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Bleach God Tier Slight Speed Revision
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
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Literally all Reaction calcs work this way with the Reaction table, Arc's Reaction calculation for Candice is accurate based on how we calculated the results of the Reaction table and how those results were found. I just don't see how this is any different from any of the countless Reaction blitz calcs.
We know Candice can react to lightning, so blitzing her is blitzing lightning
I didn't mean to insinuate anything against you personally Damage, it's just that I don't see how this particular feat contradicts the standards we've always used?
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You're missing a piece from the "don't use 1 meter" bit. It says: "Do not randomly assume a 1 meter distance for each timeframe and use that speed for the reaction speed." This is about determining speed from a reaction timeframe, not using a stated in-verse speed to determine a reaction timeframe. And the fact that using 1 / [the given speed] is how the reaction timeframes are determined, Arc is quite literally doing the same thing the Reactions page is doing. There should be no issue with that.
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He's not, but he's more experienced with it than us and he's been clarifying it to me.
Okay, I appreciate you're not trying to insinuate anything but comments like "Because it's an upgrade for Bleach character, it is a problem?" are demeaning. It makes me wonder why should I get involved in a CRT at all if my posts are percieved as some attack on the verse?
But anyway, as for contradicting the standards we've always used... I don't think I am. We had a thread concerning character's flight speed and reaction speed here. It's nowhere near as simple as just doing 1 meter / speed of the character.
I didn't miss that, I drew a comparison to that.
The table is just for establishing the tiers. If you have a perception time value of X than it is "this tier" based on that table. It does not mean "if you're this speed, your perception speed is this fast." Nowhere does it say that in our instructions.
EDIT: I've asked DontTalk to leave another comment here since it has been a while since his first one.
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He blatantly stated falsehoods about the context in Bleach. He’s not an infallible dude. Saying “DT says this therefore I’m right” is not at all an argument.
These characters aren’t traveling in a vacuum they’re moving in more complex environments, it’s not a case where they can close their eyes and travel in a straight line. Furthermore, Candice’s speed statements are combat speeds. Idk why you’re bringing up travel speed.
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That's not my argument. I brought that up more as a "I'm not alone in thinking something is up here, and this isn't a product of Bleach bias because here's this unbiased person commenting."
I'm bringing it up because it's not as simple a 1 meter / character's speed. Our instructions don't specify that, and if we're going to go that way then the Reactions page needs updating to clarify it. If it is wrong to go that way, then I think the Reactions page needs updating either way to specify it and make sure this mistake doesn't happen again (if it is a mistake).
I get where you're coming from for your arguments, but I don't think it is supported by our current guidelines.
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- #167
Gotcha. To that same degree I have more unbiased people not taking an issue with it. I don’t agree that “vote numbers” inherently dictate who’s right or wrong, so I don’t see the point in bringing up that there are other people in the world who disagree or agree or whatever.
If you have issues for how reaction times are calculated from the reaction page, then address that in a reaction page revision. However, the reaction page as it is written right now, calculates times by 1 m / given speed. That is what’s used across site in other calculations when given a stated combat speed.
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Well good luck updating the reaction pages and changing majority of the profiles
Since it seems you are the only one with a problem on how the reaction speed is calced
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Dude, I don't think this affects the majority of profiles, nowhere even close.Well good luck updating the reaction pages and changing majority of the profiles
Since it seems you are the only one with a problem on how the reaction speed is calced
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Even as that may be,its still a lot of work.Changing quite a number of speed calcs for characters
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- #171
I wanna clarify I’m not saying you can’t have an issue with how the reaction page calculates reaction times, but as of this moment I am well within the lines of our page standards. As such until the reaction page removes/changes how the time table is calculated, there isn’t room to argue about it as it pertains to the subject of this thread.
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I get what you mean, and I agree, but look at it from the perspective of the Devil's Advocate. If I was completely alone on this, there's a good chance this would already have been closed. I'm not bringing up DT to say that "I'm right" but to say that this is an important discussion.
Well, part of the problem is that I don't think that how it is written now fully supports that. But we'll try to get this sorted out. Honestly I haven't seen this come up often before, otherwise this definitely would have been covered in a prior CRT.
