Cell Games/Buu Saga Scaling Chain Upgrade

[Nullflowerblush]

i mean, if he was trying to lead cell away, couldn't he just be pretending to lead cell away?

Burden of proof.
Trunks was enduring Cell's attacks to keep Cell occupied as Krillin rescued Vegeta, deliberately allowing himself to be moved around the battlefield to create distance, but nothing implies that Trunks was faking taking damage.
Besides, I'm not sure how he'd fake that expression. I'm also not really sure why he'd think that faking to be injured would lure Cell away from Vegeta.

 

[omegabronic]

Burden of proof.

i mean, the entire context of that scene is trunks wanting cell to get away from vegeta, so that with cell admiting that trunks is stronger than him by a big margin would make that not a very far fetched thing to assume

Trunks was enduring Cell's attacks to keep Cell occupied as Krillin rescued Vegeta, deliberately allowing himself to be moved around the battlefield to create distance, but nothing implies that Trunks was faking taking damage.

i think you just said exactly what i said but with a different wording

Besides, I'm not sure how he'd fake that expression. I'm also not really sure why he'd think that faking to be injured would lure Cell away from Vegeta.

well, people can fake a variety of expressions, besides, it could be that he is lowering his power enough for cell to damage him, like, cell being relative to trunks would contradict what he said after about trunks being >>> himself, trunks was letting himself get attack and trow back so that cell would follow him, cell just got into his perfect form and deliberately took vegeta's final flash just to test himself, so with trunks having a new form engadging with him would be also a perfect test for his newly acquired power, so faking being on his level would intrigue cell and attract him

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Trunks faking feeling pain seems way too assumptive to be considered (and so does him lowering his power to intentionally feel pain). Like honestly the justification for it is way more assumptive than just saying "He was luring cell away and got hit real hard by cell while doing so" which is least assumptive explanation you can get from the scene.

 

[omegabronic]

Trunks faking feeling pain seems way too assumptive to be considered (and so does him lowering his power to intentionally feel pain). Like honestly the justification for it is way more assumptive than just saying "He was luring cell away and got hit real hard by cell while doing so" which is least assumptive explanation you can get from the scene.

I mean, how would that make sense with cell saying that trunks is marginally stronger than him?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I mean, how would that make sense with cell saying that trunks is marginally stronger than him?

It's either inconsistent or Cell scales to a degree. Like here Cell pretty much just decked him. Trunks would literally have no reason to lower his power if Cell already knew he was marginally stronger.

 

[omegabronic]

It's either inconsistent or Cell scales to a degree. Like here Cell pretty much just decked him. Trunks would literally have no reason to lower his power if Cell already knew he was marginally stronger.

Tbh, cell could just downscale from trunks

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I mean, how would that make sense with cell saying that trunks is marginally stronger than him?

Again,

The Trunks that the El Manga Legendario excerpt was referring to was the Trunks before Vegeta was removed from the battlefield, before he powered up, and before his Ki exceeded Cell's. Not only that, but Goku and Daizenshuu 7 explain that inflating the muscles is what provides Third Grade with its strength

Super Trunks after powering up > Cell, but Super Trunks before powering up is 10x SSJ Trunks nevertheless.

 

[omegabronic]

Again,

Super Trunks after powering up > Cell, but Super Trunks before powering up is 10x SSJ Trunks nevertheless.

Why? The full multiplier is 10x, why would he holding back still be 10x?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The Trunks that the El Manga Legendario excerpt was referring to was the Trunks before Vegeta was removed from the battlefield

"Trunks acquired ten times the strength", not "Super Saiyan Third Grade is ten times as strong as Second Grade", which implies that Trunks, at that point, had grown ten-times as powerful as before.

 

[ByAsura]

So is incredulity the only reason it got rejected? Seems to be a common trend amongst rejected dragon ball stuff.

I wasn't being literal. It was rejected for the logic behind it not making sense, the statement potentially being speculation, and new scaling that placed Shin below base Saiyans.

