Buu Saga Changes

[KyofuSama93]

He never said that either, or can you show me an interview where he states that he gave permission to include Mr. Satan's fighters?

Even if you come up with something like: "I don't need to, he says that Super is canon."
I can just say the same with the elements of Kai that were shown in Super.

Toriyama, consciously or unconsciously, made DBZ Kai canon when he decided to leave the continuation up to Toei. He's the one to blame.

The interview is in Kanzenshuu where he says DBS is canon. He said no such thing for Kai.
Had Toriyama intended to make Kai canon, he would not have changed Frieza's hell scene. A filler can not clash with canon. Kai's filler can not go with DBS.

What did I say?

Even if you come up with something like: "I don't need to, he says that Super is canon."

I can just say the same with the elements of Kai that were shown in Super. Super retconned both the manga and DBZ Kai, what's the problem?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

In Kai's hell, Frieza said in ep 54 (around 6:29) after seeing Goku and Buu fight on the orb "shatter my dreams of ruling the universe, will you?" Whereas after being revived in DBS frieza said exactly the opposite after hearing Goku beating Buu, that he will grow stronger than Goku in just 4 months. Which he did and stomped SSB Goku.

DB Kai and DBS Frieza can not be the same character for this very reason. Their story and power potential are COMPLETELY different. Not only Kai is non canon, but it heavily contradicts the source material by Toriyama.

 

[SSJGamer99]

@Wbaez
No, that was quite clearly one of the reasons.

Your posts are beginning to just become evidence of bias for the upgrade, and that's something we can't tolerate. Please provide legitimate proof for the canonicity of ALL of Kai being canon and not just restating the same thing over and over.

We don't need to prove Kai is canon, just that the feat is. It is in Dragon Ball Z and Kai. And if I remember correctly, Toriyama said that Dragon Ball is the Manga and the Anime. I'll go looking for it to make sure.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So what's the acceptance:rejection rate so far?

For now, count me out of this. *cough* (I agree with this. Many other series with far looser canon don't have their adaptations as primary canon, for example, Kirby.) *cough*

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

We don't need to prove Kai is canon, just that the feat is. It is in Dragon Ball Z and Kai. And if I remember correctly, Toriyama said that Dragon Ball is the Manga and the Anime. I'll go looking for it to make sure.

Yes, and ALL the evidence for the feat being canon and usable has been that Kai is canon.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Super retconning manga and Super retconning Kai are not the same thing. Kai is first and foremost work by Toei animation. All scenes in Kai that's not in manga are filler. Kai was never acknowledged by Toriyama. Toriyama had zero input with Kai. Whatever small elements of filler is seen in the manga, is canonized by Super. Super does not canonize the whole Kai

There is no difference between DB Kai and DBZ. Both are the same in terms of canonicity. Not to mention it heavily contradicts DBS, and can not possibly fit in the same timeline for scaling and continuity error

 

[KyofuSama93]

@Wbaez
No, that was quite clearly one of the reasons.

Your posts are beginning to just become evidence of bias for the upgrade, and that's something we can't tolerate. Please provide legitimate proof for the canonicity of ALL of Kai being canon and not just restating the same thing over and over.

I already gave my evidence that not you nor anybody could argue without resorting to assumptions.

Why did Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super if DBZ Kai isn't canon?

P.S.: The Yang needs to have its Yin.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I already gave my evidence that not you nor anybody could argue without resorting to assumptions.

Why did Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super if DBZ Kai isn't canon?

P.S.: The Yang needs to have its Yin.

No, the ENTIRETY of your argument is an assumption. You assume all of DB Kai is canon because Super made some things from Kai canon. That is not proof, and this is your final warning.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I already gave my evidence that not you nor anybody could argue without resorting to assumptions.

Why did Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super if DBZ Kai isn't canon?
P.S.: The Yang needs to have its Yin.
You're still going on in circles. You haven't provided a single explanation for the scaling issues Celestial Pegasus mentioned. Nor the massive contradiction with Hell. How do you explain Frieza being in flower hell and with Cell at the same time?

Answer: You don't, because Frieza's not supposed to. Kai's filler directly contradicted with Toriyama's OWN work. That alone kills all credibility of Kai being the same continuity as DBS. It's completely impossible

 

[Shock97]

Alright it's getting heated but can this be answered clearly, please so this can be put to rest?

"Why did Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super if DBZ Kai isn't canon?"

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Alright it's getting heated but can this be answered clearly, please so this can be put to rest?
"Why did Mr. Satan's fighters appear on Super if DBZ Kai isn't canon?"

