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Bleach God Tier Slight Speed Revision

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CloverDragon03 said:
The reactions are determined by taking 1 / the speed. Try the speed of light reactions, for instance. 1 / 299792458 will get you the same SoL reaction time you see on the page

It’s the exact same methodology as in the Candice calc, except that initial step is actually shown. That’s why it shouldn’t be calc stacking
Click to expand...
That is how the perception speed ratings were made, true, but that doesn't translate to calcing individual characters perception speed. The 1 meter in this calc for Candice (and it is a calc) is coming out of nowhere.
 
Damage3245 said:
The 1 meter in this calc for Candice (and it is a calc) is coming out of nowhere.
Click to expand...
It isn't coming out of nowhere, for light speed perceptions we use 1 m / speed of light, 1 m is an arbitrary accepted value, I did the same here but replace light with lightning.
 
Damage3245 said:
That is how the perception speed ratings were made, true, but that doesn't translate to calcing individual characters perception speed. The 1 meter in this calc for Candice (and it is a calc) is coming out of nowhere.
Click to expand...
Candice is canonically lightning speed. Her reaction time is derived from a canon statement in the same way that a reaction time is pulled from the Reactions page. It’s the same methodology.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
It isn't coming out of nowhere, for light speed perceptions we use 1 m / speed of light, 1 m is an arbitrary accepted value, I did the same here but replace light with lightning.
Click to expand...
No it isn't. No official page states that value so it isn't officially accepted for general use. When in doubt, both calcs can be wrong.

I mean, really, the entire scaling form character stats thing is always dubious. For a technique that turns you into real-life lightning to be always lightning speed is one thing. It's a technique, so it makes sense for it to always have the same speed. But otherwise characters don't make consistent use of their stats. A character stated to be supersonic isn't moving supersonic 100% of the time. Similarly, reactions of characters aren't constant. If characters, like in this case, get surprised by something they of course react slower.

The calc in question here doesn't even qualify for overcoming perception. To quote: "Witnessing these movements, which could be described as beautiful, most of those present weren't able to respond immediately."
It literally said they could in fact perceive the movements, which would mean they weren't below their perception time.

Anyways, what the more general case is concerned ask yourself this: What does "lightning speed reactions" or "lightspeed reactions" mean? Like, assuming the fictions actually stated that in particular. We might have our definition of what that means, but that is a vsbattles terms. It obviously doesn't apply to authors. That's the difference to something like a lightning speed statement. Lightning is a real-life thing with a real-life speed. That term is unambiguous. The same doesn't go for the reactions statements, as they have no universal definition. An author might have a different idea of which timeframe it should refer to (or if it even refers to a timeframe and not something like a speed value).
Other option is to say: "Well, they have lightning speed and can manoeuvre, so they need lightning perception".
The reasoning isn't wrong, but it is a calc. It is basically the same as this theoretical case from the calc stacking page:
This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.
Click to expand...
One could say the character has "bullet dodging speed", but to determine what that actually means in numbers a calculation would be needed.
If you want to get a perception timeframe from a character manoeuvring at x speed, you need to see a case of them doing so and find a fitting distance to use.
We had a thread some time ago about reactions of characters flying through space, for example, were we determined that their perception time is at times much lower than their speed due to the massive distances involved in space travel.
In short: We usually skip the calculation for the perception time of a character as it's clear they can react at their combat speed, but if you want to use a particular number a calculation is necessary.
 
DontTalkDT said:
No it isn't. No official page states that value so it isn't officially accepted for general use. When in doubt, both calcs can be wrong.

I mean, really, the entire scaling form character stats thing is always dubious. For a technique that turns you into real-life lightning to be always lightning speed is one thing. It's a technique, so it makes sense for it to always have the same speed. But otherwise characters don't make consistent use of their stats. A character stated to be supersonic isn't moving supersonic 100% of the time. Similarly, reactions of characters aren't constant. If characters, like in this case, get surprised by something they of course react slower.
Click to expand...
I heavily disagree, this kind of logic would imply nuking literally every stated character speed used in calculations, as well as all scaling to other character's statistics. If an author states character X has speed Y, then unless we are given reason to assume otherwise, we assume they have speed Y. The author's statement on a character's statistics > your headcanon.

DontTalkDT said:
The calc in question here doesn't even qualify for overcoming perception. To quote: "Witnessing these movements, which could be described as beautiful, most of those present weren't able to respond immediately."
It literally said they could in fact perceive the movements, which would mean they weren't below their perception time.
Click to expand...
You're taking quotes out of context from a novel I'm not sure you've read. The narrator describing Hikone move =/= every saw the details of Hikone's movement. In fact it is stated verbatim no one could react to his speed, and the only character who could did it via predicted where Hikone would move. The truth of the matter is Hikone vastly blitzed their reactions, hence I calc'd that.

