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Bleach Revisions

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> 1. Ulquiorra tells Ichigo that there are three Espadas stronger than himself. Not four.

What does this have to do with anything?

> 2. Ulquiorra says that his most amazing ability isn't his offensive power but his regeneration ability,

What does this have to do with anything?

> 3. We have the statements about Yammy been stronger than Ulquiorra from the manga where the author drew first form Ulquiorra, databook doesn't mentioned Segunda Etapa and I don't know about the novel statement.

Without an explanation I'm not sure what you're trying to say with mentioning first form Ulquiorra. Are you saying that Yammy's statement doesn't mean he's stronger than 2nd Resureccion Ulquiorra?

> 5. Ichigo was able to harm and cut Base Aizen who one shot Hallibel.

What does this have to do with Ulquiorra?

> Aizen knew about Segunda Etapa since he left Ulquiorra there and told Ichigo that he knew of the new power he found against Ulquiorra.

Leaving Ulquiorra behind does not mean he knew about Segunda Etapa.
 
Damage3245 said:
1. Ulquiorra tells Ichigo that there are three Espadas stronger than himself. Not four.
Click to expand...
Ulquiorra is basically leaving Yammy out of the power scaling.
Damage3245 said:
> 2. Ulquiorra says that his most amazing ability isn't his offensive power but his regeneration ability,
Click to expand...
Ulquiorra isn't the strongest Espada.
Damage3245 said:
> 3. We have the statements about Yammy been stronger than Ulquiorra from the manga where the author drew first form Ulquiorra, databook doesn't mentioned Segunda Etapa and I don't know about the novel statement.
Click to expand...
If Kubo had intention of Yammy been stronger than Segunda Etapa he would had drawn that form instead of the first release alongside the Yammy statement of been stronger than Ulquiorra.
Damage3245 said:
> Aizen knew about Segunda Etapa since he left Ulquiorra there and told Ichigo that he knew of the new power he found against Ulquiorra.
Click to expand...
Aizen mentions that he knew Ichigo got a power up from that fight. He expected it.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
  • Res Yammy and Angry Res Yammy (multiple databook, novel, and manga statements saying he's stronger than SE Ulq, survived a Getsuga from Post res Hollow Mask Ichigo at half power)
  • Aizen (stronger than all the Espada)
  • Post resurrection Hollow Mask Ichigo (damaged Yammy at half power, damaged Aizen at full power)
  • Gin (Ichigo needed to Hollowify to block Gin's attack)
  • Isshin (pushed Aizen to his limits)
  • Urahara (damaged Chrysalis Aizen)
  • Yoruichi with the armor and shunko (damaged Chrysalis Aizen)
  • Kenpachi (defeated Yammy while arguing with Byakuya, Aizen was cautious of Kenpachi's power as per a databook iirc)
  • Byakuya (defeated Yammy while arguing with Kenpachi)
  • Shikai Yamamoto (tussled with Aizen, Aizen wasn't sure if he could beat Yama with conventional means)
  • Res Wonderweiss, maybe (scratched and bruised Yama with a barrage of punches)
  • 50% Full Hollow Ichigo (part of the calc)
  • Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra (part of the calc)
  • Lost Agent Byakuya (as strong as before at least)
  • Tsukishima (fought Byakuya)
  • Lost Agent Kenpachu (at least as strong as before)
  • Lost Agent Ichigo (fought Tsukishima)
  • Ginjo (fought Ichigo)
Bolded = majority agree, Unbolded = majority disagree, Italicized = neutral