Because Super made it. Whatever element Super shows, is canon. That doesn't make the whole DB Kai canon.

DB Kai brings more inconsistency to DBS than it brings consistency. It's a completely separate continuity

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Contradiction To Primary Source.

 

[KyofuSama93]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/126971

That's my last post since Azathoth doesn't want me to continue writing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/126971
That's my last post since Azathoth doesn't want me to continue writing.

You know Kav is the one who ordered this thread, right?

By the way, you can keep writing, just not continue posting the same thing over and over without any proof.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Wbaez93 and everyone else who agrees with leaving the profiles as is.

For all intents and purposes, Dragon Ball Super is using plenty of elements not created by Toriyama, scenes from Dragon Ball Kai as flashbacks and for being aired as a direct replacement to Buu Kai.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/126971That's my last post since Azathoth doesn't want me to continue writing.

From Lord Kavpeny's Dragon Ball power rankings thread

"I would like to mention, that the present revision will entail the canon Dragon Ball ratings, and will be determined via primary and secondary Dragon Ball canon material only.

Primary canon:

• Dragon Ball manga
• Dragon Ball Super (anime)
• Dragon Ball Kai (if it doesn't contradict the manga)"

Guess what, Kai directly contradicted Toriyama's original source work. There's nothing left to be discussed.

 

[KyofuSama93]

Indeed, and Super used a contradictory element from Kai. So...

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I agree with Wbaez93 and everyone else who agrees with leaving the profiles as is.
For all intents and purposes, Dragon Ball Super is using plenty of elements not created by Toriyama, scenes from Dragon Ball Kai as flashbacks and for being aired as a direct replacement to Buu Kai.

And none of those makes Kai canon. Only the thing shown in Super can be considered canon

This is not even considering the massive power scaling inconsistency and direct contradiction to primary source work.

 

[SSJGamer99]

I'm just gonna say, that Dragon Ball Super Anime contriadicts the Manga. Like adding in new characters for a quick example, like Gregory and I think the Mr. Satan Fighters. You can't nit pick and take only what you want from the anime and say that's that. Gregory is from the anime, and he is now in the canon Dragon Ball Super anime. So he can't be just the only thing that is now canon from the anime, other things should be too. Except maybe fillers that contradict the Manga.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm just gonna say, that Dragon Ball Super Anime contriadicts the Manga. Like adding in new characters for a quick example, like Gregory and I think the Mr. Satan Fighters. You can't nit pick and take only what you want from the anime and say that's that. Gregory is from the anime, and he is now in the canon Dragon Ball Super anime. So he can't be just the only thing that is now canon from the anime, other things should be too. Except maybe fillers that contradict the Manga.

The Super Anime is the primary Super canon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Wbaez93 and everyone else who agrees with leaving the profiles as is.
For all intents and purposes, Dragon Ball Super is using plenty of elements not created by Toriyama, scenes from Dragon Ball Kai as flashbacks and for being aired as a direct replacement to Buu Kai.

And none of those makes Kai canon. Only the thing shown in Super can be considered canon
This is not even considering the massive power scaling inconsistency and direct contradiction to primary source work.

What inconsistency?

What's so bad about the Powerscaling?

Dragon Ball has Island level to Moon level. from DB to DBZ, and from DBZ to DBS it has Multi-Solar System to Multi-Galaxy level, which is an even bigger gap in power. It doesn't matter if Toriyama wanted Buu Goku to be just 10 or so times stronger than before, we're using what's shown.

 

[LordAizenSama]

not that it matters whether it's canon or not, the pure inconsistency this creates is worthy in and of itself of being called inconsistent, it completely ruins the coherency between the Cell and Buu saga

So I agree with this.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I'm just gonna say, that Dragon Ball Super Anime contriadicts the Manga. Like adding in new characters for a quick example, like Gregory and I think the Mr. Satan Fighters. You can't nit pick and take only what you want from the anime and say that's that. Gregory is from the anime, and he is now in the canon Dragon Ball Super anime. So he can't be just the only thing that is now canon from the anime, other things should be too. Except maybe fillers that contradict the Manga.

That's a completely different case, that doesn't make DB Kai canon. Gregory was in the DB movies too. Now DB movies are canon as well or what?

Whatever DBS shows us can be considered canon because Toriyama said so. That doesn't make DB Kai canon which contradicts Toriyama's primary source work directly

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The difference is that they're entirely different series. The gaps haven't been that large changing sagas ever, and that even goes for Super.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Here's something: Harley Quinn got a major canon update, greater than the cameos DBS has done by far. There's also the case for Plasmius and Cynderblock becoming canon from the Teen Titans show. Does that make the DCAU the primary canon? No.

