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I have some mixed thoughts atm but may comment later.
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Cell Games/Buu Saga Scaling Chain Upgrade
- Thread starter Nullflowerblush
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- dragon ball
Nullflowerblush
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- #42
bump
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,782
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- #43
bump
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Can you give me a reminder for why this is the case?
Nullflowerblush
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Sorry about that, that is a mistake. The chain was copied off of the main one, but Goku is supposed to scale directly from Super Trunks, not from Piccolo or the Supreme Kai.
Nullflowerblush
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How close does a value need to be to upscale? Because SSJ Gohan's 20.479099494 Foe is 1.11186529x from baseline 4-B.
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That gap seems small enough for an upscale
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If SSJ Gohans value is from a multiplier then I don't think we should be upscaling him.
Nullflowerblush
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What about Cell and Dabura, then, considering they are able of effortlessly exchanging blows with Gohan while holding back?
Eden_Warlock99
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He's already leagues above the first value tho
Since it comes from Piccolo, who's "dimensions apart" from the Supreme Kai, and Gohan has quite some upscaling from the Supreme Kai
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seems to make sense
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Given we accepted the Ultra Super Saiyan multiplier as have 10x more raw power than regular SSJ with SSJ2 being much higher even with just half as much. I think 1000x is a fair lowball for a SSJ2 multiplier for AP, but I'm of course for reasons mentioned iffy about treating the speed multiplier as anything higher than 50x though it should still be higher than regular SSJ. And of course, I'm more so only okay with using the numerals for tier jumping upgrades, not a big fan of doing the opposite or downscaling.
And yeah, Cell's "Ultra form" is more so similar to going from Grade 2 SSJ to Grade 3 SSJ in which it's a 10x AP multiplier but actually a reduction in speed. And implied it could turn the tables against Grade 3 Trunks.
But I might need a refreshed memory the steps for how Cell saga Goku or in turn base Teen Gohan compares to Piccolo or Shin. I know I heard the latter is stronger in base, but Goku is being used as even half his strength is above everyone else save Gohan's?
And yeah, Cell's "Ultra form" is more so similar to going from Grade 2 SSJ to Grade 3 SSJ in which it's a 10x AP multiplier but actually a reduction in speed. And implied it could turn the tables against Grade 3 Trunks.
But I might need a refreshed memory the steps for how Cell saga Goku or in turn base Teen Gohan compares to Piccolo or Shin. I know I heard the latter is stronger in base, but Goku is being used as even half his strength is above everyone else save Gohan's?
Nullflowerblush
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Goku does not.
Gohan, whose strength stagnated between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu Conflict, Buu Saga Goku, and Buu Saga Vegeta all upscale from the Supreme Kai.
His chain is separate from the main one, because I have no idea where to put him.
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Base Buu Saga Gohan, who is =< his Cell Saga self, is above Shin, as are Base Goku and Vegeta like Nullflower said.
To quote Nullflower's other thread:
- Even knowing the might of his Supreme Kai, Kibito viewed a fraction of the Ki that Gohan possessed to be "immeasurable"
- Dabura believed the three Saiyans, including Gohan, combined, could deliver enough energy to fully revivify Majin Buu, implying comparability
- Gohan participated in the rock-paper-scissors match to decide the one to take on Pui-Pui, and Vegeta considered him part of the "strongest beings in existence"
- Babidi was weary of the three Saiyans altogether, disregarding the Supreme Kai entirely, enough to send out Yakon immediately after Pui-Pui
- In the presence of the mighty Yakon, Gohan was able to remain level-headed and confident, whereas the Supreme Kai immediately rallied for an ambush with the group's combined forces
- Gohan was confident that if he assisted Goku, the two could have taken on Yakon without even their Super Saiyan forms, as Yakon directly countered said powers
- Even after the battle, having witnessed Pui-Pui at his strongest, Gohan still considered the trials Babidi orchestrated to be similar to a video game
- By the time Dabura appeared, the Supreme Kai was left thoroughly amazed by the power of the three Saiyans, viewing their strength as impossible for "mere mortals" despite their relaxed states
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Why? Gohan's profile doesn't currently have a justification for his base form.
EDIT: never mind. Eseseso posted why.
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I just took it from Null's other thread.
But yeah, it's obvious that all of pre-Kai training Gohan's forms are below their Cell Saga selves.
