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Buu Saga Changes

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The real cal howard said:
@Azathoth: I find your bravery in this potential "Winter is Coming" scenario. I agree with everything you said, and I'm pleased to know that someone else is on my side for how good we've been to this.
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Quite a few other forums consider DBZ to max at Large Star level due to refusing any upgrades caused outside the manga. If people want to bitch without providing actual proof or just calling us downplayers, they can go somewhere else.
 
Azathoth is right. I actually don't care nor give a shit on weather we piss people off or not. Especially the fanboys. We're trying as best as we could to be accurate with everything here, and it is true that one cannot please everyone.

Oh and i hope i don't have to get Kavpeny up in here. Seriously even if he already agrees to this, if something starts, i WILL get him to come here.
 
That reminds me. I wonder, who is the president of the site? Kav, DarkLK, or Ant? I've seen them all do some important things, and I just wanted to know who was at the top of the top. Don't get me wrong, I respect and revere all of you Mod's equally. (TBH, I used to think that Azathoth was the founder of the site)
 
That will be my only derailing comment. Buu saga needs a letter downgrade for the fact of inconsistency in the same series, among other things.
 
The real cal howard said:
That reminds me. I wonder, who is the president of the site? Kav, DarkLK, or Ant? I've seen them all do some important things, and I just wanted to know who was at the top of the top. Don't get me wrong, I respect and revere all of you Mod's equally. (TBH, I used to think that Azathoth was the founder of the site)
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There's no real "president". Ant and Kav are the primary bureaucrats and Dark is an incredibly important advisor who helped design the current tiering system.

Also lol at me being the founder.
 
Thanks guys. So, on topic, what are the chances that this gets put into play? I know, more staff, but with the current evaluations, what are the odds? High? Low?
 
The real cal howard said:
Thanks guys. So, on topic, what are the chances that this gets put into play? I know, more staff, but with the current evaluations, what are the odds? High? Low?
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High, as of now.
 
I obviously agree with Azathoth, Lord Kavpeny, and Faisal. We have to strive for accuracy, not to please everybody.

However, somebody will have to adjust the footnotes that I wrote at the bottom of most Dragon Ball pages. Possibly the DBGT footnotes as well.

As for who is "boss" of the site, getting technical, I, Lord Kavpeny, and DarkLK have the same position, but Kavpeny makes most of the strategic and structural decisions for the site, whereas I am too overworked and distracted to be good at that kind of thing, and DarkLK is mostly busy with the Anime Characters Fight wiki, so Kavpeny is the leader in practice, but we try to make everything a team effort, so everybody in the staff have a say.
 
I agree with the downgrade. The gap in power is so astronomically large from 4-B to 4-A that many characters would have been one shotted already. Also, one series having some elements, characters, or scenes from another one doesn't automatically mean the series is as strong or as weak as the series it got it from. With that logic, Luffy and Toriko would be 4-C to High 4-C at least from fighting SSJ Goku in their crossover movie. Scaling doesn't work that way.
 
MarvelFanatic119 said:
I agree with the downgrade. The gap in power is so astronomically large from 4-B to 4-A that many characters would have been one shotted already. Also, one series having some elements, characters, or scenes from another one doesn't automatically mean the series is as strong or as weak as the series it got it from. With that logic, Luffy and Toriko would be 4-C to High 4-C at least from fighting SSJ Goku in their crossover movie. Scaling doesn't work that way.
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The last part in your agruement doesn't make sence or really has relevence that I can tell. (Not that I disagree with your side in the arguement)
 
@SomebodyData

The people here that want to keep the upgrade say it's canon because Super uses elements from Kai, making it canon. But as everyone pointed out, there is no confirmation that Toriyama considers Kai canon. Both series have massively contradicting scales of power, but the fanboys still think this is true. The same can be said about crossover specials, they use the same characters, people, backstories and attacks for each character from their respective series. But obviously the characters are not at their actual level of power nor are they considered canon unless the author of the respective series says so. Otherwise Goku would stomp Toriko and Luffy in base form only instantly realistically speaking. But he goes SSJ while fighting then, which is massive overkill. With the logic that "They used this scene or part from this series, this is canon then.", that either means Toriko and Luffy are Tier 4 at least or Goku's only Tier 6 or 5 at best. Which is obviously wrong and why the DB fanboys thought on canon is wrong. Hope this is makes more sense. If doesn't, well, just know I agree with the downgrade overall.
 
