Kenpachi's upgrade

[Guacamolefletcher]

Introduction / why​

As we all know, Kenpachi was stronger as a kid due to his mental nerfs. The anime gives us some insane implications on this.

Main evidence​

While Unohana is describing his previous opponents, and how he could've beat them without mental nerfs, she gives specific examples. She mentions Kenny's fights with Ichigo and Nnoitora directly, but the new information is as she's expalining the mental nerfs leading to him losing or narrowly winning, we get a flashback to Kenpachi's fight with Royd Lloyd/ Fake Yhwach.

Right after she says:

"...Was it because they were strong? I'm sure that's how it seemed to the others. But I knew that wasn't the case"
The implication is that he didn't lose to Royd Lloyd because of his strength, but rather because of the power supression. This implies a non-mentally nerfed Kenpachi could beat Royd Lloyd, and this would also scale him to Shikai Yamamoto.

Supporting evidence​

As Unohana finishes her fight with Kid Kenpachi, she says "this child is worthy of the title Kenpachi."

The actual Japanese raw subtitles say:

《この子だ…｡この子こそが剣八の名を持つに ふさわしい》

This child... This child is truly worthy of bearing the name 'Kenpachi.'

We know through 30 sources (I'll only use one as to not clutter the profiles), the title of Kenpachi means "the strongest shinigami," that would imply she thinks he is the strongest shinigami in actuality. Though this shouldn't extend to things like Yamamoto's bankai, as that's far too speculative, it does support the idea that he's in that Shikai Yama tier, and likely stronger.

Consistency check​

After he regains his full power, she states he has an opponent that he an fight to his heart's content, showing the real Yhwach. This is actually consistent because if Kenpachi could've beat Royd, who is accepted as holding around 75% of the real Yhwach's power, it stands to reason that he can fight evenly with the real Yhwach. Furthermore, she also states he will have 3 rivals who he'll be able to fight, those being Byakuya, Renji, and FB Ichigo. This is very consistent because FB Bankai Ichigo can fight evenly with Yhwach, and also has scaling above Shikai Yamamoto (FB Bankai Ichigo > Kisuke ~ Base Aizen ~ Shikai Yama), so it makes sense he'd be able to fight evenly with Ichigo

Finally, while I acknowledge Byakuya and Renji do not end up at this level, this doesn't cause any contradictions. While she says this, she's assuming they'll grow to that level through squad 0 training. Eventhough they are obviously not at that level in CFYOW, they surely CAN have the potential to grow to that level. Regardless, it doesn't change anything for the sake of this CRT, and is irrelevant.

Scaling:​

My idea is to keep all the eyepatch-on Kenpachi scaling the same, and to scale him to the same AP values and calcs, while giving eyepatch-less Kenpachi the scaling to Yamamoto, so we'd end up with

Eyepatch base Kenpachi: 14.169 Exatons
Eyepatch Shikai Kenpachi: 113.35 Exatons via the calc
Base Kenpachi: 133.05 Exatons via scaling to the real Yhwach and FBB Ichigo
Shikai Kenpachi: higher with Shikai

This would also be his new justification:

At least Multi-Continent level (Consistently has the upper hand against Gremmy[37][Statistics Values 9]), Moon level with Nozarashi (Zaraki obliterates a meteor[46][Statistics Values 10]), higher without eyepatch (Zaraki begins to catch up with Unohana while she trains him[38], eventually matching her[39], and then killing Bankai Unohana[40]. During the process of training with her, Zaraki removed[41] many limiters which are strongly implied to be the reason he lost against Royd Lloyd. This would mean Kenpachi is capable of defeating Royd Lloyd without them. Furthermore, he regains his past strength[43], which is stronger[44] than Unohana's power[45]. That strength is deemed worthy of the title 'Kenpachi' by Unohana, which means he is worthy of being called the strongest shinigami. He is stated to be capable of fighting evenly with Fullbring Bankai Ichigo and fighting to his heart's content with the real Yhwach.), even higher with Nozarashi, far higher with Bankai

Note: Eventhough we used to accept Zaraki's shikai as an 8x multiplier because he goes from being around 1 Gremmy level in base (+eyepatch) to surpassing 8 Gremmy's with it (+eyepatch), this doesn't abide by our multiplier standards, so it's just way safer to say "higher with Shikai"

Also obviously, thanks to Arc and Deceived

Agree: Lephyr, LordTracer
Neutral:
Disagree:

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Agree

 

[That_moron2]