 

[Shock97]

Okay I wanna add that in my opinion powerscaling inconsistency shouldn't be used as reasoning for the downgrade. We have numerous profiles here for characters that went from being ants to suddenly Gods of the universe in comparison. That and DB is know for massive power jumps.

 

[SSJGamer99]

I'm just gonna say, that Dragon Ball Super Anime contriadicts the Manga. Like adding in new characters for a quick example, like Gregory and I think the Mr. Satan Fighters. You can't nit pick and take only what you want from the anime and say that's that. Gregory is from the anime, and he is now in the canon Dragon Ball Super anime. So he can't be just the only thing that is now canon from the anime, other things should be too. Except maybe fillers that contradict the Manga.

The Super Anime is the primary Super canon.

By the Manga and the Anime, I mean the Dragon Ball Manga and Dragon Ball Z Anime. And I get tat the Super Anime is primary canon, but it has Gregory in it, who is from the apparent non-canon anime Dragon Ball Z. It doesn't make sense for only adding one character from non-canon and ending it there. And the scenes/flashbacks with that too. If it takes from it multiple times, I think it should be considered part of its canon too. Just my opinon, also state why it might not be, cause I might be wrong, I might not be. That's what this thread is about.

 

[LordAizenSama]

in other words, the way the profiles are now, Base Buu Saga Goku would be able to curbstomp Super Perfect Cell something like millions or billions of times over, SSJ2 Gohan would also be that much weaker than Base Goku, also when SSJ2 Gohan Ki got absorbed by Babidi to feed to Buu? that filled about 1/5 of his power, meaning Goku would also curbstomp fat buu, in base, millions of times over, at least.

If you were a true fan of the series you would know that is just not right.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

in other words, the way the profiles are now, Base Buu Saga Goku would be able to curbstomp Super Perfect Cell something like millions or billions of times over, SSJ2 Gohan would also be that much weaker than Base Goku, also when SSJ2 Gohan Ki got absorbed by Babidi to feed to Buu? that filled about 1/5 of his power, meaning Goku would also curbstomp fat buu, in base, millions of times over, at least.
If you were a true fan of the series you would know that is just not right.

Pretty much base buu saga goku would be able to curbstomp spc a trillion times over and ssj2 gohan a trillion times weaker than base goku.Its pretty absurd

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Agreed with LordAizen and Celestial Pegasus

 

[LordAizenSama]

Indeed Celestial, it's just not acceptable at all really. and it was a trillion was it? even higher than I thought it was.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Indeed Celestial, it's just not acceptable at all really. and it was a trillion was it? even higher than I thought it was.

The difference between the lowest bounds of 4-B and the lowest bounds of 4-A is approximately 1.008 trillion times.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea the gap between solar system level and multi-solar system level is 1.008 trillion times

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So, what's the consensus?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So, what's the consensus?

Wait a while for more staff.

And though he isn't present for this, Kav has already given his approval, so there's that.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

So, what's the consensus?

4 admins, 4 mods, and 8 regular users agree with the downgrade so far

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Ok. BTW, if this happens, a lot of people are gonna be pissed off. I mean, I couldn't give a care in the world, but, we'd have opened Pandora's Box.

For the record, just wanted to know the ratio of agree to reject

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ok. BTW, if this happens, a lot of people are gonna be pissed off. I mean, I couldn't give a care in the world, but, we'd have opened Pandora's Box.
For the record, just wanted to know the ratio of agree to reject

I honestly couldn't care less. We strive to be accurate, not to please everyone. We've been very, very good with Dragon Ball (which many forums aren't), so being accurate is only seen as downplaying by raging fanboys.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Faisal: Thanks, o' king of tier defyers

@Azathoth: I find your bravery in this potential "Winter is Coming" scenario. I agree with everything you said, and I'm pleased to know that someone else is on my side for how good we've been to this.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Ok. BTW, if this happens, a lot of people are gonna be pissed off. I mean, I couldn't give a care in the world, but, we'd have opened Pandora's Box.
For the record, just wanted to know the ratio of agree to reject

VBW is probably the most major Dragon Ball friendly forum on the internet, we have accepted almost every single upgrade without much question. However glaring inconsistency like this can't be ignored. As Azathoth said, we have be reasonable. If fanboys feel raged, it's not our problem.

Edit: you're welcome