Cell Games/Buu Saga Scaling Chain Upgrade

[Nullflowerblush]

I hate writing threads.

Hey, looky over 'ere!​

Gohan scales above the Supreme Kai and Piccolo.
According to the Dragon Ball AP Blog, Piccolo and the Supreme Kai upscale from the Cell Juniors, standing at >978.945045777 Quettatons.

However, as per the Daizenshuu 7, the Cell Juniors possess the same strength and speed as their creator, Cell—which is suggested in the original story—who, at the time, following in the footsteps of the "Revising Cell Saga Scaling" thread, harmed pre-Inexperienced Power-Up Grade 3 Trunks, meaning Cell and the Cell Juniors stand at ~9789.45046 Quettatons.

With this,

Super Vegito > (50x) 5.265 GigaFoe > Vegito > Ultimate Gohan > Post-RoSaT SSJ3 Gotenks > (20x) 105.3 MegaFoe > Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks

Buuhan & Buutenks > (2x) 210.6 MegaFoe > Ultimate Gohan > Post-RoSaT SSJ3 Gotenks > (20x) 105.3 MegaFoe > Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks > (50x) 5.265 MegaFoe > Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks > (50x) 105.3 KiloFoe > SSJ3 Goku > Majin Buu > Pre-RoSaT Gotenks > SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan > (2x) 2.106 KiloFoe > 50% SSJ2 Gohan > Revived Cell > 1.053 KiloFoe > Powerhouse Cell > (10x) 409.58199 Foe > Perfect Cell > SSJ Gohan > (50x) 20.479099494 Foe > Gohan > Supreme Kai > Piccolo ~ Cell Juniors >~ V. Trunks Cell ~ Super Trunks > 9789.45046 Quettatons

Cell Game Saga SSJ Goku > (2x) 19578.9009 Quettatons > Cell Games Saga 50% SSJ Goku > Super Trunks > 9789.45046 Quettatons

Explain yourself.​

• Because Super Saiyan 2 allowed Gohan to turn around a stomp and dominate Powerhouse Cell and the stronger Revived Cell with less than half of his strength remaining, the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan needs to be at least twice as large as the difference between Super Saiyan and Third Grade Super Saiyan, which is 10x, meaning that Super Saiyan 2 is, minimum, 20x Super Saiyan.
• Pre-RoSaT Gotenks is currently accepted as stronger than Majin Vegeta based on Krillin and Piccolo implying that Gotenks could exchange blows with Majin Buu, despite knowing that Vegeta died trying, with the Daizenshuu 7 clarifying that Gotenks "seized the initiative battle" against Majin Buu multiple times, only to fail in the end, implying that his initial confrontation with Innocent Buu resulted in an even match that quickly escalated into a defeat due to unknown factors. Post-RoSaT Gotenks is accepted as stronger than his Pre-RoSaT SSJ self based on Piccolo expressing the belief that Gotenks could defeat Super Buu, knowing that Super Buu eclipsed his Pre-RoSaT SSJ.
• Buutenks and Buuhan are considered 2x Super Buu/Gotenks, because the three upscale from the same value, meaning that adding their power onto his increases his by over two-times, at the very least.

Well then, what are the results?​

• Cell Juniors, Piccolo, Cell Games SSJ Vegeta & Trunks, Supreme Kai, Buu Saga Goku, Gohan, and Buu Saga Vegeta: >9789.45046 Quettatons
• Cell Games SSJ Goku: >19578.9009 Quettatons
• SSJ Gohan, Buu Saga SSJ Goku & Vegeta, Dabura, and Perfect Cell: >20.479099494 Foe [High 4-C+]
• Powerhouse Cell: >204.790995 Foe [8.99389526x 4-B]
• Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks: >105.3 KiloFoe [4624.50593x]
• Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks: >5.265 MegaFoe [231225.296x]
• SSJ3 Gotenks, Super Buu, Ultimate Gohan, and Vegito: >105.3 MegaFoe [4624505.93x]
• Buutenks & Buuhan: >210.6 MegaFoe [9249011.86x]
• SSJ Vegito: >5.265 GigaFoe [231225296x]

Let's discuss!

 

[Ped2018]

Based and nullflowerpilled

 

[Eseseso]

1. Oh so you'll do this but not the High 4-C Base Gohan CRT?

2. THANK YOU for clarifying that SSJ2 is a 20x multiplier, not 10x.

3. Everything here seems good. Bit iffy on the SSJ2-Ultimate Form stacking for Gohan (since the anime Super scene seems to just imply that Ultimate > SSJ not that Gohan can stack them), but the Kakarot and Daizenshuu statements seem fine enough.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Not sure with SSJ stacking on top of Ultimate, think it would have just been adding his Super Saiyan form's power + His Ultimate Power, probably why Elder Kai called it "just show-biz"
A x50/x1000 multiplier sure would have been handy against Buutenks or Cell Max

 

[BB7778]

I hate writing threads.