At least Multi-Continent level (Consistently has the upper hand against Gremmy[37][Statistics Values 9]), Moon level with Nozarashi (Zaraki obliterates a meteor[46][Statistics Values 10]), higher without eyepatch (Zaraki begins to catch up with Unohana while she trains him[38], eventually matching her[39], and then killing Bankai Unohana[40]. During the process of training with her, Zaraki removed[41] many limiters which are strongly implied to be the reason he lost against Royd Lloyd. This would mean Kenpachi is capable of defeating Royd Lloyd without them. Furthermore, he regains his past strength[43], which is stronger[44] than Unohana's power[45]. That strength is deemed worthy of the title 'Kenpachi' by Unohana, which means he is worthy of being called the strongest shinigami. He is stated to be capable of fighting evenly with Fullbring Bankai Ichigo and fighting to his heart's content with the real Yhwach.), even higher with Nozarashi, far higher with Bankai

The rating should look like this to account for the bigger boost that Zaraki's Bankai gives him.

 

[Crobatman44]

I agree,we eating good today.

 

[Lynieryz]

Unohana's durability should downscale from Kid Kenpachi's AP since the cut with all his strength was only enough to leave a scar

 

[Bastolan27]

I agree FRA and FRB.

 

[Excellence616]

Op make sense

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Unohana's durability should downscale from Kid Kenpachi's AP since the cut with all his strength was only enough to leave a scar

What? He sliced through her, that's not downscaling from someone... He didn't fail to do so. She already downscales from Kenpachi to a reasonable extent, being less than 10x stronger.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Agree FRA

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

popping up real quick here

I can agree with this

 

[TheLav69]

Agree. I do wonder what repercussions this may have for how his eyepatch is treated in the future, though.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Nothing really, we already treat the eyepatch as such. For at least all parts of his profile that have been scrutinized by verse wide revisions.

 

[Crobatman44]

Agree. I do wonder what repercussions this may have for how his eyepatch is treated in the future, though.

nah,would only matter if the Eyepatch gets an actual number attached to it.

 

[TheLav69]

I guess part of me is a little uneasy about assigning any kind of value to his eyepatch amp due to the SAFWY statement that his new eyepatch consumes 10x the spiritual energy of the old one, which definitely has weird implications for his pre-timeskip scaling when we start throwing numbers around for his post-timeskip eyepatch.
In the same scan that has the statement, though, Mayuri seems to say that the amount it consumes can be adjusted quite a bit, so that likely solves the problem.

 

[LordTracer]

I agree with the OP, although I would add that Unohana’s justification would need to be rewritten to better explain why she scales to 14.169 Exatons now.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I guess part of me is a little uneasy about assigning any kind of value to his eyepatch amp due to the SAFWY statement that his new eyepatch consumes 10x the spiritual energy of the old one, which definitely has weird implications for his pre-timeskip scaling when we start throwing numbers around for his post-timeskip eyepatch.
In the same scan that has the statement, though, Mayuri seems to say that the amount it consumes can be adjusted quite a bit, so that likely solves the problem.

Considering the old eyepatch consumed an unknown amount, 10x an unknown amount is still an unknown amount. This doesn’t do much harm or help.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Disagree because Byakuya and renji bit and fb Ichigo isn't above Aizen. FB Ichigo is nowhere near Yhwach he was surpressed against him and Stomped him immediately when he got serious

 

[TheLav69]

Considering the old eyepatch consumed an unknown amount, 10x an unknown amount is still an unknown amount. This doesn’t do much harm or help.

10x an unknown amount is an unknown amount, true, but 1/10th a known amount is a known amount, which is what worried me when I first saw it.
That being said, though, I’d forgotten that Mayuri said the eyepatch could be adjusted in that scan, so it’s possible that it was, which means we wouldn’t be able to use it to scale his old eyepatch anyway. So I’m fine with it.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Actually the whole friends you can fight with your hearts content thing has nothing to do with scaling. Remotely. The Byakuya and Renji explanation you gave is kinda weaving around the issue. Also Aizen = Yama doesn't support the narrative he created wonder weiss because his shikai is too much. Aizen had to wait out a fire wall created by Ryujin Jakka shikai. He only is scaling to him because he cut Yama which he probably allowed just to counter kyoka suigetsu especially since he starts talking about it's counter literally right after. People also bring up Yama wanting to nuke Aizen but I don't see how this isn't a testament to how dangerous Aizen is and not just "very high ap needed." Aizen is extremely intelligent and nuking is an effective counter to KS in case he isn't seeing the real him. Nuking makes sense. Yama also doubted Aizen being able to cut him.

