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@Shadowbokunohero; what are your thoughts on Yammy and the middle ground proposal for his rating up above?
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Bleach Revisions
- Thread starter USklaverei
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Yeah I think the "Possibly" is for the best.
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Regarding the Aizen and Yamamoto scaling, this CRT is solely based off the FH Ichigo vs SE Ulq calc.
If there's a way to scale Yama and Aizen higher in a manner unrelated to this calc then it's probably best for a separate CRT.
Base Aizen might be getting his own calc to be evaluated in a later CRT anyhow that puts him above any of the Espada calcs.
@Damage3245
The databook reiterating what Yammy said just means the narrator supports Yammy's claim. What reason exists to discredit Yammy's statement? "He couldn't sense human or shikai Ichigo in the WotL" is not a valid argument for Yammy not being able to sense SE Ulq's spiritual pressure, considering start of Arrancar Arc shikai Ichigo would have essentially zero spiritual pressure when compared to SE Ulq.
The only reason any Espada can enter a release state is because Aizen used the Hogyoku to turn them into Arrancar. Aizen is the one who granted Ulquiorra the ability to use Resurreccion and Resurreccion: Segunda Etapa; despite that Aizen still gave Ulquiorra rank 4. To argue Aizen didn't know about Ulq's full power is ridiculous.
Yammy doesn't need his statements to scale regardless. Here's why: Aizen scales above all the Espada, Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo damaged Aizen at full power, Res Yammy survived an attack from Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo at half power. So, regardless Angry Res Yammy is relative to Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo and that Ichigo is relative to Aizen, and Aizen's above the Espada.
Yammy and Aizen then being scaled above the same value doesn't mean Yammy = Aizen, since we don't know how arbitrarily above that calc Aizen and Yammy are.
Aizen >= Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo ~ Angry Res Yammy > Res Yammy > the rest of the Espada
Yammy scales based on statements and then scaling from other characters who scale above the feat, I seriously don't understand why you're pushing this "possibly" narrative for Yammy. We have feats and statements what else do you want, the author to write you a letter saying what every character scales to?
If there's a way to scale Yama and Aizen higher in a manner unrelated to this calc then it's probably best for a separate CRT.
Base Aizen might be getting his own calc to be evaluated in a later CRT anyhow that puts him above any of the Espada calcs.
@Damage3245
The databook reiterating what Yammy said just means the narrator supports Yammy's claim. What reason exists to discredit Yammy's statement? "He couldn't sense human or shikai Ichigo in the WotL" is not a valid argument for Yammy not being able to sense SE Ulq's spiritual pressure, considering start of Arrancar Arc shikai Ichigo would have essentially zero spiritual pressure when compared to SE Ulq.
The only reason any Espada can enter a release state is because Aizen used the Hogyoku to turn them into Arrancar. Aizen is the one who granted Ulquiorra the ability to use Resurreccion and Resurreccion: Segunda Etapa; despite that Aizen still gave Ulquiorra rank 4. To argue Aizen didn't know about Ulq's full power is ridiculous.
Yammy doesn't need his statements to scale regardless. Here's why: Aizen scales above all the Espada, Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo damaged Aizen at full power, Res Yammy survived an attack from Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo at half power. So, regardless Angry Res Yammy is relative to Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo and that Ichigo is relative to Aizen, and Aizen's above the Espada.
Yammy and Aizen then being scaled above the same value doesn't mean Yammy = Aizen, since we don't know how arbitrarily above that calc Aizen and Yammy are.
Aizen >= Post Res Hollow Mask Ichigo ~ Angry Res Yammy > Res Yammy > the rest of the Espada
Yammy scales based on statements and then scaling from other characters who scale above the feat, I seriously don't understand why you're pushing this "possibly" narrative for Yammy. We have feats and statements what else do you want, the author to write you a letter saying what every character scales to?
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Now that the formula of the calc from the OP got debunked and rejected, I don't think that there is something you guys could now with this thread
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@Arc7Kuroi
I get what you are trying to argue with the Hogyoku point but Ulq is a natural Arrancar. Pretty sure the story that shows this is in the same databook that gives the Yammy statements. Aizen would have full knowledge on the powers of people like Barragan, Harribel, Nel etc but guys like Starrk and Ulq are exempt from this.
Also big rip to the calc.
I get what you are trying to argue with the Hogyoku point but Ulq is a natural Arrancar. Pretty sure the story that shows this is in the same databook that gives the Yammy statements. Aizen would have full knowledge on the powers of people like Barragan, Harribel, Nel etc but guys like Starrk and Ulq are exempt from this.
