Buu Saga Changes

[Professor_Voodoo]

ƒæÇ

A DBZ thread. Anyway i agree i guess.

 

[KyofuSama93]

I did, and I told you that Super contradicts the manga itself, but you totally ignored that.

Sorry, but as I said, Super made Kai canon.


If one isn't canon, the other isn't either. Both have inconsistencies.


You can't just say: "Okay, but this one has fewer inconsistencies, so let's made this canon."

a) That's not how it works. Super is canon because Toriyama specifically said so. There is no confirmation for Kai, which he was not directly involved in. Super having things different does not make it non-canon because WoG confirms it is.
b)You have to prove how Super makes Kai canon as opposed to just saying that it is.

a) That's exactly my point! If Toriyama said that the anime is canon, and this anime uses elements from another anime, that makes the other source material canon!

If he had said that the manga that Toyataro is drawing is canon, it would have been entirely different. Blame Toriyama but Super made Kai canon.

And again this "involving" argument? I already told you that that wasn't the reason for the upgrades; it was because Super made Kai canon when using elements of it.

b) No, you're the one looking for a downgrade; you have to prove that just the parts that suit you are canon and the others aren't. That's how it works.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Regardless of whether you think kai is canon or not doesnt change the fact that the feat itself is an outlier.Cell has legitemate powerscaling and feats to put him at solar system level kid buu being at multi-solar system level makes him a trillion times stronger than cell and ssj2 gohan.That doesnt make any sort of sense in terms of scaling.We know ssj2 is a 100x base,ssj3 is 400x base so ssj3 is 4x in terms of a transformation stronger than ssj2.Clearly goku`s base form got stronger than what it was in the cell saga but a trillionx stronger?I dont think so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

a) That's exactly my point! If Toriyama said that the anime is canon, and this anime uses elements from another anime, that makes the other source material canon!

If he had said that the manga that Toyataro is drawing is canon, it would have been entirely different. Blame Toriyama but Super made Kai canon. And again this "involving" argument? I already told you that wasn't the reason for the upgrades; it was because Super made Kai canon when using elements of it.

b) No, you're the one looking for a downgrade; you have to prove that just the parts that suit you are canon and the others aren't. That's how it works.

Having some elements from other anime does not suddenly make the entirety of Kai canon. That's not how it works. What Super has is canon. This does not retroactively make all of Kai canon.

I'm not looking for a downgrade. This is a matter that has been discussed amongst numerous staff members over the past few months. It's because the entire upgrade was a mistake to begin with. There doesn't need to be proof for the downgrade (which I've already provided, anyway). There needs to be proof for the upgrade to be legit, which there never were, in the first place.

 

[Shock97]

I thought we decided not too long ago that Kai was canon because of Super itself?

Yes, which is an incorrect assumption. Super having elements which were originally non-canon does not verify everything as being canon, especially when major differences exist between the two.

But even still the fact that they were included in the first place for an actual successor to DBZ should mean they aren't just considered filler anymore or non-canon. I say the elements that were purposely included could be argued as canon. I'm indifferent right now on the downgrade, but the cannon argument is strange and to be clear you do make valid points in certain spots.

I agree.

 

[SSJGamer99]

Regardless of whether you think kai is canon or not doesnt change the fact that the feat itself is an outlier.Cell has legitemate powerscaling and feats to put him at solar system level kid buu being at multi-solar system level makes him a trillion times stronger than cell and ssj2 gohan.That doesnt make any sort of sense in terms of scaling.We know ssj2 is a 100x base,ssj3 is 400x base so ssj3 is 4x in terms of a transformation stronger than ssj2.Clearly goku`s base form got stronger than what it was in the cell saga but a trillionx stronger?I dont think so.

Isn't Dragon Ball known for huge jumps in power. End of Dragon Ball was Island Level, then the beginning of Dragon Ball Z was Moon Level. Then to Planet, Star, Solar System. It just keeps raising at an insane rate. And even if Buu Saga characters are downgraded, then it's an even bigger jump in power. From Solar System to Universe level.

 

[KyofuSama93]

Regardless of whether you think kai is canon or not doesnt change the fact that the feat itself is an outlier.Cell has legitemate powerscaling and feats to put him at solar system level kid buu being at multi-solar system level makes him a trillion times stronger than cell and ssj2 gohan.That doesnt make any sort of sense in terms of scaling.We know ssj2 is a 100x base,ssj3 is 400x base so ssj3 is 4x in terms of a transformation stronger than ssj2.Clearly goku`s base form got stronger than what it was in the cell saga but a trillionx stronger?I dont think so.