MarvelFanatic119 said:
@SomebodyData
The people here that want to keep the upgrade say it's canon because Super uses elements from Kai, making it canon. But as everyone pointed out, there is no confirmation that Toriyama considers Kai canon.
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But again why would he not consider the supposidly more faithful adaptation canon?
 
MarvelFanatic119 said:
@SomebodyData
The people here that want to keep the upgrade say it's canon because Super uses elements from Kai, making it canon. But as everyone pointed out, there is no confirmation that Toriyama considers Kai canon. Both series have massively contradicting scales of power, but the fanboys still think this is true. The same can be said about crossover specials, they use the same characters, people, backstories and attacks for each character from their respective series. But obviously the characters are not at their actual level of power nor are they considered canon unless the author of the respective series says so. Otherwise Goku would stomp Toriko and Luffy in base form only instantly realistically speaking. But he goes SSJ while fighting then, which is massive overkill. With the logic that "They used this scene or part from this series, this is canon then.", that either means Toriko and Luffy are Tier 4 ast least or Goku's only Tier 6 or 5 at best. Which is obviously wrong and why the DB fanboys thought on canon is wrong. Hope this is makes more sense. If doesn't, well, just know I agree with the downgrade overall.
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Well DB is somewhat known for its contradictions so I wouldn't really blame them, and its obvious that they are not as strong as they normally are in the crossover... but I digress, I believe that with the amount of people on the side of the downgrade, that once a few more staff give their side, we will be ready to go
 
Shock97 said:
But again why would he not consider the supposidly more faithful adaptation canon?
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Because he didn't find it appealing enough or not as faithful? I'm not sure. But if we keep the Kai is canon thing, all the ratings on DB would be horribly messed up in this site. You can always look at the silver lining, even with Buu Saga being downgraded, the current canon still has a good amount of Tier 3 characters. That's something, right?
 
Well, it seems okay to start with the tier adjustments then. However, I would appreciate if somebody could adjust the following footnote explanations at the bottom of the Dragon Ball profiles to an updated text:

"Please note that we are aware of the massive power difference between the Cell Saga and the Buu Saga. The profiles go by the most recent canon, which includes Dragon Ball Kai, in which Kid Buu was visually shown to have destroyed a galaxy over time. In order to do this, he would need to be 4-A, thus leading to the sudden power discrepancy."
 
SomebodyData said:
Well DB is somewhat known for its contradictions so I wouldn't really blame them, and its obvious that they are not as strong as they normally are in the crossover... but I digress, I believe that with the amount of people on the side of the downgrade, that once a few more staff give their side, we will be ready to go
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Yep. I'm pretty sure it'll happen soon anyway. Besides, don't see why the fanboys are so upset? An older arc of DB is being downgraded, but the current one is still as powerful as ever. So still they have that at least.
 
However, after checking, the footnotes at the end of the DBGT and Movie character profiles seem okay.
 
MarvelFanatic119 said:
Shock97 said:
But again why would he not consider the supposidly more faithful adaptation canon?
Click to expand...
Because he didn't find it appealing enough or not as faithful? I'm not sure. But if we keep the Kai is canon thing, all the ratings on DB would be horribly messed up in this site. You can always look at the silver lining, even with Buu Saga being downgraded, the current canon still has a good amount of Tier 3 characters. That's something, right?
Click to expand...
I'm fine with the downgrade it's several of the reasons for the downgrade that I have problems with once we look at other profiles throught the wiki (I think a thread was made about this awhile ago). But the majority rules, I just wanted to see both stances on the issue.
 