Also shikai Yama = Base Aizen is silly because it's implying base Yama is inferior to base Aizen and Kisuke. Shikai yama is Yama plus the ap added by Ryujin jakka the arguably strongest Ap amp Zanpakuto besides TZ and Nozarashi. There is too much wrong in the op imo

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I guess part of me is a little uneasy about assigning any kind of value to his eyepatch amp due to the SAFWY statement that his new eyepatch consumes 10x the spiritual energy of the old one, which definitely has weird implications for his pre-timeskip scaling when we start throwing numbers around for his post-timeskip eyepatch.
In the same scan that has the statement, though, Mayuri seems to say that the amount it consumes can be adjusted quite a bit, so that likely solves the problem.

Note how I'm not even giving him an eyepatch multiplier tho, the values he scales to, he scales to them based upon calcs and upscaling like that

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Do I really give Raven the time of day?
It is what it is, I guess

Disagree because Byakuya and renji bit and fb Ichigo isn't above Aizen. FB Ichigo is nowhere near Yhwach he was surpressed against him and Stomped him immediately when he got serious

Kisuke ~ Base Aizen ~ Yama ~ 75% of Yhwach's power < Real Yhwach
and Kisuke decisively < FBB Ichigo, even with his hypothetical strongest attacks.
real Yhwach is conservatively only around 1.33x that base Aizen and Yama tier, while FBB Ichigo is decisively above it.
We're talking about very slight gaps, less than even 1.5x here, so it's not farfetched at all that FBB Ichigo scales to the real Yhwach. Especially considering how he damaged an on-guard Yhwach, you can't really claim that Yhwach secretly has this power far above FBB Ichigo.

Actually the whole friends you can fight with your hearts content thing has nothing to do with scaling

That's not what he says, so at least get it right if you actually wanna comment and have a productive discussion.

The Byakuya and Renji explanation you gave is kinda weaving around the issue.

Not really, it properly adresses why they don't end up at that level, and it's not important anyways.

Also Aizen = Yama doesn't support the narrative he created wonder weiss because his shikai is too much

Him being cautious doesn't mean Aizen can't be ~ Yama.

Aizen had to wait out a fire wall created by Ryujin Jakka shikai.

Aizen chose to for unknown reasons

Also shikai Yama = Base Aizen is silly because it's implying base Yama is inferior to base Aizen and Kisuke. Shikai yama is Yama plus the ap added by Ryujin jakka the arguably strongest Ap amp Zanpakuto besides TS, and Nozarashi. There is too much wrong in the op imo

Can you prove this? Also Ryujin Jakka can create attacks undoubtedly stronger than Yama and Aizen, yes, but that's not normally what he's attacking with. His average fire slash =/= Ennetsu Jigoku, a f&$**ng giant fire pillar, which btw he feels like he needs to use to kill both himself AND Aizen at the same time to make sure he kills Aizen.

 

[TheLav69]

Note how I'm not even giving him an eyepatch multiplier tho, the values he scales to, he scales to them based upon calcs and upscaling like that

Right, I know that the eyepatch isn't being given a multiplier, I was referring to a flat, linear amp. Going from 14 Exatons to 133 Exatons via the eyepatch is an amp of 119 Exatons. If this eyepatch consumes 10x more than the old eyepatch, then that would mean that his old eyepatch would be consuming 11.9 Exatons, which obviously doesn't work since giving that level of an amp to a version of Kenpachi that's thousands of times weaker would result in huge discrepancies.

That was my original line of thinking, but given that, as I've pointed out a couple times, Mayuri says that the eyepatch can be adjusted to consume more spiritual energy, so we suddenly can't assume that it's always consuming 10x the energy of the old one. So now the old eyepatch is unquantifiable again, and that cleans up the main problem I had with the CRT.

I do agree that him scaling to FBB Ichigo and Yhwach should be on his profile in some form, I was just iffy on using the eyepatch to do it, that's all. I still kind of am, but much less than before, so now I'm more or less in agreement with everything.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Do I really give Raven the time of day?
It is what it is, I guess

I'm having a serious discussion so yea

Kisuke ~ Base Aizen ~ Yama ~ 75% of Yhwach's power < Real Yhwach

Kisuke ~ Base Aizen < Base Yama. There is no proof Aizen scales to even base Yama

That's not what he says, so at least get it right if you actually wanna comment and have a productive discussion.