There's nothing wrong with claiming that Goku and Shin are comparable in strength, but claiming (at least going by my translations, other people's translations, and what the DB wikia says) that Shin is as strong as Goku because Dabura is as strong as Cell and Shin took preparations against Dabura is like claiming that Nameka Saga Vegeta is as strong as Namek Saga Goku because they were both increasing their strength to fight Frieza.

 

[Nierre]

Tbh, cell could just downscale from trunks

I'm okay with downscaling ^ if possible

 

[Eseseso]

I mean Trunks scales to above 9789 quettatons, so Perfect Cell could still scale to the value itself

 

[Damage3245]

I'm okay with downscaling ^ if possible

Agreed.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

bump

 

[omegabronic]

bump

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Sucks to not be a cosmology thread.

 

[omegabronic]

Sucks to not be a cosmology thread.

that doesn't help much

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-universal-space-time-number-downgrade.154540

 

[ChronoULT]

Shouldn't Supreme Kai scale to Cell Games MSSJ Goku? El Manga Legendario says this

"Despite hiding his strength when they first met, Goku suspected that he was not someone ordinary. Although he has some unusual abilities, he doesn't seem like he outmatches Super Saiyans in combat strength. Judging by the precautions he takes with Dabura, similar in level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game. Later on, his power increases by fusing with Kibito, but even then he couldn't fight Buu with guarantees."

Here

 

[Damage3245]

Shouldn't Supreme Kai scale to Cell Games MSSJ Goku? El Manga Legendario says this

"Despite hiding his strength when they first met, Goku suspected that he was not someone ordinary. Although he has some unusual abilities, he doesn't seem like he outmatches Super Saiyans in combat strength. Judging by the precautions he takes with Dabura, similar in level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game. Later on, his power increases by fusing with Kibito, but even then he couldn't fight Buu with guarantees."

Here

That seems pretty speculative / unconfirmed.

 

[ChronoULT]

That seems pretty speculative / unconfirmed.

Eh, fair

 

[ChronoULT]

Does Goten and Trunks also get the 50x post rosat amp? Piccolo was showing as stronger when they defused inside Buu, and daizenshuu says that Goten's power was not that far behind Gohan in the start of the saga. After the rosat amp he would be comparable to ssj Gohan in the Cell games.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Possibly? Depends on how Fusion logic is factored into the equation.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

No, not possibly.

Piccolo is weaker than Supreme Kai, and Supreme Kai is weaker than Gohan. Piccolo cannot be stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. The only way this scaling could work would be if SSJ Goten and Trunks were weaker than Gohan.

 

[ChronoULT]

No, not possibly.

Piccolo is weaker than Supreme Kai, and Supreme Kai is weaker than Gohan. Piccolo cannot be stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan. The only way this scaling could work would be if SSJ Goten and Trunks were weaker than Gohan.

It's possible because Gohan trained before the tournament, so his base form at the tournament is stronger than the base form from the start of the saga, which is equal to the base from the Cell Games. So Gohan can still be stronger than Piccolo

Tenkaichi Budokai Gohan > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Cell Games Gohan

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It's possible because Gohan trained before the tournament, so his base form at the tournament is stronger than the base form from the start of the saga, which is equal to the base from the Cell Games. So Gohan can still be stronger than Piccolo

Tenkaichi Budokai Gohan > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Cell Games Gohan

There's still that guidebook that claims Shin is as strong as Cell Games Goku though.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

There's still that guidebook that claims Shin is as strong as Cell Games Goku though.

That has been twice before in this thread.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

It's possible because Gohan trained before the tournament, so his base form at the tournament is stronger than the base form from the start of the saga, which is equal to the base from the Cell Games. So Gohan can still be stronger than Piccolo

Tenkaichi Budokai Gohan > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Cell Games Gohan

Tournament Gohan > Supreme Kai > Piccolo > Cell Games SSJ Gohan?

 

[Eseseso]

I mean, Cell Games Goku << Cell Games Gohan, so Cell Games SSJ Goku = Shin < Base Gohan?

