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I have some mixed thoughts atm but may comment later.
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Cell Games Saga 50% SSJ Goku > Supreme Kai
Sorry about that, that is a mistake. The chain was copied off of the main one, but Goku is supposed to scale directly from Super Trunks, not from Piccolo or the Supreme Kai.Can you give me a reminder for why this is the case?
That gap seems small enough for an upscaleHow close does a value need to be to upscale? Because SSJ Gohan's 20.479099494 Foe is 1.11186529x from baseline 4-B.
He's already leagues above the first value thoIf SSJ Gohans value is from a multiplier then I don't think we should be upscaling him.
Goku does not.But I might need a refreshed memory the steps for how Cell saga Goku or in turn base Teen Gohan compares to Piccolo or Shin.
His chain is separate from the main one, because I have no idea where to put him.I know I heard the latter is stronger in base, but Goku is being used as even half his strength is above everyone else save Gohan's?
Base Buu Saga Gohan, who is =< his Cell Saga self, is above Shin, as are Base Goku and Vegeta like Nullflower said.But I might need a refreshed memory the steps for how Cell saga Goku or in turn base Teen Gohan compares to Piccolo or Shin. I know I heard the latter is stronger in base, but Goku is being used as even half his strength is above everyone else save Gohan's?
Why? Gohan's profile doesn't currently have a justification for his base form.Goku does not.
Gohan, whose strength stagnated between the Cell Games and the Majin Buu Conflict, Buu Saga Goku, and Buu Saga Vegeta all upscale from the Supreme Kai.
I just took it from Null's other thread.Why? Gohan's profile doesn't currently have a justification for his base form.
EDIT: never mind. Eseseso posted why.
That's about right.I recall past discussion that Base Gohan Buu Saga = Cell Games Base Gohan, SSJ1 Gohan Buu Saga = SSJ1 Cell Games Base Gohan, but SSJ2 Buu Saga Gohan < SSJ2 Teen Gohan by a significant margin.
The difference is never presented as significant, but Goku and Vegeta remark that Gohan was "better" in his youth, with Gohan confirming that he lacked the anger to draw out its full power. But that does not affect the scaling chain.SSJ2 Buu Saga Gohan < SSJ2 Teen Gohan by a significant margin
I never got around to applying it.I just took it from Null's other thread.
I apologize for copying your stuff.I never got around to applying it.
I'll get around to it later.I apologize for copying your stuff.
No worries, I just wanted to apologize for copying your other thread without asking you first.
Piccolo ~ Cell Juniors >~ V. Trunks Cell ~ Super Trunks
Some mostly, but Piccolo has at least been compared to the SSJ Vegeta who fought Semi-Perfect Cell at least. He isn't quite the level of Trunks or Vegeta and certainly not Goku's level, but he's not overwhelmingly below them as Trunks seemed impressed by his growth in the RoSaT.I will admit that I do find this to be a bit sketchy.
That Cell that fought Super Trunks is being directly compared to Super Trunks for "hurting him" but it's clear that Trunks is allowing Cell to hit him and lead him away from the unconscious Vegeta. Cell also admits that Super Trunks power is greater than his by a wide margin (with Piccolo further backing up that statement).
After being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and growing stronger, Piccolo himself admits that he can't do much against Cell. The only Cell he'd be able to reference being the version that fought Super Trunks.
When the canditate for Goku's successor comes up in the battle against Cell, Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks but not Piccolo, suggesting Piccolo isn't comparable to them (and by extension, the Cell Jrs.).
In the original manga it is mentioned that only Trunks and Vegeta are able to hold their own against the Cell Jrs. No mention to Piccolo. Even if Piccolo was able to stay up on his feet against them, that doesn't prove he can hurt them and the Cell Jrs. could stomp the likes of Yamcha, Tien and Krillin without those three being anywhere near as powerful as the Cell Jrs. and still leave the three of them aive.
So, to be clear, I think that that version of Cell that fought Trunks shouldn't be directly scaled to him. And Piccolo has two or three points that suggest against scaling him directly to the Cells Jrs. / the version of Cell that Trunks fought.
@DarkDragonMedeus Do you think these are fair points?
I mean right now we scale him to his durability which states that he was the only one besides Vegeta and Trunks who could take hits from the Cell Jrs.I will admit that I do find this to be a bit sketchy.