Also big rip to the calc.
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I'm pretty sure the Aizen's the one who gave them Zanpakuto's to seal away their power for release (with the Hogyoku of course). Which would still mean Aizen is the reason Starrk and Ulq can enter and de-enter release states.
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They don’t need to be given Zanpakuto like Shinigami get Asauchi afaik. Arrancars just split their soul and their power takes the form of swords with the exception of Coyote “big stronk” Starrk. Anyway, the thread is done so no point continuing here. If you really want to you can hit me up on my wall or on discord.
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Looking through the shockwave thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/shockwave-formula-time-to-put-some-limits.108302/
It appears the (density/time^2)(radius/1.05)^5 formula is allowed to be used specifically for the radii of explosions that deal significant damage.
We see the explosion kick a large volume of sand proportional to ~1/3 the height of Los Noches at some points. DontTalkDT said that shockwaves that shatter glass and whatnot would be included within the "lethal range" and I'm not 100% sure but I want to say kicking up that much sand falls well within the realms of a "glass shattering" shockwave.
Assuming the sand is 1 meter thick and raised only 1 meter above the ground to lowball would still require 4E14 joules (town level amounts of energy) to do so using potential energy. I'm sure using kinetic energy would yield a much higher result for moving that sand. I don't know what exactly is the threshold for the lethal range of a shockwave to be applied to the aforementioned formula, but I feel like kicking up this much sand would enable the calc to fall within the lethal range for the shockwave.
Given the parameters for the formula being: it is used for an explosion where the radius used is for the distance in which the shockwave deals significant damage. I'd argue this calc follows those rules. The clash results in an explosion and the shockwave radius used is that which kicks up an enormous amount of sand.
@Damage3245 I'd like you weigh in on if I correctly interpreted the parameters that need to be met in order to apply the above formula.
It appears the (density/time^2)(radius/1.05)^5 formula is allowed to be used specifically for the radii of explosions that deal significant damage.
We see the explosion kick a large volume of sand proportional to ~1/3 the height of Los Noches at some points. DontTalkDT said that shockwaves that shatter glass and whatnot would be included within the "lethal range" and I'm not 100% sure but I want to say kicking up that much sand falls well within the realms of a "glass shattering" shockwave.
Assuming the sand is 1 meter thick and raised only 1 meter above the ground to lowball would still require 4E14 joules (town level amounts of energy) to do so using potential energy. I'm sure using kinetic energy would yield a much higher result for moving that sand. I don't know what exactly is the threshold for the lethal range of a shockwave to be applied to the aforementioned formula, but I feel like kicking up this much sand would enable the calc to fall within the lethal range for the shockwave.
Given the parameters for the formula being: it is used for an explosion where the radius used is for the distance in which the shockwave deals significant damage. I'd argue this calc follows those rules. The clash results in an explosion and the shockwave radius used is that which kicks up an enormous amount of sand.
@Damage3245 I'd like you weigh in on if I correctly interpreted the parameters that need to be met in order to apply the above formula.
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> So, we should not use this formula and stick with ground explosion and air bust? - M3X
> I would say so. - DT
> DT is saying that instead of using the shockwave calc for explosions we should use our standard explosion formulas. - Dargoo
From what I understand, we're supposed to be using our standard formulas instead of the new one.
So the calc would need to be updated.
> I would say so. - DT
> DT is saying that instead of using the shockwave calc for explosions we should use our standard explosion formulas. - Dargoo
From what I understand, we're supposed to be using our standard formulas instead of the new one.
So the calc would need to be updated.
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> It needs to be a shockwave that does significant damage - DT
He also says this in reference to using the formula, is it worth getting another opinion then?
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Oh shit, a Bleach CRT.
How could I miss this?
How could I miss this?
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Currently the calc is nulled due to this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/shockwave-formula-time-to-put-some-limits.108302/
However, I'm still a bit confused by the conclusions reached by said thread, because DT says if the formula is to be used it should be used for an explosion and the shockwave radius should be of that which causes significant damage. At the same time they sort of imply that maybe the formula shouldn't be used at all. It didn't appear that a concrete conclusion was reached, like if we can use the formula as long as it meets certain criteria or if it can't be used at all.
I feel it's important to eliminate that ambiguity before we disregard the calc this thread is based on and the following 3 pages of discussion.
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can someone give me the summarized version of all that is being talked about?
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My theory is someone specifically questioned the validity of this calc because of this thread
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Maybe, maybe not, I'd still like clarification if the method is inherently incorrect or if it can be used given a variety of criterion are met.