Hey, looky over 'ere!​

Gohan scales above the Supreme Kai and Piccolo.
According to the Dragon Ball AP Blog, Piccolo and the Supreme Kai upscale from the Cell Juniors, standing at >978.945045777 Quettatons.

However, as per the Daizenshuu 7, the Cell Juniors possess the same strength and speed as their creator, Cell—which is suggested in the original story—who, at the time, following in the footsteps of the "Revising Cell Saga Scaling" thread, harmed pre-Inexperienced Power-Up Grade 3 Trunks, meaning Cell and the Cell Juniors stand at ~9789.45046 Quettatons.

With this,

Explain yourself.​

• Every 50x is an application of the accepted Super Saiyan multiplier.
• Every 500x is an application of the accepted Third Grade Super Saiyan multiplier.
• Every 20x—in the case of Gotenks—and 1,000x is an application of an estimation of the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier. Because Super Saiyan 2 allowed Gohan to turn around a stomp and dominate Powerhouse Cell and the stronger Revived Cell with less than half of his strength remaining, the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan needs to be at least twice as large as the difference between Super Saiyan and Third Grade Super Saiyan, which is 10x, meaning that Super Saiyan 2 is, bare minimum, 1,000x.
• Pre-RoSaT Gotenks is currently accepted as stronger than Majin Vegeta based on Krillin and Piccolo implying that Gotenks could exchange blows with Majin Buu, despite knowing that Vegeta died trying, with the Daizenshuu 7 clarifying that Gotenks "seized the initiative battle" against Majin Buu multiple times, only to fail in the end, implying that his initial confrontation with Innocent Buu resulted in an even match that quickly escalated into a defeat due to unknown factors. Post-RoSaT Gotenks is accepted as stronger than his Pre-RoSaT SSJ self based on Piccolo expressing the belief that Gotenks could defeat Super Buu, knowing that Super Buu eclipsed his Pre-RoSaT SSJ.
• Fusions are currently accepted as automatically being more powerful than the strongest forms of their halves, meaning that a Hypothetical Gokhan is automatically more powerful than a Hypothetical SSJ2 Ultimate Gohan. As for Ultimate Gohan being able to transform, not only has the Super anime confirmed that Ultimate Gohan can enter Super Saiyan, instead refusing to, but the Daizenshuu 2 has clarified that Ultimate Gohan retains the ability, but deems its power unneeded, as per the Elder Kai's dialogue—which Kakarot directly confirms.
• Vegito is superior to a Hypothetical Gokhan based on an excerpt from the El Manga Legendario, confirming that, because of their rivalry, Goku and Vegeta produced a stronger Fusion than Goku and Gohan would have, which is a concept briefly alluded to by the Elder Kai in the original series (link to Herm's translation).

Well then, what are the results?​

• Cell Juniors, Piccolo, and Post-2nd RoSaT SSJ Vegeta and Trunks are buffed from >978.945045777 Quettatons to ~9789.45046 Quettatons
• Supreme Kai, Cell Games Saga/Buu Saga Gohan, Buu Saga Goku, and Vegeta are buffed from >978.945045777 Quettatons to >9789.45046 Quettatons
• Dabura and Perfect Cell are buffed from >978.945045777 Quettatons to >22.8 Foe [1.00131752x 4-B]
• Powerhouse Cell is 1.14 KiloFoe [50.0658762x]
• SSJ2 Gohan, SSJ2/SSJ3 Goku, SSJ2 Vegeta, Majin Buu, and Pre-RoSaT Gotenks are buffed from >2.106 KiloFoe [92.4901186x] to >2.28 KiloFoe [100.131752x]
• Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks is >114 KiloFoe [5006.58762x]
• Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks is >5.7 MegaFoe [250329.381x]
• SSJ3 Gotenks, Super Buu, and Ultimate Gohan are >114 MegaFoe [5006587.62x]
• Hypothetical SSJ2 Ultimate Gohan is >114 GigaFoe [250329381x]
• Hypothetical Gokhan is >114 GigaFoe [250329381x]
• Vegito is >114 GigaFoe [5006587620x]
• Super Vegito is >5.7 TeraFoe [250329381000x]

Let's discuss!

I don't think piccolo should climb to the junior cell, it doesn't make sense for him to go from being an inferior cell before absorbing the androids to being a piccolo>>>>semi perfect cell

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I don't think piccolo should climb to the junior cell, it doesn't make sense for him to go from being an inferior cell before absorbing the androids to being a piccolo>>>>semi perfect cell

Piccolo trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber before going to the Cell Games, so it ain't that far-fetched

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Following

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Oh so you'll do this but not the High 4-C Base Gohan CRT?