Well, I don't agree but okay.
I understand your position on that, I just don't agree with what you're saying there.
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Right well I can say with 100% confidence that the values from our reaction page table comes from 1 m / the given speeds from our speed table, I did the math to confirm it. It is a unique topic yes, but again as I am currently proceeding with the same method used in the reaction times table, I ask that we move on from now. By all means though addressing the reaction table time values is certainly something to be done/can be done. This just isn’t the thread for updating/changing page standards.
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I mean worse case scenario, can't we just use baseline Masssively Hypersonic+ Reactions from the Reactions Table?
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- #175
No, we have a stated combat speed to find reaction times, I’d prefer to use author statements over arbitrary assumptions.
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The math is not the part I disagree with.
That section is titled: "Reaction Tiers for Reaction Timeframes Only".
It lists different reaction timeframes/perception speeds, and it gives you what tier they should be marked as.
For example if your calc results in a 0.00059 s timeframe, you would mark it down as "Hypersonic perception" because that's what the table says.
It does not say "If you're X fast, you divide 1 meter by X speed and that is your perception speed."
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And the reason it says to you have Hypersonic perception based on a 0.00059s time frame is because 1 m / 0.00059 s is baseline Hypersonic.
Even when stepping back to ask if the 1 m assumption makes sense, you ask yourself “is it reasonable that Grimmjow couldn’t move 1 meter in the time it took Hikone to blitz him”. Then you look at the information given, “Hikone blitzed everyone before they could react at all”. So yes, even ignoring the fact that I’m proceeding just like the reaction table times were calculated, it still makes sense. It’s quite literally the same as assuming “instantaneously” means a ~1s timeframe.
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With the updated Candice calc, and after seeing through the replies to my problems with the lightning speed statements, I will reaffirm my support for the revision.
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Thank you for the constructive criticism and participation.
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Sorry for not responding to the updated Candice calc yet. I want to get to that one when I can but felt it was more important to respond to the Hikone calc first.
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Another W for Bleach from Arc7Kuroi
Btw this is the best discussion I have ever been on a Bleach revision thread. Props for that.
Btw this is the best discussion I have ever been on a Bleach revision thread. Props for that.
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No rush, going one by one is better anyhow. Keeps things concise and easy to follow, I appreciate not shotgunning me.
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Just so this isn't forgotten, I have DM'd @DontTalkDT and asked him to comment again on the perception time topic.
If there's no post for that later today, I'll summarize my perspective on the Candice calc so that the discussion doesn't stop / isn't delayed too long.
If there's no post for that later today, I'll summarize my perspective on the Candice calc so that the discussion doesn't stop / isn't delayed too long.
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There's no need to bump. This thread hasn't been forgotten about (and it's been less than 24 hours since last post). Will be posting later.
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Okay, so to give my thoughts on the True Shikai Ichigo movement speed calc, I'll try to break down the root of the issues I have with it and describe the calc as I understand it. Apologies if I have misinterpreted anything.
This is the nature of the feat as I understand it from the calc:
This is the justifications for the premise of the feat:
I am not convinced by the justifications for the premise of this feat. The two core reasons given for why both of these events had to take place in the exact same timeframe is:
1) we see the speed lines still on the page indicating motion
2) Candice had been watching Ichigo since he hit the clock tower
To address each of them:
"We see the speed lines still on the page indicating motion."
Those lines aren't necessarily just for high-speed movement but can just be for emphasis in the panel. It's an artistic flair and we can see it crop up on panels where the character is standing still like with this page for Rukia in the same chapter.
Most often they do crop up for panels with motion but in this case I don't think that it is proof that Ichigo was executing his high-speed movement in the same timeframe as Candice's eyes widening.
There's also the matter of the speed lines not being on Ichigo himself but around the panel's edge. As far as Ichigo himself is concerned he has no significant speed lines on him and we can see gentler motion lines near him (highlighted in red here) which indicate to me that Ichigo (in this panel at least) is simply walking. I'm not going to say this is objectively true because we're just interpreting the artwork in the manga here, but my interpretation is that Ichigo had already completed his movement here so we can't say concretely that his movement was taking place at the same time as Candice's eye movement.