Then how about those profiles of characters that jump from 8-C to 1-C (and absurd amounts like that)?

Anyway, do you seriously believe that they would calculate how strong one has to be compared to the other one to blow up a Galaxy (just an example)?

That's how they portrayed Buu's strength.

DB had absurd jumps (not like the ones I mentioned) from Island level to Planet level. That how DBU works.

Oh, if we'll call that an "outlier", Goku and Beerus' fight was also an "outlier". From SS to Multi Galaxy level. How much is the jump? Please, do the maths.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Regardless of whether you think kai is canon or not doesnt change the fact that the feat itself is an outlier.Cell has legitemate powerscaling and feats to put him at solar system level kid buu being at multi-solar system level makes him a trillion times stronger than cell and ssj2 gohan.That doesnt make any sort of sense in terms of scaling.We know ssj2 is a 100x base,ssj3 is 400x base so ssj3 is 4x in terms of a transformation stronger than ssj2.Clearly goku`s base form got stronger than what it was in the cell saga but a trillionx stronger?I dont think so.

Isn't Dragon Ball known for huge jumps in power. End of Dragon Ball was Island Level, then the beginning of Dragon Ball Z was Moon Level. Then to Planet, Star, Solar System. It just keeps raising at an insane rate. And even if Buu Saga characters are downgraded, then it's an even bigger jump in power. From Solar System to Universe level.

Dragon ball is known for huge power jumps but this power jump you are asking for might be the largest excluding super with its universal feats.We know what level ss2 gohan and cell are on in the cell saga by feats from previous characters and powerscaling.Kid buu`s power jump is not only enormous but also contradictory to established powerscaling.Ssj3 goku is on kid buu`s level and we know ssj3 is a 400x base even with that he is no where close to being a trillionx stronger than cell puttting goku to that level requires too much assumptions and mental gymnastics.You have to prove his base in the buu saga is a trillionx stronger than cell.

 

[KamiYasha]

Classic Downplay-Kun.

Lol

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Classic Downplay-Kun.
Lol

Kami quit being such a Sheoth and lend your opinion. lol

 

[KyofuSama93]

a) That's exactly my point! If Toriyama said that the anime is canon, and this anime uses elements from another anime, that makes the other source material canon!

If he had said that the manga that Toyataro is drawing is canon, it would have been entirely different. Blame Toriyama but Super made Kai canon. And again this "involving" argument? I already told you that wasn't the reason for the upgrades; it was because Super made Kai canon when using elements of it.

b) No, you're the one looking for a downgrade; you have to prove that just the parts that suit you are canon and the others aren't. That's how it works.

Having some elements from other anime does not suddenly make the entirety of Kai canon. That's not how it works. What Super has is canon. This does not retroactively make all of Kai canon.
I'm not looking for a downgrade. This is a matter that has been discussed amongst numerous staff members over the past few months. It's because the entire upgrade was a mistake to begin with. There doesn't need to be proof for the downgrade (which I've already provided, anyway). There needs to be proof for the upgrade to be legit, which there never were, in the first place.

1) Yes, it does. I will use your words. "WoG" says that Super is canon, which uses elements of another anime. "WoG" should have said that the manga is "canon".

Therefore, or we say that "WoG" means nothing, or we say that "WoG" means something, which means that Super and Kai are indeed canon.

2) You said that the upgrade was because, I quote: "the only reason Kai was accepted as canon was due to it supposedly being a more "faithful adaptation of the manga" and "Then there's the matter of Toriyama supposedly verifying Kai as canon", which is entirely false.

I told you like four times that it was because Super used elements of Kai.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Kai was NEVER canon in the first place. NEVER. Canon is determined by word of author. Super having a filler scene doesn't make the ENTIRE Kai canon. Same reason could be used to make DBZ canon. Fact is, neither is canon. Kai is no different from DBZ. It was never intended to be canon. Neither Toei claimed that, nor did Toriyama

Toriyama had zero involvement with Kai. The way he made Hell in Kai CAN NOT fit with DBS Absolutely no way. There is zero justification for putting Buu saga characters at 4A based on 1 filler feat.

So I agree with Azathoth completely

 

[KyofuSama93]

Kai was NEVER canon in the first place. NEVER. Canon is determined by word of author. Super having a filler scene doesn't make the ENTIRE Kai canon. Same reason could be used to make DBZ canon. Fact is, neither is canon.
Toriyama had zero involvement with Kai. The way he made Hell in Kai CAN NOT fit with DBS Absolutely no way. There is zero justification for putting Buu saga characters at 4A based on 1 filler feat.