In case it's not obvious these are people potentially scaling to the SE Ulq FH Ichigo cero clash calc.
Click to expand...
It was agreed that 50% FH Ichigo gets 3/4 the calc (1.9E24 J) and SE Ulq gets 1/4 (6.4E23 J), so crunching out the numbers for the actualy tiers for the proposed characters who scale go as follows:
  • 50% Full Hollow Ichigo scales to 3/4 of the calc, High 6-B (1.9E24 J)
  • Full Power Full Hollow Ichigo scales to twice 50% FH Ichigo, 6-A (3.8E24 J)
  • Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra scales to 1/4 of the calc, High 6-B (6.4E23 J)
  • Resurreccion Yammy scales above SE Ulq, at least High 6-B (6.4E23 J)
  • Rage Res Yammy scales to twice Res Yammy, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Kenpachi scales to Rage Res Yammy, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Byakuya scales to Rage Res Yammy, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Post Resurrection Hollow Mask Ichigo scales to twice Res Yammy, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Aizen scales to above the Espada, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Isshin scales to Aizen, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Urahara maybe scales to Aizen, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Shunko Armor Yoruichi maybe scales to Aizen, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Gin maybe scales to Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Shikai Yamamoto scales to Aizen, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Lost Agent Byakuya scales to his Arrancar Arc self, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Tsukishima scales to Byakuya, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Fullbring Ichigo scales to Tsukishima, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Fullbring Shikai Ichigo scales above FB Ichigo, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Fullbring Bankai Ichigo scales to 5x FB Shikai Ichigo, at least 6-A (6.4E24 J)
  • Ginjo scales to Tsukishima, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Shikai Ginjo scales to FB Shikai Ichigo, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Bankai Ginjo scales to FB Bankai Ichigo, at least 6-A (6.4E24 J)
  • Chrysalis Aizen scales above his past self, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Mullet Aizen scales above his past self, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Resurreccion Wonderweiss maybe scales to Shikai Yama, at least High 6-B (1.3E24 J)
  • Probably a shit ton of TYBW characters
If Damage is going to keep disagreeing about Yammy and Aizen scaling, can we get other staff in here to look at it, since literally everyone else agrees that Aizen and Yammy should scale.

I also want to comment on how SE Ulq's reiatsu seeped through into the canopy of Los Noches, we see that when Uryu is rising up to watch Ichigo fight. So, we know SE Ulq's reiatsu was felt within Los Noches, and to argue Yammy couldn't sense it because he couldn't sense the reiatsu of lesser characters like Human Ichigo in the World of the Living in the beginning of the arc is asinine.
 
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Even if you use it as an argument of his feats being trash, how do power leveling feats somehow get plastered into sensing feats?

Especially when there is another character that should have much better sensing, and the power in question is so blatantly massive that Uryu and Orihime were left speechless just going through the hole in the ceiling.

And that was R1.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
I will enjoy the day when barely logical opinions like this stop mattering against actual logic.

Like, no, really. The actual **** kind of come back is this supposed to be?
Click to expand...
Damn son you like to wasting your time over nothing huh, Imagined get triggered over 1 line of words of a convo that doesn't even matter anymore.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
That's true. If "triggered" is the sort of card you wanna play, I have to agree anything you say is a waste of time.
Click to expand...
That sad, when waste of time person like me had done much more to the verse than most of fan such as yourself.
Beside you did not exactly contribute anything in this thread either.
 
I am not sure when level of contribution stopped illogical statements from being illogical.

Still, this is pretty unrelated to the thread at all, so let's stop unimportant derailment.
 
Why would Yammy even scale to Aizen?

1/3 power Ichigo was able to push Yammy to the ground and not cut him. Okay, sure. What that has to do with 100% Ichigo cutting Base Aizen?
There’s no power scaling in this scenario at all.
 
AppleLord said:
Why would Yammy even scale to Aizen?

1/3 power Ichigo was able to push Yammy to the ground and not cut him. Okay, sure. What that has to do with 100% Ichigo cutting Base Aizen?
There’s no power scaling in this scenario at all.
Click to expand...
Yammy doesn't.

1/2 power Hollow Mask Ichigo slammed Res Yammy down.

It has nothing to do with Ichigo cutting Aizen.

I think I have an idea of what you're getting at. They may scale to the same tier, but that's not because they're equal. They are both upscaling from the same calc by an arbitrary amount. So because we don't know that arbitrary amount, it looks like they're equal, but they're not.
 
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> I also want to comment on how SE Ulq's reiatsu seeped through into the canopy of Los Noches, we see that when Uryu is rising up to watch Ichigo fight. So, we know SE Ulq's reiatsu was felt within Los Noches, and to argue Yammy couldn't sense it because he couldn't sense the reiatsu of lesser characters like Human Ichigo in the World of the Living in the beginning of the arc is asinine.

Uryu only felt that because he and Orihime were traveling up to the top of the canopy.

There is nothing saying that the other people on the ground could feel the battle, especially since they didn't even seem to be aware of it until Ichigo's Cero pierced the roof and Rukia noticed Ichigo's Reiatsu for the first time (also when Ulquiorra was half-dead at this point).
 