"Candice had been watching Ichigo since he hit the clock tower."
Candice wasn't. She was looking in that direction, but not specifically at Ichigo.
When Ichigo crash-landed, he appears to land behind some buildings which directly block Candice's vision on him (highlighted in red here). Candice, looking over in the direction of Ichigo crash-landing, wasn't able to identify Ichigo from that distance as he was coming down and she wasn't watching him at the moment he started moving towards them.
Since Candice isn't seeing Ichigo at the moment he began traversing that distance, we don't have a good reason to think that her eyelid started moving at the exact same time that he did, or if she even saw him at all.
Why would Candice's eyes widen if she didn't see Ichigo moving towards them? One plausible explanation is that she and the other Sternritter girls were reacting to Ichigo speaking in this panel and weren't reacting to his movement at all. I can see an objection to this being "Their eyes were already widened before Ichigo started speaking" and unfortunately there is no way of knowing that for sure. A panel isn't just a still moment in the story, they are sections of a story themselves otherwise Ichigo wouldn't be able to say his lines in a 0 second instantaneous timeframe anyway.
Anyway, the tl;dr of what I'm getting at is that there is no solid proof that Candice percieved Ichigo racing towards them and widened her eyes in response to that, when it is equally possible that Ichigo simply blitzed past all four of them and they reacted to him appearing behind them. Candice even questions when did he get behind them, suggesting to me that Ichigo was travelling faster-than-eyesight (as characters do countless times in this manga) and she didn't react to him, making the timeframe of the calc unreliable, and therefore Ichigo's speed unreliable.
EDIT;
Just want to add on a little extra; I can understand if anyone thinks that I'm taking an overly critical look at this feat and judging it harshly compared to other speed calcing feats of characters dodging attacks within a certain timeline but I think there's a difference between this one and most others.
When calcing a character's speed in how quickly they're able to dodge something, there is an inherent proof for the feat to be necessary within that timeframe. It's a bit self-evident. If somebody is dodging a bullet, then we know that they cross X distance before the bullet hit them, otherwise the bullet would obviously have hit them. That kind of inherent proof is missing here for this calc for Ichigo, which is why I may appear to be overly critical of it. I hope that helps in explaining why I don't think this is a valid speed calc for Ichigo.
This is the nature of the feat as I understand it from the calc:
This is the justifications for the premise of the feat:
I am not convinced by the justifications for the premise of this feat. The two core reasons given for why both of these events had to take place in the exact same timeframe is:
1) we see the speed lines still on the page indicating motion
2) Candice had been watching Ichigo since he hit the clock tower
To address each of them:
"We see the speed lines still on the page indicating motion."
Those lines aren't necessarily just for high-speed movement but can just be for emphasis in the panel. It's an artistic flair and we can see it crop up on panels where the character is standing still like with this page for Rukia in the same chapter.
Most often they do crop up for panels with motion but in this case I don't think that it is proof that Ichigo was executing his high-speed movement in the same timeframe as Candice's eyes widening.
There's also the matter of the speed lines not being on Ichigo himself but around the panel's edge. As far as Ichigo himself is concerned he has no significant speed lines on him and we can see gentler motion lines near him (highlighted in red here) which indicate to me that Ichigo (in this panel at least) is simply walking. I'm not going to say this is objectively true because we're just interpreting the artwork in the manga here, but my interpretation is that Ichigo had already completed his movement here so we can't say concretely that his movement was taking place at the same time as Candice's eye movement.
"Candice had been watching Ichigo since he hit the clock tower."
Candice wasn't. She was looking in that direction, but not specifically at Ichigo.
When Ichigo crash-landed, he appears to land behind some buildings which directly block Candice's vision on him (highlighted in red here). Candice, looking over in the direction of Ichigo crash-landing, wasn't able to identify Ichigo from that distance as he was coming down and she wasn't watching him at the moment he started moving towards them.
Since Candice isn't seeing Ichigo at the moment he began traversing that distance, we don't have a good reason to think that her eyelid started moving at the exact same time that he did, or if she even saw him at all.