The statement shouldn't be used at all because you pick and choose which parts of it were legit even though from scaling perspective the statement is wrong. Remember Gremmy? Yea Kenpachi needed Shikai against that guy, whom is inferior to Yhwach ap wise.

Not really, it properly adresses why they don't end up at that level, and it's not important anyways.

What it really did was, this statement is legit if you take these wrong parts out.

Him being cautious doesn't mean Aizen can't be ~ Yama.


Aizen chose to for unknown reasons

Not really an argument

Can you prove this? Also Ryujin Jakka can create attacks undoubtedly stronger than Yama and Aizen, yes, but that's not normally what he's attacking with. His average fire slash =/= Ennetsu Jigoku, a f&$**ng giant fire pillar, which btw he feels like he needs to use to kill both himself AND Aizen at the same time to make sure he kills Aizen.

Because a Shinigami using their Shikai is superior to themselves not using it because it's additive to their base Yama wants to guarantee death. Overkill him because Aizen is so dangerous he is worth it. He is worth nuking. I would nuke him too

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Yama was confident he could beat Aizen with his bare fists

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Unohana's durability should downscale from Kid Kenpachi's AP since the cut with all his strength was only enough to leave a scar

This. So more proof Unohana is stronger than Aizen

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Kisuke ~ Base Aizen < Base Yama. There is no proof Aizen scales to even base Yama

Nope we accept that Aizen is relative to Shikai Yama.

The statement shouldn't be used at all because you pick and choose which parts of it were legit even though from scaling perspective the statement is wrong. Remember Gremmy? Yea Kenpachi needed Shikai against that guy, whom is inferior to Yhwach ap wise.

If you read the OP you'd see that the scale inherently has NO EYEPATCH Zaraki above Shikai Zaraki with the EYEPATCH. Since the eyepatch is a nerf, it is not a contradiction for EYEPATCH Shikai Zaraki to be weaker than NO EYEPATCH Zaraki.

Also, please refrain from arguing things unrelated to the OP. If you have an issue with Aizen ~ Yama scaling make a separate CRT about it. We don't need you to derail this thread.

@TheLav69 that stuff you mentioned about the eyepatch doesn't work because you predicate it based on fan calc values. You cannot use them to "quantify" an eyepatch multiplier/amp, that isn't allowed by our standards.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Alright I'll do so in future

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

"LOL" ~ Nierre

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

I mean I can't do it right away would be seen as spite and probably a rule violation. So in future I'll debunk those things so idk why it's funny

 

[Aernasilver]

lol

 

[TheLav69]

that stuff you mentioned about the eyepatch doesn't work because you predicate it based on fan calc values. You cannot use them to "quantify" an eyepatch multiplier/amp, that isn't allowed by our standards.

Respect

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Alright I'll do so in future

We’ll easily refute any goofy thread you’d make like we did on Unohana Vs Yamamoto

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

I never lost that it's just everyone agrees to the same thing. By that same circle of people. I don't wanna list the circle but it exists now stop derailing after I already conceded unnecessary provocation guacamole guy

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Aight can y'all take the bickering elsewhere.

 

[Nierre]

Actually the whole friends you can fight with your hearts content thing has nothing to do with scaling. Remotely. The Byakuya and Renji explanation you gave is kinda weaving around the issue.

i agree honestly

Overall I'm neutral

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I will address Raven’s arguments tomorrow when I have energy.

 

[Adam1396]

Eyepatch removal being at least 10x multiplier is understandable, it also narratively seems greater than shikai amp.
We are scaling zaraki higher than royd based on unohana's statement that he lost due to limiter, otherwise could have won. But she also stated she is stronger than anyone but zaraki.
And what's the basis for assuming unohana is 10x weaker than base no eyepatch zaraki? Such massive gap was never implied. Unohana negged zaraki more effortlessly and that zaraki should be stronger after getting royd's beating.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Unohana was weakening herself by constantly kido healing and she accepted his blade at the end. This is consistent with her being relative to kid Zaraki in past without a Bankai and before he limited himself.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Unohana scales to this and if you don't think constantly healing dying targets to all the way healthy doesn't affect your reiatsu then that's just ignoring how bleach works.

Consistent with Unohana saying only HE is stronger than her. Now it's not just for show if Kenpachi is stronger than everyone himself. And she says only he is stronger. The only thing preventing herself a scale is losing even tho she literally accepted his blade and she healed him an unknown number of times likely consisting of dozens of not hundreds of times.

Bankai Unohana shouldn't be weaker than base Unohana especially since he only limited himself at the end before that they were relative