Mind if I take a rain check on that?

since the anime Super scene seems to just imply that Ultimate > SSJ not that Gohan can stack them

Goku, of all people, having stood right next to Gohan as he unleashed his power for the first time, should know that Ultimate > SSJ by this point.

A x50/x1000 multiplier sure would have been handy against Buutenks or Cell Max

Gohan is notoriously cocky and overzealous when his power is drawn out to its fullest, and when given the opportunity to dominate a foe that has caused him great pain, he loses his sense of reason in exchange for cruelty and brutality. By the time Buu absorbed Gotenks, he was still under the impression that Super Saiyan was an unnecessary power-up, and Buu made short work of him.

With Cell Max, I suppose he was just holding out until Beast popped.

 

[Damage3245]

Fusions are currently accepted as automatically being more powerful than the strongest forms of their halves, meaning that a Hypothetical Gokhan is automatically more powerful than a Hypothetical SSJ2 Ultimate Gohan. As for Ultimate Gohan being able to transform, not only has the Super anime confirmed that Ultimate Gohan can enter Super Saiyan, instead refusing to, but the Daizenshuu 2 has clarified that Ultimate Gohan retains the ability, but deems its power unneeded, as per the Elder Kai's dialogue—which Kakarot directly confirms.

SSJ2 Ultimate Gohan is not a thing.

Gohan does power-up in the original manga "just like turning Super Saiyan" but doesn't need his hair to turn gold which is dimissed as just "showbiz." Which this shows is that Gohan is accessing his full power in this state without transformations.

If he could actually multiply his power futher by another 500x or 1000x, then it wouldn't be dismissed as mere "showbiz". That would make no sense. And he definitely would have done it when he was struggling to fight Buutenks. It would make absolutely no sense for Gohan not to use Super Saiyan if it would actually provide him with some benefit.

I disagree with including the "Hypothetical SSJ2 Ultimate Gohan" in this proposal.

Gohan is notoriously cocky and overzealous when his power is drawn out to its fullest, and when given the opportunity to dominate a foe that has caused him great pain, he loses his sense of reason in exchange for cruelty and brutality. By the time Buu absorbed Gotenks, he was still under the impression that Super Saiyan was an unnecessary power-up, and Buu made short work of him.

I don't agree. Gohan shows no signs of cockiness when he's getting his ass beaten by Buutenks.


This is also contradicted by the fact that in the Super Hero movie, Gohan starts off as Super Saiyan before accessing his Ultimate Form... Why would he stop using Super Saiyan if that would provide an additional 50x multiplier on top of his Ultimate Form?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Alright, I concede on that point.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Buu adding Gohan's power to his own makes for a >2x multiplier, no?

 

[Eseseso]

Buu adding Gohan's power to his own makes for a >2x multiplier, no?

Yeah.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Actually, another thing, why is Powerhouse Cell treated as a x500 multiplier instead of a x10 one?

 

[Damage3245]

Actually, another thing, why is Powerhouse Cell treated as a x500 multiplier instead of a x10 one?

That's a good point.

 

[Eseseso]

Kinda iffy on that myself.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Honestly there is an upgrade to scaling chain to be had but some things might need to be adjusted for points above.

 

[LordTracer]

Two things, Powerhouse Cell should only have a 10x increase, not 500x, and I’m not seeing how you got the 20x increase for SSJ3 Gotenks?

 

[Eseseso]

Honestly kinda wondering why we don't just use the Daizenshuu's 4x multiplier for SSJ3.

But yes, Powerhouse Cell should be 10x only.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Actually, another thing, why is Powerhouse Cell treated as a x500 multiplier instead of a x10 one?

For starters, Cell copies Trunks's transformation.
Moreover, when Cell transforms, its aura either turns into a continuous white flame (v. Trunks) or golden explosion with a translucent white inside (v. Gohan), which is a design aspect associated with Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Second Grade, and Super Saiyan Third Grade, whereas, normally, Cell's aura is black.

Also, in the anime, Cell's aura has the same sound effect as the Super Saiyan, which is in contrast to non-Super Saiyan auras.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I’m not seeing how you got the 20x increase for SSJ3 Gotenks?

• Every 20x—in the case of Gotenks—and 1,000x is an application of an estimation of the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier. Because Super Saiyan 2 allowed Gohan to turn around a stomp and dominate Powerhouse Cell and the stronger Revived Cell with less than half of his strength remaining, the difference between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan needs to be at least twice as large as the difference between Super Saiyan and Third Grade Super Saiyan, which is 10x, meaning that Super Saiyan 2 is, bare minimum, 1,000x.