Damage doesn't think Res Yammy or Aizen should scale above SE Ulq. Everyone else disagrees regarding Aizen, and most disagree regrading Res Yammy; meaning most agree Res Yammy and Aizen scale above SE Ulq. (We also currently accept that Aizen > Res Yammy > SE Ulq)
For Res Yammy we have multiple in manga statements, databook statements, and alleged novel statements. As well as Res Yammy scaling to post resurrection Ichigo.
For Aizen we have the Gin statement, Aizen calling the Espada weak, Aizen tanking the high level hado from Yama with minimal burns, and Aizen saying all of Ichigo's battles played out in his hand implying he knew of SE Ulq.
Against Res Yammy we have that Yammy might not be able to sense SE Ulq's power.
Against Aizen we have Aizen might not have known about SE Ulq's power.
That is the bare bones of it, dialogue halted because the calc method might be invalid. My last couple posts express my confusion with disregarding this calc.
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i agree on the aizen and yammy >>>>>SE ulquiorra as well
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@Arc7Kuroi; to clarify a point:
> We also currently accept that Aizen > Res Yammy > SE Ulq
We don't currently accept Res Yammy > SE Ulq.
> We also currently accept that Aizen > Res Yammy > SE Ulq
We don't currently accept Res Yammy > SE Ulq.
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Country level (Stated multiple times in the Manga, Novel and Databook that he is above Ulquiorra, Nnoitra and Grimmjow) | Country level (Stated in a Databook Yammy's 2nd form doubles his powers)
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either way i agree with yammy >>>>.SE ulquiorra
and i thought it was already common that aizen >>>>>>> all espada
and i thought it was already common that aizen >>>>>>> all espada
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Aizen is clearly greater than any of the Espada, this is stated directly by Aizen when cutting them down casually, and it was stated by Gin that the only reason why the Espada all follow Aizen instead of killing themselves by being lorded over by a Shinigami is because of his overwhelming strength.
I think Res 2 Yammy being > than SE Ulq is more debatable, however.
The manga statements come from Yammy himself, who is the dumbest character in the series, and whose senses are so terrible that he needed Ulq to confirm whether Tastuki was a viable opponent or not, so I don't think they are 100% credible. The databooks likely just regurgitate what was said by Yammy, so again, not 100% indictive that it is an accurate assessment of the character's strength.
The novels' statements might be more legitimate, however, although I don't know what they are.
I am very much under the belief that Ulq was the strongest, or at least the most dangerous Espada, mainly because of the revelations stated by Aizen later in the arc, and just how well it works narratively, I can specify if needed.
So in my opinion, Aizen is def greater than ALL the Espada, and Res 2 only might be physically stronger than SE Ulq.
I think Res 2 Yammy being > than SE Ulq is more debatable, however.
The manga statements come from Yammy himself, who is the dumbest character in the series, and whose senses are so terrible that he needed Ulq to confirm whether Tastuki was a viable opponent or not, so I don't think they are 100% credible. The databooks likely just regurgitate what was said by Yammy, so again, not 100% indictive that it is an accurate assessment of the character's strength.
The novels' statements might be more legitimate, however, although I don't know what they are.
I am very much under the belief that Ulq was the strongest, or at least the most dangerous Espada, mainly because of the revelations stated by Aizen later in the arc, and just how well it works narratively, I can specify if needed.
So in my opinion, Aizen is def greater than ALL the Espada, and Res 2 only might be physically stronger than SE Ulq.
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@Warren Valion; that's why I suggested the "At least X, possibly Y" rating for Yammy.
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I am fine with this rating since this topic is very contentious.
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I disagree with your part about the databooks statement, it wasn't just a quote verbatim of what Yammy himself said, rather it was more so presented in way that confirms Yammy is indeed above Ulquiorra, Nnoitra and Grimmjow
Also, Ulquiorra probably is the strongest Espada, as in, he'd beat any of the others in a 1 on 1 fight, but Yammy could still be superior to Ulquiorra in raw power, which I believe he is.
Not that any of this really matters anymore considering the calc has been invalidated, any reason why this should remain open?
Also, Ulquiorra probably is the strongest Espada, as in, he'd beat any of the others in a 1 on 1 fight, but Yammy could still be superior to Ulquiorra in raw power, which I believe he is.
Not that any of this really matters anymore considering the calc has been invalidated, any reason why this should remain open?
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Very possible.
That's why I said I consider SE Ulq the most dangerous Espada at the very least, especially since Yammy's power can continuously grow with anger as well, and said the topic was debatable.
I see both sides of the argument and land somewhere in the middle, personally.
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Okay.
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