Damage3245 said:
> I also want to comment on how SE Ulq's reiatsu seeped through into the canopy of Los Noches, we see that when Uryu is rising up to watch Ichigo fight. So, we know SE Ulq's reiatsu was felt within Los Noches, and to argue Yammy couldn't sense it because he couldn't sense the reiatsu of lesser characters like Human Ichigo in the World of the Living in the beginning of the arc is asinine.

Uryu only felt that because he and Orihime were traveling up to the top of the canopy.

There is nothing saying that the other people on the ground could feel the battle, especially since they didn't even seem to be aware of it until Ichigo's Cero pierced the roof and Rukia noticed Ichigo's Reiatsu for the first time (also when Ulquiorra was half-dead at this point).
Click to expand...
You can't prove that Yammy didn't sense it and I can't prove that anyone other than Uryu felt it either. Big whoop doesn't matter then. Yammy scales above Ulquiorra off of a variety of statements anyhow.
 
@Arc7Kuroi; a variety of statements? So far I've only seen the one which is Yammy claiming to be stronger than the people Ichigo has fought against (Espada 4, 5 and 6) and the databook repeating that.

If there is a huge variety of statements, then they should all be listed.
 
It was agreed that 50% FH Ichigo gets 3/4 the calc (1.9E24 J) and SE Ulq gets 1/4 (6.4E23 J), so crunching out the numbers for the actualy tiers for the proposed characters who scale go as follows:
Click to expand...

Why do Chrysalis and Mullet Aizen scale below VL Ichigo when both versions are transcendent beings? And IMO base Aizen should be > VL Ichigo.
 
Scaling relied on Aizen being superior to Espada and not 100% hollow Ichigo. 100% hollow Ichigo never fought anyone
So he kinda doesn't scale to anyone, You can say Aizen stronger than him as a ''Transcendent being'' but i cant find reasons for base Aizen.
 
100% Vasto Lorde + Quincy Zangetsu = Merged Zangetsu that fought the Ichigo that injured Base Aizen for months. He wasn’t trying to kill him that is a given but he fought a being that was x50 stronger than Vasto Lorde. Ulquiorra lost to a nerfed 1/3 powerful Vasto Lorde.
 
@Damage3245
The statements Arc is referring to are the strongest Espada ones as well as the one that names Ulq. And yes, you don’t think Aizen knew about SE but the Databook isn’t limited to Aizen’s knowledge and nothing states that Ulq is no longer an Espada while using SE.

On Wonderweiss, I don’t think he should scale to the calc if the reasoning is based on Yama. We know that R1 can beat Bankai Kensei and base can one shot Jushiro while just his scream is stronger than R1 Harribel so it’s not like he needs the calc for a tier. Unless people agree on 1-3 scaling above/to SE, Wonderweiss shouldn’t be scaling to the figure.

On Aizen, base obviously scales above SE but Chrysalis and Mullet being transcendent don’t matter. Butterfly is the one with the statement of transcending all Shinigami and Hollow which means the previous versions did not. No reason to scale them above others beyond a title that doesn’t actually support it.
 
@AnonymousBlank; so a total of two statements? Not really a variety of supporting statements then.

I can easily believe that Released Yammy is superior to the likes of Released Stark, Released Ulquiorra, the rest of the Espada... but I don't think those statements alone are good enough to support to rate Yammy as believe about Second Resureccion Ulquiorra.

Ulquiorra makes it a point that he alone out of the Espada has achieved a Second Resureccion - that he hasn't even shown this form to Aizen. We don't have enough evidence to support Yammy being aware of it either as Arc7Kuroi conceded.

I think there's a limit to how far we should take our assumptions in this kind of scaling, where we're sorely lacking in feats for these characters and having to rely on statements that are up to interpretation.

As I said earlier in the thread, the most I think Yammy should get is a possibly rating for possibly scaling to that form of Ulquiorra because I definitely don't think it is as clear-cut as you say it is.

We also don't take the databook as objective fact since that same databook points out that Yammy only gets a 10x multiplier between his base form and his released form.
 
@Damage3245 That isn't how databooks work, they aren't suddenly irrelevant because one thing they said isn't used, the Bleach databooks don't have a history of being laughably inaccurate unlike some others, so the statement of Yammy being > Ulquiorra is perfectly valid, all it comes down to is if that statement alone is enough and in my opinion it is, given that there are really no contradictions.
 
