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Buu Saga Changes

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Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
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Note: This was a requested thread which has undergone a bit of discussion, beforehand.

As many of you know, DBZ characters from the Buu Saga were previously upgraded to 4-A due to Kid Buu's feat of destroying a galaxy over time. However, I have come to realize that this was a mistake, and one which must be addressed. Almost no other Vs forum/site on the internet has accepted this change. While things like this can often be due to downplay or simply lack of knowledge on the series, in this case it seems we were in fact in the wrong. This thread will address why, and what will happen to the stats of said characters who were previously upgraded.

Firstly, the only reason Kai was accepted as canon was due to it supposedly being a more "faithful adaptation of the manga", not to mention clips from it are used in Super. However, Kai heavily contradicts not only the manga, but Super as well, meaning it is flawed to assume it was made exactly as Toriyama intended. Kai has the character of Pikkon, who exists in neither Super nor the original manga. He is a filler only character kept in because Kai is not 100% filler-free as many people would like to believe. Kai also keeps the anime version of Hell, which contradicts both descriptions from the manga and later events shown in Super. There is also the matter of Frieza, whose experiences in Hell vastly differ between Kai and Super, and only one of them can be canon.

Then there's the matter of Toriyama supposedly verifying Kai as canon, which is simply false. Dragon Ball Super is canon due to Toriyama explicitly saying so. Kai was treated as canon for simply cutting out some filler and being "more faithful". This doesn't really mean much considering the fact that Toriyama himself had little to no involvement in the directing, organizing, or planning of the show. Most choices were those of Toei and Toei alone.

Finally, we come to the issue of scaling, which Kai completely ruins. We have been very, VERY generous in our scaling for DBZ (even upgrading half the series for a feat in a flashback decades after the manga/anime originally ended) and accepting numerous statements. That being said, calling out something that is obviously wrong is not downplay, and 4-A Buu Saga characters are obviously wrong. Even being generous, Super Perfect Cell, the primary antagonist of the previous saga, barely qualifies for the lower bounds of 4-B. In order to be the absolute minimum level of 4-A, Kid Buu would need to be more than a trillion times stronger than Cell. This, in turn, would mean SSJ3 Goku would need to be more than a trillion times stronger than Cell, which even using the most ridiculous multipliers simply doesn't add up. Since we've gone back and adjusted characters based simply on the fact that "Well, them being this weak compared to another character just doesn't make sense", it's downright absurd to ignore the obvious scaling issues brought up by accepting 4-A Kid Buu simply because it buffs the series.

So what does this mean for the characters stats? Well, everybody meaningful in the Buu Saga would be 4-B as opposed to 4-A. I do not want to see any random wanking calling for "At least 4-B" or "4-B+", as to qualify for that, they would still need to be hundreds of billions of times more powerful than Super Perfect Cell, which is obviously not the case. This would also take away any "possibly MFTL" scaling from said galactic destruction feat, as in the manga, Kid Buu was only mentioned to have destroyed many celestial bodies during his rampage, with no talk of obliterating an entire galaxy, which was initially only a visual representation from a filler scene. Essentially, this would require all of DBZ's top tiers to be moved to 4-B with at least FTL+ speeds.

I am aware this is a controversial topic, but please be civil in the comments when giving your opinion. Failure to do so and attempts to derail the thread will be met with a ban.
 
Huh...So this is what you been working on...I'll reply in a bit, currently somewhat busy.
 
This sounds agreeable to me, given the context presented. I'd wait until more people show up and offer input, though.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
CrossverseCrisis said:
Eeewww. The format here is so unbearable to my eyes.....mmmmmmmm...Xp
For some reason wiki completely ****** the source text. I just fixed it.
Well it's fixed now. Now that this has been addressed, we MAY HAVE BEEN in the wrong for upgrading the characters to as high as 4-A.

In fact by our current AP chart, the difference between 4-B and 4-A is astronimically big as hell.
 
This i completely agree with in fact it was troubling me for quite a while that buu saga characters were so high it didnt make much sense in terms of scaling.Using cell as a base line as solar system level all the buu saga characters should fit in solar sytem level.Super sayain 3 goku isnt 1 trillionx stronger than cell that is just absurb.
 
Dont get my wrong.. but downgrade Buu Saga and the reason of not MFTL from Cell Saga when Frieza is FTL+ for powerscaling is hard... and Character like Vegetto should be Solar System Level+
 
KaenDragneel123 said:
and Character like Vegetto should be Solar System Level+
Solar System level+ implies Vegito is literally hundreds of billions of times stronger than Super Perfect Cell or SSJ2 Gohan at his peak.
 
The Boo Saga still had many constant blitzes, so I think the FTL+, possibly MFTL rating should be kept. As it is, the calc SDZ did for DBZ was a lowball also by ignoring the powerup gap from Goku on Kaiosama's planet, his zenkai boost, and his 7 years of training in Otherworld.

Also Pikkon was not in Kai IIRC.
 
@Fan

Blitzing is only a very mininal thing in regards to speed difference, as I asked DarkLK a long time ago.

Those examples are boosts in power we cannot properly quantify, and thus they mean nothing.
 
All buu saga characters should be downgraded to solar system level even vegito because to be multi-solar system level requires them to be a trillion times stronger than cell and that doesnt make any sort of sense.As for their speeds i think the mftl should be kept at least for vegito and buuhan.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
All buu saga characters should be downgraded to solar system level even vegito because to be multi-solar system level requires them to be a trillion times stronger than cell and that doesnt make any sort of sense.As for their speeds i think the mftl should be kept at least for vegit and buuhan.
The "possibly MFTL" could probably be kept for Vegito and Buuhan, but only those two.
 