Why would Candice's eyes widen if she didn't see Ichigo moving towards them? One plausible explanation is that she and the other Sternritter girls were reacting to Ichigo speaking in this panel and weren't reacting to his movement at all. I can see an objection to this being "Their eyes were already widened before Ichigo started speaking" and unfortunately there is no way of knowing that for sure. A panel isn't just a still moment in the story, they are sections of a story themselves otherwise Ichigo wouldn't be able to say his lines in a 0 second instantaneous timeframe anyway.
Anyway, the tl;dr of what I'm getting at is that there is no solid proof that Candice percieved Ichigo racing towards them and widened her eyes in response to that, when it is equally possible that Ichigo simply blitzed past all four of them and they reacted to him appearing behind them. Candice even questions when did he get behind them, suggesting to me that Ichigo was travelling faster-than-eyesight (as characters do countless times in this manga) and she didn't react to him, making the timeframe of the calc unreliable, and therefore Ichigo's speed unreliable.
EDIT;
Just want to add on a little extra; I can understand if anyone thinks that I'm taking an overly critical look at this feat and judging it harshly compared to other speed calcing feats of characters dodging attacks within a certain timeline but I think there's a difference between this one and most others.
When calcing a character's speed in how quickly they're able to dodge something, there is an inherent proof for the feat to be necessary within that timeframe. It's a bit self-evident. If somebody is dodging a bullet, then we know that they cross X distance before the bullet hit them, otherwise the bullet would obviously have hit them. That kind of inherent proof is missing here for this calc for Ichigo, which is why I may appear to be overly critical of it. I hope that helps in explaining why I don't think this is a valid speed calc for Ichigo.
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No rush at all of course. I had to take a long time to gather my thoughts on this in a way that hopefully makes sense, haha.I’ll respond in a few hours
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Eey no worries Arc,appreciate you even making this crt and being active for majority of time, take as long as you need this isnt going anywhere no worriesI may be unable to get to this until tomorrow, to which, my apologies, but that’s just the low down so y’all ain’t in the dark
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No worries. I wouldn't be able to make another post either until tomorrow anyway.I may be unable to get to this until tomorrow, to which, my apologies, but that’s just the low down so y’all ain’t in the dark
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No problem. I added on a tiny bit more to the end.
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No in that link you sent, the lines by Rukia represent a quick pan upwards to Ichigo soaring to Seireitei. Hence why they're vertically aligned.
I agree with the first part of this sentence. As for the second part, considering the emphasis of this scene is "Ichigo's so fast the Sternritter can't even perceive him", I'd reckon they're speed lines.
The speed lines are actually centered and aligned such that Ichigo is directly in the center, i.e. they are his speed lines. Under the interpretation that Ichigo made it all the way there prior to Candice opening her eyes would mean Ichigo moved even faster, because he would be crossing that distance before Candice could open her eyes that wide.
Couple things wrong with this: A) for this interpretation to hold it would have to assume that Ichigo stealthily maneuvered his way behind the Femritters whilst staying hidden behind buildings the entire time and B) it ignores the speed lines indicating where Ichigo's direction of motion came from. That direction being a straight line to the Femritters, which wouldn't have Ichigo behind the building for any significant period of the journey at all.
I disagree with this considering the speed lines are still on the panel. Which indicate fresh movement, rather, the panel flows as Ichigo talking afterwards. Aka Ichigo zipped by in a time as long (or shorter) as it took Candice to open her eyes, then he speaks. However, again considering the speed lines are directly atop the Femritter centered on Ichigo himself, indicates fresh movement imo.
I think it's quite opposite and Candice being "slow" to comprehend what just happened goes perfectly in line with how insanely fast Ichigo blitzed the Femritter.
I agree with this broad assessment of calcing "blitz feats", but I believe Ichigo is within the applicable region.