20x SSJ Gotenks.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Honestly kinda wondering why we don't just use the Daizenshuu's 4x multiplier for SSJ3.

The only Super Saiyan multiplier present in the Daizenshuu is the 50x. The 4x metric is from the Super Exciting Guide.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

For starters, Cell copies Trunks's transformation.
Moreover, when Cell transforms, its aura either turns into a continuous white flame (v. Trunks) or golden explosion with a translucent white inside (v. Gohan), which is a design aspect associated with Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Second Grade, and Super Saiyan Third Grade, whereas, normally, Cell's aura is black.

Also, in the anime, Cell's aura has the same sound effect as the Super Saiyan, which is in contrast to non-Super Saiyan auras.

The original series and the TV anime are accepted as parallel worlds.
Does that mean that non-contradictory TV anime-original databook information can be applied to the original series?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

For starters, Cell copies Trunks's transformation.
Moreover, when Cell transforms, its aura either turns into a continuous white flame (v. Trunks) or golden explosion with a translucent white inside (v. Gohan), which is a design aspect associated with Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Second Grade, and Super Saiyan Third Grade, whereas, normally, Cell's aura is black.

Also, in the anime, Cell's aura has the same sound effect as the Super Saiyan, which is in contrast to non-Super Saiyan auras.

What about this scene? Wouldn't he already be in his Super Saiyan state against Gohan?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The original series and the TV anime are accepted as parallel worlds.

Pretty sure this is only for cosmology purposes. Scaling can still be different.

 

[Damage3245]

The original series and the TV anime are accepted as parallel worlds.
Does that mean that non-contradictory TV anime-original databook information can be applied to the original series?

No, I don't think so. We wouldn't apply TV anime-original info like that to the original series.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What about this scene? Wouldn't he already be in his Super Saiyan state against Gohan?

By the time Gohan transformed, Cell's aura disappeared entirely, which seems to suggest no.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

By the time Gohan transformed, Cell's aura disappeared entirely, which seems to suggest no.

I really don't see why he'd stop using his "Super Saiyan" from against Gohan, when he did so against the weaker Goku
If anything, this could possibly make Cell Games SSJ Goku x500 above Grade 3 Trunks due to the fact his power was perceived as immeasurable compared to Powerhouse Cell (Vs. Trunks) since that one never shows any yellow aura as far as I am aware, but that's still kinda iffy

 

[Damage3245]

By the time Gohan transformed, Cell's aura disappeared entirely, which seems to suggest no.

Super Saiyans do not necessarily have their aura active at all times.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Updated.

 

[BlastX]

Shouldn't we note in the profile that Vegerot can also use Super Saiyan 2 and 3?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

This also kinda affects Toei, so Imma put it's new scaling chain here too

Ultimate Gohan > Post-RoSaT SSJ3 Gotenks > (x20) 3.096 TeraFoe > Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks > (x50) 154.8 GigaFoe > Post-RoSaT Gotenks > Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks > (50x) 3.096 GigaFoe > Majin Buu > Pre-RoSaT Gotenks > SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta > (x20) 61.92 MegaFoe > Other World Saga/Buu Saga SSJ Goku ~ Pikkon > Revived/Angel Cell > Powerhouse [Grade 3] Cell > (x10) 3.096 MegaFoe > Perfect Cell > Cell Games Saga/Pre-Training SSJ Gohan > (x50) 309.6 KiloFoe > Cell Games Saga/Pre-Training Gohan > Supreme Kai > Piccolo ~ Cell Juniors ~ Suppressed Perfect Cell ~ Super [Grade 3] Trunks > (x10) 6.192 KiloFoe > Grade 2 SSJ Trunks > Semi-Perfect Cell > 619.2 Foe

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Isn't Grade 4 stronger than Grade 3 in the TV anime continuity?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Possibly so, but no one made a thread to get that accepted

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'll save that for later, then.

Anywho, what about the rest of the scaling chain?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Update: SSJ Goku presented enough power to send Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and Tien into a frenzy at 50%.
SSJ Goku 2x as powerful as Grade 3 Trunks, perhaps, or has this been rejected before?

 

[Eseseso]

Update: SSJ Goku presented enough power to send Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and Tien into a frenzy at 50%.
SSJ Goku 2x as powerful as Grade 3 Trunks, perhaps, or has this been rejected before?

Nah, I think we already use this.

You're good.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Alrighty, then. Everything is adjusted.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Why is Base Gohan above Cell Games SSJ Goku btw?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Has the "Supreme Kai = SSJ Goku because Dabura = Cell" statement been rejected?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'm sure there is some way to scale the base Buu Saga Saiyans to Cell Games Saga SSJ Goku, but I sure as hell don't know it.