So I agree with Azathoth completely

The fact is that Toriyama made it canon at the moment he made an anime of DB canon, even if it didn't come out of his mouth.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

The entire first post is about why Super being canon doesn't make Kai canon. For the last time, we need more substantial evidence.

 

[Shock97]

Quick question did Akira ever state the DBZ anime was non-canon?

 

[SSJGamer99]

All I have to put out is the Kid Buu feat. Within a span of a few years maybe, he gradually destroyed an entire Galaxy. This feat was shown in both Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Z Kai for all I know, I never watched the Buu saga for Kai. But the feat was shown in Z, so even if Kai isn't canon, the feat still is from Z.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

The fact is that Toriyama made it canon at the moment he made an anime of DB canon, even if it didn't come out of his mouth.

If Toriyama made Kai canon, he would have scaled DBS characters based on Kai's fillers. He did not. He didn't even fix the hell. Frieza in Kai is fodder with no potential. Frieza in DBS is a completely different character.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Quick question did Akira ever state the DBZ anime was non-canon?

He didn't need to. It wasn't made by him, but by Toei. There's also the fact it contradicts things within the manga, which he did indeed write. The reason Super is canon even though Akira himself isn't the only person writing everything is because he confirmed it to be a continuation of the manga, which is what he wrote.

 

[KyofuSama93]

snip

The entire first post is about why Super being canon doesn't make Kai canon. For the last time, we need more substantial evidence.

Mr. Satan's fighters appearing on Super. Do you need any more proof than that? Super retconned the manga.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Quick question did Akira ever state the DBZ anime was non-canon?

That's not how it works, author has to say what is canon. Did Toriyama say Xenoverse is non canon? Or Shin Budokai? Now what? We bump all chars to 2C? That's not how canon is verified

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Mr. Satan's fighters appearing on Super. Do you need any more proof than that? Super retconned the manga.

Super didn't retcon the manga. It's a continuation of the manga. The only reason Satan's fighters are canon is because Toriyama said so.

 

[KyofuSama93]

The fact is that Toriyama made it canon at the moment he made an anime of DB canon, even if it didn't come out of his mouth.

If Toriyama made Kai canon, he would have scaled DBS characters based on Kai's fillers. He did not. He didn't even fix the hell. Frieza in Kai is fodder with no potential. Frieza in DBS is a completely different character.
Then why do Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Mr. Satan's fighters appearing on Super. Do you need any more proof than that? Super retconned the manga.

Only the part that has appeared in Super can be considered canon. Not all fillers. Toriyama had ZERO involvement with Kai. Until Buu flashback appears in DBS, it's non canon. Simple as that

 

[SSJGamer99]

Mr. Satan's fighters appearing on Super. Do you need any more proof than that? Super retconned the manga.

Super didn't retcon the manga. It's a continuation of the manga. The only reason Satan's fighters are canon is because Toriyama said so.

Toriyama never said they were canon, they just showed up in Super, like the feat from Kai and Z.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The difference between kid buu`s feat and goku and beerus is that beerus was protrayed to be massively above anything that we had seen before in the series while holding back. While kid is stronger than cell saga characters he is comparable to buu saga characters but again it contradicts with established multipliers for said characters.We know ssj3 is a 400x base multiplier and with that there is no way ssj3 goku is a trillion times stronger than cell unless his base form was a trillion times stronger than cell which there is no evidence for.For example we know gohan got weaker than his ssj2 teen self but do you seriously think a base goku could take a ssj2 gohan? Ssg was a new form above anything we had seen before as it was needed to combat beerus and even at its best still couldnt beat him that just goes to show just how above everything before beerus is.And we still dont have an official multiplier for it which allows us to allow for huge feats such as the universal shaking feat because it was an unknown form.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Then why do Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super?

Because Toriyama gave permission? That doesn't make DB Kai canon. Toriyama never said so

 

[Sheoth]

Classic Downplay-Kun.
Lol

Kami quit being such a Sheoth and lend your opinion. lol

I am offended by the truth of this statement.

I agree with the thread.

 

[Shock97]

Quick question did Akira ever state the DBZ anime was non-canon?

That's not how it works, author has to say what is canon. Did Toriyama say Xenoverse is non canon? Or Shin Budokai? Now what? We bump all chars to 2C? That's not how canon is verified

No but still using what you said above if canon is determined by a direct author confirmation what do you do when nothing is said? Right now it seems at this point we go by our own rules... Not saying anyone should be bumped to 2C like your saying, but you should see the flaw here. He never said anything regarding the canon of the DBZ anime, even with all the differences and such he never said anything in regards to it being canon or not. If he truly thought of the original anime adaptation as non-canon he would have said something like he did when addressing the movies. Ergo how does that rule work?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

He never said anything regarding the canon of the DBZ anime, even with all the differences and such he never said anything in regards to it being canon or not. Ergo how does that rule work?