Furthermore, Candice is someone stated to be able to physically move at nigh-lightning speeds, and we see she is able to react at said speeds. That would inherently mean that her nerve signals would be traveling throughout her body at similar speeds, else Candice wouldn't be able to perceive or function at the speeds she moves. Meaning even disregarding the eyelid motion, since Ichigo is traversing in front of the Femritters (which includes Candice), he would have to travel past Candice faster than her optical nerves can send a signal to her brain for it to be such a case where Ichigo moves faster than she can see. The path between the optic nerves and the brain is extremely short (her eyes are in her head after all), so even under the assumption that Ichigo traversed that distance before her nerves could send the signal to her brain to process Ichigo blitzed her, would net similar results of Ichigo traversing the ang-sized distance before nigh-lighting speeds could traverse an immensely tiny distance.
Edit: The frequency at which I am able to be active in this thread are about to take a pretty big hit over these next two weeks, that being said, I'll be sure to pop in at least once every day or so. This way the thread doesn't get lost to time.
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It seems equally applicable that the lines centered on Ichigo could be present in that panel because it is a "quick zoom-in" like how the Rukia panel is a "quick pan upwards." It seems impossible to me to prove that those lines are present solely because of Ichigo's speed and not just because of emphasis. Given the amount of interpretation we have to work with here, I prefer to err on the side of caution.
a) It doesn't require Ichigo to stay hidden behind the buildings the entire time. It just shows that Candice didn't see him when he started moving. Where Ichigo went after that is a bit unknown given that Ichigo's travel wasn't depicted.
b) As I mentioned, I don't think those speed lines are for Ichigo specifically. I don't think they necessarily indicate that he went straight through the middle of them either.
As I mentioned, those lines are necessarily for speed. Those could purely be for emphasis. Ichigo's gentler motion lines next to him which I highlighted indicate "walking speed" to me. The lines around the edge are emphasis on Ichigo suddenly appearing behind them, not him and Candice's eyelids moving at the same time.
Oh, I agree that's "slow" here. Ichigo most definitely blitzed her and the others, as characters with Shunpo often do to each other in the manga. But I don't think that proves that her widening her eyes and Ichigo travelling the entire distance happened in the same timeframe.
That's bit that is essential to "prove" here. Ichigo blitzed her? I can accept that. Candice was slow to react? Sure, reasonable.
Candice's eyelid started moving at the same time as Ichigo, and completed moving at the same time Ichigo arrived behind Candice... why? I mean, this is a exceedingly generous reach for this feat to be "calcable."
The problem with that is the assumption that Candice percieved Ichigo at all to begin with which there is no way of really knowing. Characters have been faster-than-eyesight to each other plenty of times in the manga without being hundreds or thousands of times faster than each other.
I can understand wanting to calc Ichigo's speed in any way possible, but the number of assumptions for this calc to take place are too much of a reach for me.
No problem. DontTalk has told me that he won't be able to comment this week most likely. My own posting frequency will be quite limited too. Better to take this thread slowly.
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I can see your point here regarding the lines not being speed lines. However, I remain convinced they more so are speed lines because A) the scene is depicting Ichigo's feat and B) the perspective between pre and post blitz doesn't change (the POV of the panels are practically the same) aka nothing is zooming in. As for accounting for the "behind buildings" path of his travel, I could model his path with the hypotenuse of travel, and find how much of that length is obscured by buildings. Although I don't think that'll change the distance Ichigo moved too much considering I found the distance of a straight line parallel to the ground (the base of the triangle), wherein Ichigo traversed the hypotenuse of the triangle.
The difference here is Ichigo moved faster than she could perceive from such a far distance. And since we have speed statements for Candice and ways of finding distances we can quantify. I can include a more "perceptions" based end since the length of the optic nerves is something that is known (about 0.04 m), which would lower the results of the calc for a safer end.
If we can't reach a satisfactory conclusion/comprise on this rendition of the Candice calc, I have one more method, which may be more appealing to you given the issues you have with the calc. Although I may not get around to testing it until the next weekend sadly, these next 2 weeks are the finals grind weeks.
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That might be best. We're in no rush to do this revisions for the God Tiers so please take your time with it, I can be patient. It looks like my issue with the other calc has been addressed in that Calc Group thread so discussion doesn't have to be totally over.
(I'm also happy to temp-lock this thread for you until this other method is ready so we can stop people pointlessly posting "bump" while we wait.)
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