 

[Damage3245]

I mean, Cell Games Goku << Cell Games Gohan, so Cell Games SSJ Goku = Shin < Base Gohan?

Which would be completely contradicted by Gohan being weaker than he was during the Cell Games.

 

[Eseseso]

Which would be completely contradicted by Gohan being weaker than he was during the Cell Games.

Not really, SSJ Cell Games Goku < Shin < Base Buu Saga Gohan =< Base Cell Games Gohan < SSJ Cell Games Gohan

And now I realize this is a dumb idea.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Which would be completely contradicted by Gohan being weaker than he was during the Cell Games.

Vegeta commented that Gohan had grown "out of shape" by the time of the Majin Buu Conflict, but the only time Gohan is described as "weaker" is when he used Super Saiyan 2, which is attributed to his lack of mastery over the form, requiring his anger to unleash its full strength.

 

[ChronoULT]

There's still that guidebook that claims Shin is as strong as Cell Games Goku though.

It doesn't contradict the scalling since it's speculative

Tournament Gohan > Supreme Kai > Piccolo > Cell Games SSJ Gohan?

Both Gohans at ssj

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Both Gohans at ssj

But Gohan is > Supreme Kai in base.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If this is worth anything, although admitting to likely being inferior, the Supreme Kai desired to spar with Goku, having heard of his abilities (From who? Who knows? Possibly through the King Kai-themed grapevine), with Goku convinced that Shin was a genuine threat.

 

[Eseseso]

If this is worth anything, although admitting to likely being inferior, the Supreme Kai desired to spar with Goku, having heard of his abilities (From who? Who knows? Possibly through the King Kai-themed grapevine), with Goku convinced that Shin was a genuine threat.

I still think your evidence above points to Shin being inferior to Base Gohan

 

[ChronoULT]

But Gohan is > Supreme Kai in base.

Before training with the Z Sword? How exactly?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

To quote this thread:

Based on his own feats and statements...

• Even knowing the might of his Supreme Kai, Kibito viewed a fraction of the Ki that Gohan possessed to be "immeasurable"
• Dabura believed the three Saiyans, including Gohan, combined, could deliver enough energy to fully revivify Majin Buu, implying comparability
• Gohan participated in the rock-paper-scissors match to decide the one to take on Pui-Pui, and Vegeta considered him part of the "strongest beings in existence"
• Babidi was weary of the three Saiyans altogether, disregarding the Supreme Kai entirely, enough to send out Yakon immediately after Pui-Pui
• In the presence of the mighty Yakon, Gohan was able to remain level-headed and confident, whereas the Supreme Kai immediately rallied for an ambush with the group's combined forces
• Gohan was confident that if he assisted Goku, the two could have taken on Yakon without even their Super Saiyan forms, as Yakon directly countered said powers
• Even after the battle, having witnessed Pui-Pui at his strongest, Gohan still considered the trials Babidi orchestrated to be similar to a video game
• By the time Dabura appeared, the Supreme Kai was left thoroughly amazed by the power of the three Saiyans, viewing their strength as impossible for "mere mortals" despite their relaxed states

 

[ChronoULT]

To quote this thread:

Hmm, this doesn't look too conclusive because Gohan could just transform. Babidi also had already saw ssj2 Gohan's energy filling almost half of the energy to revive Buu, and he lost ki when he was transformed. But I'm fine with this being considered, if it doesn't contradict the scalling

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, the majority of those statements don't appear to exclusively apply to base Gohan.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

How?

• Kibito heals Gohan in his base; fails to restore his full strength because his Ki is "immeasurable"
• Dabura had never seen Super Saiyan before; was convinced that Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan could revive Buu
• Pui-Pui was informed by Babidi to remain cautious of the Saiyans's normal strength
• Babidi, without having witnessed Super Saiyan, remained cautious around their power
• Gohan was confident that if he assisted Goku, the two could have taken on Yakon without their Super Saiyan forms, as Yakon directly countered said powers