Author's original work, which is in this case the manga, takes precedence.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

The difference between kid buu`s feat and goku and beerus is that beerus was protrayed to be massively above anything that we had seen before in the series while holding back. While kid is stronger than cell saga characters he is comparable to buu saga characters but again it contradicts with established multipliers for said characters.We know ssj3 is a 400x base multiplier and with that there is no way ssj3 goku is a trillion times stronger than cell unless his base form was a trillion times stronger than cell which there is no evidence for.For example we know gohan got weaker than his ssj2 teen self but do you seriously think a base goku could take a ssj2 gohan? Ssg was a new form above anything we had seen before as it was needed to combat beerus and even at its best still couldnt beat him that just goes to show just how above everything before beerus is.And we still dont have an official multiplier for it which allows us to allow for huge feats such as the universal shaking feat because it was an unknown form.

Thanks for mentioning the scaling inconsistency Celestial.

 

[KyofuSama93]

Then why do Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super?

Because Toriyama gave permission? That doesn't make DB Kai canon. Toriyama never said so
He never said that either, or can you show me an interview where he states that he gave permission to include Mr. Satan's fighters?

Even if you come up with something like: "I don't need to, he says that Super is canon."

I can just say the same with the elements of Kai that were shown in Super.

Toriyama, consciously or unconsciously, made DBZ Kai canon when he decided to leave the continuation up to Toei. He's the one to blame.

 

[SSJGamer99]

Then why do Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super?

Because Toriyama gave permission? That doesn't make DB Kai canon. Toriyama never said so

He never said that either, or can you show me an interview where he states that he gave permission to include Mr. Satan's fighters?
Even if you come up with something like: "I don't need to, he says that Super is canon."

I can just say the same with the elements of Kai that were shown in Super.

Toriyama, consciously or unconsciously, made DBZ Kai canon when he decided to leave the continuation up to Toei. He's the one to blame.

Am I the only one here who agrees with Wbaez93?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Toriyama, consciously or unconsciously, made DBZ Kai canon when he decided to leave the continuation up to Toei. He's the one to blame.

You cannot keep stating this interpretation like it's fact.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

No but still using what you said above if canon is determined by a direct author confirmation what do you do when nothing is said? Ergo how does that rule work?

When nothing is said, we use the primary source material. Or stuff that HAS been verified by the author. Kai heavily contradicted DBS in this regard.

Toriyama has never talked about Kai, so it's all moot in the first place

 

[KyofuSama93]

By the way, your post starts badly from the moment you say that "the only reason Kai was accepted as canon was due to it supposedly being a more "faithful adaptation of the manga"

You didn't show me yet any screenshot of people saying that. I remember quite well that debate, and nobody ever said that.

The truth is that it was accepted because Super used elements of Kai. Not the reason that you mentioned.

 

[SSJGamer99]

Toriyama, consciously or unconsciously, made DBZ Kai canon when he decided to leave the continuation up to Toei. He's the one to blame.

You cannot keep stating this interpretation like it's fact.

In Super, it's a flashback if I remember correctly. That would mean it is from their past. That would have to make it at least somewhat canon. To me personally, I believe Dragon Ball Super is a combo of the Manga and Anime of Dragon Ball Z, makes sense.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

He never said that either, or can you show me an interview where he states that he gave permission to include Mr. Satan's fighters?

Even if you come up with something like: "I don't need to, he says that Super is canon."

I can just say the same with the elements of Kai that were shown in Super.

Toriyama, consciously or unconsciously, made DBZ Kai canon when he decided to leave the continuation up to Toei. He's the one to blame.

The interview is in Kanzenshuu where he says DBS is canon. He said no such thing for Kai.

Had Toriyama intended to make Kai canon, he would not have changed Frieza's hell scene. A filler can not clash with canon. Kai's filler can not go with DBS.

 

[Pocket-Chu]

I think everyone's stats should stay the way they are. But hey that's just my opinion.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

To me personally, I believe Dragon Ball Super is a combo of the Manga and Anime of Dragon Ball Z, makes sense.

Not until Toriyama says so personally. Kai and its fillers will be kept from Super since they create massive inconsistency

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Wbaez

No, that was quite clearly one of the reasons.

Your posts are beginning to just become evidence of bias for the upgrade, and that's something we can't tolerate. Please provide legitimate proof for the canonicity of ALL of Kai being canon and not just restating the same thing over and over.