After some thinking, i agree that the characters should be downgraded to Solar System level too. Cause like what i've looked at the AP chart and repeating what Pegasus said: the characters power level from Buu Saga would have to require everyone to be over a trillion times stronger than Super Perfect Cell.
 
Super contradict the manga itself. Does this mean that Super isn't canon?

P.S.: We never get to see the Great Kaio's world in Super. So bringing Pikkon in this matter is a bad play.
 
Wbaez93 said:
Super contradict the manga itself. Does this mean that Super isn't canon?
Except Super, as already stated, was stated by Toriyama to be a direct continuation of the manga. Kai has no such statement, nor direct involvement from Toriyama.
 
There you have it. Super is the direct continuation, which uses fragments of DBZ Kai. That's the reason for the upgrades.

It was never because "Toriyama supposedly verified Kai as canon"

Nobody ever said that.


Super made Kai canon.

As simple as that.
 
Wbaez93 said:
There you have it. Super is the direct continuation, which uses fragments of DBZ Kai. That's the reason for the upgrades.
It was never because "Toriyama supposedly verified Kai as canon"

Nobody ever said that.
Except the entire post above explains why that's a false assumption.

Also, yes, people are using this same logic to say Toriyama verified Kai as canon.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
KaenDragneel123 said:
and Character like Vegetto should be Solar System Level+
Solar System level+ implies Vegito is literally hundreds of billions of times stronger than Super Perfect Cell or SSJ2 Gohan at his peak.
And who said they arent though
 
@Wbaez93

You're going to have to provide actual evidence instead of just repeatedly stating a false claim.

@Kaen

Common sense?
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Wbaez93
You're going to have to provide actual evidence instead of just repeatedly stating a false claim.

@Kaen

Common sense?
Oh, now I'm the one who has to bring proofs when you're the one who can't change the fact that Super made Kai canon?

Okay, let's see.

Mr. Satan's fighters. (After Beerus and Goku's fight)

Trunks killing Frieza. (Episode 29 or 30 IRC)

Buu destroying Earth (Episode 1)

I can't remember more, but these are the principal points that destroy your argument.

Super made Kai canon.

You have to prove that it didn't.

In the remote case that you can do it, that would mean that Super isn't canon either.
 
Wbaez93 said:
Oh, now I'm the one who has to bring proofs when you're the one who can't change the fact that Super made Kai canon?

Okay, let's see.

Mr. Satan's fighters. (After Beerus and Goku's fight)

Trunks killing Frieza. (Episode 29 or 30 IRC)

Buu destroying Earth (Episode 1)

I can't remember more, but these are the principal points that destroy your argument.

Super made Kai canon.

You have to prove that it didn't.

In the remote case that you can do it, that would mean that Super isn't canon either.
Did you just NOT read the initial post about the inconsistencies brought up between the series? Super having elements added from things not initially canon doesn't make everything suddenly canon. Especially with the entirety of Hell being vastly different.
 
Shock97 said:
I thought we decided not too long ago that Kai was canon because of Super itself?
Yes, which is an incorrect assumption. Super having elements which were originally non-canon does not verify everything as being canon, especially when major differences exist between the two.
 
Ok kai was never canon before super all it had for it was that it was a more faithful adaptation of the manga there was no direct statement from toriyama that confirmed it was canon. Super on the other hand does.Scenes from kai have been featured in super and thus kai is canon because of super.But it is tertiary canon at best but regardless kid buu destroying a galaxy in a few years was never featured in the manga and the feat itself is a massive outlier that contradicts with established feats.There is no way kid buu is a trillionx stronger than cell.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Wbaez93 said:
Oh, now I'm the one who has to bring proofs when you're the one who can't change the fact that Super made Kai canon?

Okay, let's see.

Mr. Satan's fighters. (After Beerus and Goku's fight)

Trunks killing Frieza. (Episode 29 or 30 IRC)

Buu destroying Earth (Episode 1)

I can't remember more, but these are the principal points that destroy your argument.

Super made Kai canon.

You have to prove that it didn't.

In the remote case that you can do it, that would mean that Super isn't canon either.
Did you just NOT read the initial post about the inconsistencies brought up between the series? Super having elements added from things not initially canon doesn't make everything suddenly canon. Especially with the entirety of Hell being vastly different.
I did, and I told you that Super contradicts the manga itself, but you totally ignored that.

Sorry, but as I said, Super made Kai canon.


If one isn't canon, the other isn't either. Both have inconsistencies.


You can't just say: "Okay, but this one has fewer inconsistencies, so let's made this canon."
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
Shock97 said:
I thought we decided not too long ago that Kai was canon because of Super itself?
Yes, which is an incorrect assumption. Super having elements which were originally non-canon does not verify everything as being canon, especially when major differences exist between the two.
But even still the fact that they were included in the first place for an actual successor to DBZ should mean they aren't just considered filler anymore or non-canon. I say the elements that were purposely included could be argued as canon. I'm indifferent right now on the downgrade, but the cannon argument is strange and to be clear you do make valid points in certain spots.
 
Powerscaling downwards is not really accepted anywhere to begin.

Cell being upgraded is legit because there's new found evidence that shed light on the matter but this and the non canon profiles from games just seem like up scaling to be frank no offense .

Either way though you make valid points here as well
 
Wbaez93 said:
I did, and I told you that Super contradicts the manga itself, but you totally ignored that.

Sorry, but as I said, Super made Kai canon.


If one isn't canon, the other isn't either. Both have inconsistencies.


You can't just say: "Okay, but this one has fewer inconsistencies, so let's made this canon."
a) That's not how it works. Super is canon because Toriyama specifically said so. There is no confirmation for Kai, which he was not directly involved in. Super having things different does not make it non-canon because WoG confirms it is.

b)You have to prove how Super makes Kai canon as opposed to just saying that it is.
 
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