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Cell Games/Buu Saga Scaling Chain Upgrade

How close does a value need to be to upscale? Because SSJ Gohan's 20.479099494 Foe is 1.11186529x from baseline 4-B.
 
If SSJ Gohans value is from a multiplier then I don't think we should be upscaling him.
 
What about Cell and Dabura, then, considering they are able of effortlessly exchanging blows with Gohan while holding back?
 
Damage3245 said:
If SSJ Gohans value is from a multiplier then I don't think we should be upscaling him.
Click to expand...
He's already leagues above the first value tho
Since it comes from Piccolo, who's "dimensions apart" from the Supreme Kai, and Gohan has quite some upscaling from the Supreme Kai
 
Given we accepted the Ultra Super Saiyan multiplier as have 10x more raw power than regular SSJ with SSJ2 being much higher even with just half as much. I think 1000x is a fair lowball for a SSJ2 multiplier for AP, but I'm of course for reasons mentioned iffy about treating the speed multiplier as anything higher than 50x though it should still be higher than regular SSJ. And of course, I'm more so only okay with using the numerals for tier jumping upgrades, not a big fan of doing the opposite or downscaling.

And yeah, Cell's "Ultra form" is more so similar to going from Grade 2 SSJ to Grade 3 SSJ in which it's a 10x AP multiplier but actually a reduction in speed. And implied it could turn the tables against Grade 3 Trunks.

But I might need a refreshed memory the steps for how Cell saga Goku or in turn base Teen Gohan compares to Piccolo or Shin. I know I heard the latter is stronger in base, but Goku is being used as even half his strength is above everyone else save Gohan's?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But I might need a refreshed memory the steps for how Cell saga Goku or in turn base Teen Gohan compares to Piccolo or Shin.
Click to expand...
Goku does not.
Gohan, whose strength stagnated between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu Conflict, Buu Saga Goku, and Buu Saga Vegeta all upscale from the Supreme Kai.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I know I heard the latter is stronger in base, but Goku is being used as even half his strength is above everyone else save Gohan's?
Click to expand...
His chain is separate from the main one, because I have no idea where to put him.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But I might need a refreshed memory the steps for how Cell saga Goku or in turn base Teen Gohan compares to Piccolo or Shin. I know I heard the latter is stronger in base, but Goku is being used as even half his strength is above everyone else save Gohan's?
Click to expand...
Base Buu Saga Gohan, who is =< his Cell Saga self, is above Shin, as are Base Goku and Vegeta like Nullflower said.

To quote Nullflower's other thread:
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Goku does not.
Gohan, whose strength stagnated between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu Conflict, Buu Saga Goku, and Buu Saga Vegeta all upscale from the Supreme Kai.
Click to expand...
Why? Gohan's profile doesn't currently have a justification for his base form.

EDIT: never mind. Eseseso posted why.
 
Damage3245 said:
Why? Gohan's profile doesn't currently have a justification for his base form.

EDIT: never mind. Eseseso posted why.
Click to expand...
I just took it from Null's other thread.

But yeah, it's obvious that all of pre-Kai training Gohan's forms are below their Cell Saga selves.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
SSJ2 Buu Saga Gohan < SSJ2 Teen Gohan by a significant margin
Click to expand...
The difference is never presented as significant, but Goku and Vegeta remark that Gohan was "better" in his youth, with Gohan confirming that he lacked the anger to draw out its full power. But that does not affect the scaling chain.
Eseseso said:
I just took it from Null's other thread.
Click to expand...
I never got around to applying it.
 
Piccolo ~ Cell Juniors >~ V. Trunks Cell ~ Super Trunks
Click to expand...

I will admit that I do find this to be a bit sketchy.

That Cell that fought Super Trunks is being directly compared to Super Trunks for "hurting him" but it's clear that Trunks is allowing Cell to hit him and lead him away from the unconscious Vegeta. Cell also admits that Super Trunks power is greater than his by a wide margin (with Piccolo further backing up that statement).

After being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and growing stronger, Piccolo himself admits that he can't do much against Cell. The only Cell he'd be able to reference being the version that fought Super Trunks.

When the canditate for Goku's successor comes up in the battle against Cell, Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks but not Piccolo, suggesting Piccolo isn't comparable to them (and by extension, the Cell Jrs.).

In the original manga it is mentioned that only Trunks and Vegeta are able to hold their own against the Cell Jrs. No mention to Piccolo. Even if Piccolo was able to stay up on his feet against them, that doesn't prove he can hurt them and the Cell Jrs. could stomp the likes of Yamcha, Tien and Krillin without those three being anywhere near as powerful as the Cell Jrs. and still leave the three of them aive.


So, to be clear, I think that that version of Cell that fought Trunks shouldn't be directly scaled to him. And Piccolo has two or three points that suggest against scaling him directly to the Cells Jrs. / the version of Cell that Trunks fought.

@DarkDragonMedeus Do you think these are fair points?
 
Damage3245 said:
I will admit that I do find this to be a bit sketchy.