Purgy said:
@Damage3245 That isn't how databooks work, they aren't suddenly irrelevant because one thing they said isn't used, the Bleach databooks don't have a history of being laughably inaccurate unlike some others, so the statement of Yammy being > Ulquiorra is perfectly valid, all it comes down to is if that statement alone is enough and in my opinion it is, given that there are really no contradictions.
Click to expand...
Databook is referring to Yammy been stronger than Ulquiorra first form exactly how the manga show the form with the statement in the same panel.
 
The databook does show a panel of Yammy saying it yes, but it also reaffirms what Yammy states, that he's above Nnoitra, Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, but the difference here is that the databook isn't limited by not knowing of R2.
 
@Purgy; if it is just repeating what Yammy said that doesn't magically change the statement to also include R2.
 
It does, otherwise you're arguing the databook is giving false information, the people that wrote it are aware of R2 so they wouldn't say he's above Ulquiorra in general if it wasn't true.

The databook isn't just quoting what Yammy says, the databook is reaffirming it, but again, this time there's no argument that they aren't aware of R2.
 
The databook is meant provide additional details on things the manga doesn’t touch upon or clarifies,so when it says that Yammy is the strongest it means that Ulq’s R2 is taken into account.Otherwise what value does a databook have it just repeats the manga’s statement?
 
@Makstar05: I don't think it has much value.

Anyway, I've given my thoughts.

I think it best to rate Yammy as;

At least X, possibly Y

For being stronger than R1 Starrk, and possibly stronger than Ulquiorra.
 
Why doesn't it have much value? I don't think there's any need for a possibly rating given that the databooks statement is pretty clear.

Maybe if there were contradictions to Yammy being above R2 Ulquiorra then sure, but there aren't.
 
@Damage3245
Statements that say he is the strongest. What more do we need when there are no contradictions?

Why is an objective source that knows more than the characters not enough to support in verse statements?

Being the only one to have a power doesn’t automatically make you stronger or even support the notion. It has absolutely no bearing on anything unless there are two people who are otherwise stated to be equal. The data book statements aren’t dependent on Yammy or Aizen’s knowledge. No clue why you are even bringing it up.

Ignoring that Yammy does have scaling to stronger people, you are basically saying that the equivalent of the narrator/WoG/omniscient source is not a valid source of information when the people in question are, by your own words, “sorely lacking in feats”. All the scaling is either to people in a vacuum or people stronger so how can the statements not be enough?

It is very clear cut. The arguments against it are that “Aizen doesn’t know” (which doesn’t matter), “Yammy doesn’t know” (also doesn’t matter), “SE Ulq isn’t an Espada” (completely unfounded) etc etc etc. What part of “Yammy is the strongest Espada” isn’t clear cut?

So a source of info whose sole purpose is to provide more knowledge than that of the source material isn’t objective because it maybe got one thing wrong? There is one statement for his Res being x10 while there are multiple for his Res making him the strongest Espada. It’s pretty obvious which one would take precedence.

@AppleLord
The picture being accurate or not to the form he scales above doesn’t matter. If it is accurate, then so is Aizen’s “I planned your life” so Yammy still scales. If it isn’t, then it applies to SE Ulq. Either way, it’s still outnumbered by the statements of Yammy being the strongest Espada which Ulq still falls under the umbrella of by his own word.
 
@AnonymousBlank: I still think a possibly rating is the best outcome. The statement is not as clear-cut as you're pretending it is. It isn't specifically referring to R2 Ulquiorra, you're just assuming it is, when the possibility is there that R2 Ulquiorra is completely outside of the Espada ranking.

I don't see why we need to make that assumption at all. Does it even say which version of Yammy it is that is the strongest? Maybe it only says that because his Resureccion lets him keep growing stronger and stronger as he feels more rage.
 
I still think that the scaling for Aizen and Yama is weird, as in this way they are somehow much weaker than characters like Tokinada, who we know for a fact that isn't as strong as either of the 2:
20200904_225759.jpg
Polish_20200904_225243889.jpg
Polish_20200904_225319805.jpg

Polish_20200904_230342678-1.jpg
 
Ovy7 said:
I still think that the scaling for Aizen and Yama is weird, as in this way they are somehow much weaker than characters like Tokinada, who we know for a fact that isn't as strong as either of the 2:
20200904_225759.jpg
Polish_20200904_225243889.jpg
Polish_20200904_225319805.jpg

Polish_20200904_230342678-1.jpg
Click to expand...
that why I said we should ignore them right now, the will be upgraded again I don't see any point in discussing them right now
 
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