So, what should we change the footnote texts to? Something like this?

"Due to considerable contradictions, we do not consider Dragon Ball Kai as part of the main canon, and strictly use the original manga and Dragon Ball Super for scaling the characters."
 
I'm not completely okay with a downgrade (not that stats of the Buu saga matters now anyways), but you bring your reasons, but I need to ask: When we will accept something as "canon" now? canon in DB is all over the place nowadays, but DBS using Kai made it part of the series' continuity (DB, DBKai, DBS)... and yes, it does contradict the manga, but so does DBS, like adding Gregory and other things, but I think we can only say it's "non-canon" when it literally contradicts both "canons", such as Freezer being in Toei's Hell instead of the RoF Hell... because as @Wbaez93 said "Super uses Kai clips" so at least the clips used in DBS should be "canon"... because we cannot disregard everything in Kai and say that all of it is "non-canon" just because something about it contradicts the manga, but not all of it does, because then DBS will also be "non-canon" because it also contradicts it, DBS is retconning the manga in this regard, so unless Kai contradicts both the manga and Super, it should remain being part of the continuity. Thanks for taking the time to read this and sorry for the long post.
 
Okay. I would appreciate if you could replace the earlier quoted footnote texts with that for all the regular continuity/canon DB characters then. The movie and GT characters have another footnote though, and that one seems fine to keep as it is.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Alexcar3000
All clips used in Super are considered canon. The problem is with the ones that aren't.
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Okay, it's just that thinking about what is canon and what is not makes me dizzy, DBS is supposedly a continuation of the manga (meaning, it's canon), but it uses Kai clips, which makes Kai also "kinda" canon, but Kai also does things that contradicts both DBS and the manga, and both Kai and DBS also contradicts the manga... the "canon" is just all over the place, someone needs to send a letter to Toriyama ASAP before my head explodes.
 
Okay. Thanks. Did you change the footnotes for all the other main canon DB profiles as well?
 
well choosing to use manga only I think is a mistake since Super clearly utilizes kai as source material on top of manga. TBH Kai may not have originally been canon, but the current canon of Super draws directly from it with filler only that is in Kai but not the manga included, so ignoring kai sounds like a mistake to me. As for the feat, they do jump in power often to a great degree, (Piccolo being listed as island buster in DB to small planet beginning of Z anybody?) So I don't see an issue with that. But that's my two cents, personally I think kai is canon.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I believe I've changed all relevant profiles.
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I think the "Please note that we are aware of the massive power difference between the Cell Saga and the Buu Saga" note should stay, it was added because Cell & Buu saga chars had the same stats, and when the staff changed the Buu saga chars to 4-A the note stayed there for some reason, now that they have the same stats again it should be there, just to let visitors know.
 
@Alexcar3000 Sorry, but I don't see any logical coherence in your post. If there is no massive jump in tiers there is no reason for the old note to remain. I would appreciate if you would immediately drop this and let Azathoth change the footnotes undisturbed.
 
Just to clarify. Here are the Dragon Ball profiles:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Dragon_Ball

Given that I will be extremely busy with the daily backlog, I would appreciate help with replacing the following text in all the profiles that have it:

"Please note that we are aware of the massive power difference between the Cell Saga and the Buu Saga. The profiles go by the most recent canon, which includes Dragon Ball Kai, in which Kid Buu was visually shown to have destroyed a galaxy over time. In order to do this, he would need to be 4-A, thus leading to the sudden power discrepancy."

The new text should be:

"Due to considerable contradictions, we do not consider Dragon Ball Kai as part of the main canon, and strictly use the original manga and Dragon Ball Super for scaling the characters."

Thank you for any help.
 
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