That Cell that fought Super Trunks is being directly compared to Super Trunks for "hurting him" but it's clear that Trunks is allowing Cell to hit him and lead him away from the unconscious Vegeta. Cell also admits that Super Trunks power is greater than his by a wide margin (with Piccolo further backing up that statement).

After being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and growing stronger, Piccolo himself admits that he can't do much against Cell. The only Cell he'd be able to reference being the version that fought Super Trunks.

When the canditate for Goku's successor comes up in the battle against Cell, Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks but not Piccolo, suggesting Piccolo isn't comparable to them (and by extension, the Cell Jrs.).

In the original manga it is mentioned that only Trunks and Vegeta are able to hold their own against the Cell Jrs. No mention to Piccolo. Even if Piccolo was able to stay up on his feet against them, that doesn't prove he can hurt them and the Cell Jrs. could stomp the likes of Yamcha, Tien and Krillin without those three being anywhere near as powerful as the Cell Jrs. and still leave the three of them aive.


So, to be clear, I think that that version of Cell that fought Trunks shouldn't be directly scaled to him. And Piccolo has two or three points that suggest against scaling him directly to the Cells Jrs. / the version of Cell that Trunks fought.

@DarkDragonMedeus Do you think these are fair points?
Click to expand...
Some mostly, but Piccolo has at least been compared to the SSJ Vegeta who fought Semi-Perfect Cell at least. He isn't quite the level of Trunks or Vegeta and certainly not Goku's level, but he's not overwhelmingly below them as Trunks seemed impressed by his growth in the RoSaT.
 
Damage3245 said:
I will admit that I do find this to be a bit sketchy.

That Cell that fought Super Trunks is being directly compared to Super Trunks for "hurting him" but it's clear that Trunks is allowing Cell to hit him and lead him away from the unconscious Vegeta. Cell also admits that Super Trunks power is greater than his by a wide margin (with Piccolo further backing up that statement).

After being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and growing stronger, Piccolo himself admits that he can't do much against Cell. The only Cell he'd be able to reference being the version that fought Super Trunks.

When the canditate for Goku's successor comes up in the battle against Cell, Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks but not Piccolo, suggesting Piccolo isn't comparable to them (and by extension, the Cell Jrs.).

In the original manga it is mentioned that only Trunks and Vegeta are able to hold their own against the Cell Jrs. No mention to Piccolo. Even if Piccolo was able to stay up on his feet against them, that doesn't prove he can hurt them and the Cell Jrs. could stomp the likes of Yamcha, Tien and Krillin without those three being anywhere near as powerful as the Cell Jrs. and still leave the three of them aive.


So, to be clear, I think that that version of Cell that fought Trunks shouldn't be directly scaled to him. And Piccolo has two or three points that suggest against scaling him directly to the Cells Jrs. / the version of Cell that Trunks fought.

@DarkDragonMedeus Do you think these are fair points?
Click to expand...
I mean right now we scale him to his durability which states that he was the only one besides Vegeta and Trunks who could take hits from the Cell Jrs.
 
Damage3245 said:
In the original manga it is mentioned that only Trunks and Vegeta are able to hold their own against the Cell Jrs. No mention to Piccolo.
Click to expand...
Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.
Click to expand...
Damage3245 said:
Even if Piccolo was able to stay up on his feet against them, that doesn't prove he can hurt them and the Cell Jrs. could stomp the likes of Yamcha, Tien and Krillin without those three being anywhere near as powerful as the Cell Jrs. and still leave the three of them aive.
Click to expand...
Piccolo is shown defending against a Cell Junior in the panel where Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks, and is shown in a similar condition to the two by the time Gohan transformed.
Damage3245 said:
After being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and growing stronger, Piccolo himself admits that he can't do much against Cell. The only Cell he'd be able to reference being the version that fought Super Trunks.
Click to expand...
This was after Korin revealed he had a "sense" of Cell's true power and confirmed to Goku that Cell was stronger, even after his training. Goku was likely comparing Piccolo to the estimation that Korin provided.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
This was after Korin revealed he had a "sense" of Cell's true power and confirmed to Goku that Cell was stronger, even after his training. Goku was likely comparing Piccolo to the estimation that Korin provided.
Click to expand...
The statement came from Piccolo before Goku.

And I still think that there's not enough to say that Piccolo >~ Super Trunks which is what the current scaling chain suggests. I still think my point about Cell compared to Super Trunks is a valid issue.
 
Damage3245 said:
That Cell that fought Super Trunks is being directly compared to Super Trunks for "hurting him" but it's clear that Trunks is allowing Cell to hit him and lead him away from the unconscious Vegeta. Cell also admits that Super Trunks power is greater than his by a wide margin (with Piccolo further backing up that statement).
Click to expand...
The Trunks that the El Manga Legendario excerpt was referring to was the Trunks before Vegeta was removed from the battlefield, before he powered up, and before his Ki exceeded Cell's. Not only that, but Goku and Daizenshuu 7 explain that inflating the muscles is what provides Third Grade with its strength, meaning that the Trunks Cell managed to visibly damage, knock away, and exchange blows with as he stalled for Vegeta scales to the 9789.45046 Quettatons value.
 
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