That Cell that fought Super Trunks is being directly compared to Super Trunks for "hurting him" but it's clear that Trunks is allowing Cell to hit him and lead him away from the unconscious Vegeta. Cell also admits that Super Trunks power is greater than his by a wide margin (with Piccolo further backing up that statement).
After being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and growing stronger, Piccolo himself admits that he can't do much against Cell. The only Cell he'd be able to reference being the version that fought Super Trunks.
When the canditate for Goku's successor comes up in the battle against Cell, Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks but not Piccolo, suggesting Piccolo isn't comparable to them (and by extension, the Cell Jrs.).
In the original manga it is mentioned that only Trunks and Vegeta are able to hold their own against the Cell Jrs. No mention to Piccolo. Even if Piccolo was able to stay up on his feet against them, that doesn't prove he can hurt them and the Cell Jrs. could stomp the likes of Yamcha, Tien and Krillin without those three being anywhere near as powerful as the Cell Jrs. and still leave the three of them aive.
So, to be clear, I think that that version of Cell that fought Trunks shouldn't be directly scaled to him. And Piccolo has two or three points that suggest against scaling him directly to the Cells Jrs. / the version of Cell that Trunks fought.
@DarkDragonMedeus Do you think these are fair points?
I know, I referenced that.I mean right now we scale him to his durability which states that he was the only one besides Vegeta and Trunks who could take hits from the Cell Jrs.
Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.
Piccolo is shown defending against a Cell Junior in the panel where Cell mentions Vegeta and Trunks, and is shown in a similar condition to the two by the time Gohan transformed.Even if Piccolo was able to stay up on his feet against them, that doesn't prove he can hurt them and the Cell Jrs. could stomp the likes of Yamcha, Tien and Krillin without those three being anywhere near as powerful as the Cell Jrs. and still leave the three of them aive.
This was after Korin revealed he had a "sense" of Cell's true power and confirmed to Goku that Cell was stronger, even after his training. Goku was likely comparing Piccolo to the estimation that Korin provided.After being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and growing stronger, Piccolo himself admits that he can't do much against Cell. The only Cell he'd be able to reference being the version that fought Super Trunks.
The statement came from Piccolo before Goku.This was after Korin revealed he had a "sense" of Cell's true power and confirmed to Goku that Cell was stronger, even after his training. Goku was likely comparing Piccolo to the estimation that Korin provided.
It was rejected somewhere in this thread for being stupid.Has the "Supreme Kai = SSJ Goku because Dabura = Cell" statement been rejected?
20 PagesIt was rejected somewhere in this thread for being stupid.
So is incredulity the only reason it got rejected? Seems to be a common trend amongst rejected dragon ball stuff.It was rejected somewhere in this thread for being stupid.
SSJ Goku was implied to have been capable of easily killing Shin when he got in the way of Goku vs Vegeta IIRC.So is incredulity the only reason it got rejected? Seems to be a common trend amongst rejected dragon ball stuff.
Yeah, but that’s Buu Arc SSJ Goku. The comparison is Shin and Cell Arc SSJ Goku.SSJ Goku was implied to have been capable of easily killing Shin when he got in the way of Goku vs Vegeta IIRC.
Oh, ok, I misunderstood.Yeah, but that’s Buu Arc SSJ Goku. The comparison is Shin and Cell Arc SSJ Goku.
The Trunks that the El Manga Legendario excerpt was referring to was the Trunks before Vegeta was removed from the battlefield, before he powered up, and before his Ki exceeded Cell's. Not only that, but Goku and Daizenshuu 7 explain that inflating the muscles is what provides Third Grade with its strength, meaning that the Trunks Cell managed to visibly damage, knock away, and exchange blows with as he stalled for Vegeta scales to the 9789.45046 Quettatons value.That Cell that fought Super Trunks is being directly compared to Super Trunks for "hurting him" but it's clear that Trunks is allowing Cell to hit him and lead him away from the unconscious Vegeta. Cell also admits that Super Trunks power is greater than his by a wide margin (with Piccolo further backing up that statement).
I wouldn't really call that visible damage.eaning that the Trunks Cell managed to visibly damage, knock away, and exchange blows with as he stalled for Vegeta scales to the 9789.45046 Quettatons value.
His empty, shaky pupils are proof that Trunks took real damage from that punch.I wouldn't really call that visible damage.
i mean, if he was trying to lead cell away, couldn't he just be pretending to lead cell away?His empty, shaky pupils are proof that Trunks took real damage from that punch.