusted characters based simply on the fact that "Well, them being this weak compared to another character just doesn't make sense", it's downright absurd to ignore the obvious scaling issues brought up by accepting 4-A Kid Buu simply because it buffs the series.
So what does this mean for the characters stats? Well, everybody meaningful in the Buu Saga would be 4-B as opposed to 4-A. I do not want to see any random wanking calling for "At least 4-B" or "4-B+", as to qualify for that, they would still need to be hundreds of billions of times more powerful than Super Perfect Cell, which is obviously not the case. This would also take away any "possibly MFTL" scaling from said galactic destruction feat, as in the manga, Kid Buu was only mentioned to have destroyed many celestial bodies during his rampage, with no talk of obliterating an entire galaxy, which was initially only a visual representation from a filler scene. Essentially, this would require all of DBZ's top tiers to be moved to 4-B with at least FTL+ speeds.
I am aware this is a controversial topic, but please be civil in the comments when giving your opinion. Failure to do so and attempts to derail the thread will be met with a ban.
As many of you know, DBZ characters from the Buu Saga were previously upgraded to 4-A due to Kid Buu's feat of destroying a galaxy over time. However, I have come to realize that this was a mistake, and one which must be addressed. Almost no other Vs forum/site on the internet has accepted this change. While things like this can often be due to downplay or simply lack of knowledge on the series, in this case it seems we were in fact in the wrong. This thread will address why, and what will happen to the stats of said characters who were previously upgraded.
Firstly, the only reason Kai was accepted as canon was due to it supposedly being a more "faithful adaptation of the manga", not to mention clips from it are used in Super. However, Kai heavily contradicts not only the manga, but Super as well, meaning it is flawed to assume it was made exactly as Toriyama intended. Kai has the character of Pikkon, who exists in neither Super nor the original manga. He is a filler only character kept in because Kai is not 100% filler-free as many people would like to believe. Kai also keeps the anime version of Hell, which contradicts both descriptions from the manga and later events shown in Super. There is also the matter of Frieza, whose experiences in Hell vastly differ between Kai and Super, and only one of them can be canon.
Then there's the matter of Toriyama supposedly verifying Kai as canon, which is simply false. Dragon Ball Super is canon due to Toriyama explicitly saying so. Kai was treated as canon for simply cutting out some filler and being "more faithful". This doesn't really mean much considering the fact that Toriyama himself had little to no involvement in the directing, organizing, or planning of the show. Most choices were those of Toei and Toei alone.
Finally, we come to the issue of scaling, which Kai completely ruins. We have been very, VERY generous in our scaling for DBZ (even upgrading half the series for a feat in a flashback decades after the manga/anime originally ended) and accepting numerous statements. That being said, calling out something that is obviously wrong is not downplay, and 4-A Buu Saga characters are obviously wrong. Even being generous, Super Perfect Cell, the primary antagonist of the previous saga, barely qualifies for the lower bounds of 4-B. In order to be the absolute minimum level of 4-A, Kid Buu would need to be more than a trillion times stronger than Cell. This, in turn, would mean SSJ3 Goku would need to be more than a trillion times stronger than Cell, which even using the most ridiculous multipliers simply doesn't add up. Since we've gone back and adjusted characters based simply on the fact that "Well, them being this weak compared to another character just doesn't make sense", it's downright absurd to ignore the obvious scaling issues brought up by accepting 4-A Kid Buu simply because it buffs the series.
So what does this mean for the characters stats? Well, everybody meaningful in the Buu Saga would be 4-B as opposed to 4-A. I do not want to see any random wanking calling for "At least 4-B" or "4-B+", as to qualify for that, they would still need to be hundreds of billions of times more powerful than Super Perfect Cell, which is obviously not the case. This would also take away any "possibly MFTL" scaling from said galactic destruction feat, as in the manga, Kid Buu was only mentioned to have destroyed many celestial bodies during his rampage, with no talk of obliterating an entire galaxy, which was initially only a visual representation from a filler scene. Essentially, this would require all of DBZ's top tiers to be moved to 4-B with at least FTL+ speeds.
I am aware this is a controversial topic, but please be civil in the comments when giving your opinion. Failure to do so and attempts to derail the thread will be met with a ban.