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I recall past discussion that Base Gohan Buu Saga = Cell Games Base Gohan, SSJ1 Gohan Buu Saga = SSJ1 Cell Games Base Gohan, but SSJ2 Buu Saga Gohan < SSJ2 Teen Gohan by a significant margin.
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That's about right.
Nullflowerblush
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The difference is never presented as significant, but Goku and Vegeta remark that Gohan was "better" in his youth, with Gohan confirming that he lacked the anger to draw out its full power. But that does not affect the scaling chain.
I never got around to applying it.
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I apologize for copying your stuff.
Nullflowerblush
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No worries, I just wanted to apologize for copying your other thread without asking you first.
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I will admit that I do find this to be a bit sketchy.
That Cell that fought Super Trunks is being directly compared to Super Trunks for "hurting him" but it's clear that Trunks is allowing Cell to hit him and lead him away from the unconscious Vegeta. Cell also admits that Super Trunks power is greater than his by a wide margin (with Piccolo further backing up that statement).
After being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and growing stronger, Piccolo himself admits that he can't do much against Cell. The only Cell he'd be able to reference being the version that fought Super Trunks.
When the canditate for Goku's successor comes up in the battle against Cell, Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks but not Piccolo, suggesting Piccolo isn't comparable to them (and by extension, the Cell Jrs.).
In the original manga it is mentioned that only Trunks and Vegeta are able to hold their own against the Cell Jrs. No mention to Piccolo. Even if Piccolo was able to stay up on his feet against them, that doesn't prove he can hurt them and the Cell Jrs. could stomp the likes of Yamcha, Tien and Krillin without those three being anywhere near as powerful as the Cell Jrs. and still leave the three of them aive.
So, to be clear, I think that that version of Cell that fought Trunks shouldn't be directly scaled to him. And Piccolo has two or three points that suggest against scaling him directly to the Cells Jrs. / the version of Cell that Trunks fought.
@DarkDragonMedeus Do you think these are fair points?
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Some mostly, but Piccolo has at least been compared to the SSJ Vegeta who fought Semi-Perfect Cell at least. He isn't quite the level of Trunks or Vegeta and certainly not Goku's level, but he's not overwhelmingly below them as Trunks seemed impressed by his growth in the RoSaT.
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I mean right now we scale him to his durability which states that he was the only one besides Vegeta and Trunks who could take hits from the Cell Jrs.
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I know, I referenced that.
Nullflowerblush
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Piccolo is shown defending against a Cell Junior in the panel where Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks, and is shown in a similar condition to the two by the time Gohan transformed.
This was after Korin revealed he had a "sense" of Cell's true power and confirmed to Goku that Cell was stronger, even after his training. Goku was likely comparing Piccolo to the estimation that Korin provided.
Eden_Warlock99
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The statement came from Piccolo before Goku.
And I still think that there's not enough to say that Piccolo >~ Super Trunks which is what the current scaling chain suggests. I still think my point about Cell compared to Super Trunks is a valid issue.
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It was rejected somewhere in this thread for being stupid.
Eden_Warlock99
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20 Pages
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So is incredulity the only reason it got rejected? Seems to be a common trend amongst rejected dragon ball stuff.
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SSJ Goku was implied to have been capable of easily killing Shin when he got in the way of Goku vs Vegeta IIRC.
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Yeah, but that’s Buu Arc SSJ Goku. The comparison is Shin and Cell Arc SSJ Goku.
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Oh, ok, I misunderstood.
Nullflowerblush
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The Trunks that the El Manga Legendario excerpt was referring to was the Trunks before Vegeta was removed from the battlefield, before he powered up, and before his Ki exceeded Cell's. Not only that, but Goku and Daizenshuu 7 explain that inflating the muscles is what provides Third Grade with its strength, meaning that the Trunks Cell managed to visibly damage, knock away, and exchange blows with as he stalled for Vegeta scales to the 9789.45046 Quettatons value.
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I wouldn't really call that visible damage.
And knocking him away hardly counts because Trunks was leading Cell away. He was allowing himself to be knocked back.
Nullflowerblush
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His empty, shaky pupils are proof that Trunks took real damage from that punch.
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i mean, if he was trying to lead cell away, couldn't he just be pretending to lead cell away?