DontTalkDT said:
Anyways, what the more general case is concerned ask yourself this: What does "lightning speed reactions" or "lightspeed reactions" mean? Like, assuming the fictions actually stated that in particular. We might have our definition of what that means, but that is a vsbattles terms. It obviously doesn't apply to authors. That's the difference to something like a lightning speed statement. Lightning is a real-life thing with a real-life speed. That term is unambiguous. The same doesn't go for the reactions statements, as they have no universal definition. An author might have a different idea of which timeframe it should refer to (or if it even refers to a timeframe and not something like a speed value).
Other option is to say: "Well, they have lightning speed and can manoeuvre, so they need lightning perception".
The reasoning isn't wrong, but it is a calc. It is basically the same as this theoretical case from the calc stacking page:
One could say the character has "bullet dodging speed", but to determine what that actually means in numbers a calculation would be needed.
If you want to get a perception timeframe from a character manoeuvring at x speed, you need to see a case of them doing so and find a fitting distance to use.
We had a thread some time ago about reactions of characters flying through space, for example, were we determined that their perception time is at times much lower than their speed due to the massive distances involved in space travel.
In short: We usually skip the calculation for the perception time of a character as it's clear they can react at their combat speed, but if you want to use a particular number a calculation is necessary.
Click to expand...
This is entirely a false equivalence. In this example you go from calc to calc, aka you see a character dodge a bullet, you calc it, you see some blitz that earlier character, you calc it. Which yes, that is calc stacking. However, going from statement to calc is not at all calc stacking.
 
Thank you for commenting DT. I fully agree.

This is entirely a false equivalence. In this example you go from calc to calc, aka you see a character dodge a bullet, you calc it, you see some blitz that earlier character, you calc it. Which yes, that is calc stacking. However, going from statement to calc is not at all calc stacking.
Click to expand...

You're going from statement to calc to calc. You can't really deny that you're calcing Candice's perception speed here, are you?
 
Damage3245 said:
Thank you for commenting DT. I fully agree.



You're going from statement to calc to calc. You can't really deny that you're calcing Candice's perception speed here, are you?
Click to expand...
I added an extra step to make the calc easier to understand. But as I explained earlier my calc's in essence are speed distance ratios.

A has stated speed X

B moved distance D before A could move distance R

B's speed = A's speed times the distance B moved over the distance A failed to move in the same time frame = X * D / R

Me breaking it into Candice's reaction time was to simplify the calc for layman's understanding. It's like going from 1 to 2 by adding 2 and subtracting 1 vs just adding 1.

But the calc in essense is: Ichigo/Hikone's speed = [(distance they moved in a timeframe) / (distance Candice failed to move in the same timeframe)] * Candice's stated speed
 
DontTalkDT said:
I mean, really, the entire scaling form character stats thing is always dubious. For a technique that turns you into real-life lightning to be always lightning speed is one thing. It's a technique, so it makes sense for it to always have the same speed. But otherwise characters don't make consistent use of their stats. A character stated to be supersonic isn't moving supersonic 100% of the time. Similarly, reactions of characters aren't constant. If characters, like in this case, get surprised by something they of course react slower.

Anyways, what the more general case is concerned ask yourself this: What does "lightning speed reactions" or "lightspeed reactions" mean? Like, assuming the fictions actually stated that in particular. We might have our definition of what that means, but that is a vsbattles terms. It obviously doesn't apply to authors. That's the difference to something like a lightning speed statement. Lightning is a real-life thing with a real-life speed. That term is unambiguous. The same doesn't go for the reactions statements, as they have no universal definition. An author might have a different idea of which timeframe it should refer to (or if it even refers to a timeframe and not something like a speed value).
Other option is to say: "Well, they have lightning speed and can manoeuvre, so they need lightning perception".
The reasoning isn't wrong, but it is a calc. It is basically the same as this theoretical case from the calc stacking page:

One could say the character has "bullet dodging speed", but to determine what that actually means in numbers a calculation would be needed.
If you want to get a perception timeframe from a character manoeuvring at x speed, you need to see a case of them doing so and find a fitting distance to use.
We had a thread some time ago about reactions of characters flying through space, for example, were we determined that their perception time is at times much lower than their speed due to the massive distances involved in space travel.
In short: We usually skip the calculation for the perception time of a character as it's clear they can react at their combat speed, but if you want to use a particular number a calculation is necessary.
Click to expand...
See this doesn't make sense to me. If someone is stated to be able to react and move at lightning speeds via the author themselves, we don't need to guess or assume differently about where their reactions scale. That's not a calc, that's blatantly saying what speeds they can react to. That is the speed of lightning itself. So if someone is able to blitz those reactions, then obviously they would be moving at speeds that far eclipse lightning speed. I mean this is basically true with all blitzing calculations.
 
If someone is stated to be able to react and move at lightning speeds via the author themselves
Click to expand...

The author hasn't. The character transforming themselves into lightning and moving at that speed isn't proof that their normal reaction times are always that fast.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
The reactions are determined by taking 1 / the speed. Try the speed of light reactions, for instance. 1 / 299792458 will get you the same SoL reaction time you see on the page

It’s the exact same methodology as in the Candice calc, except that initial step is actually shown. That’s why it shouldn’t be calc stacking
Click to expand...
This I agree with.
 
DontTalkDT said:
No it isn't. No official page states that value so it isn't officially accepted for general use. When in doubt, both calcs can be wrong.

I mean, really, the entire scaling form character stats thing is always dubious. For a technique that turns you into real-life lightning to be always lightning speed is one thing. It's a technique, so it makes sense for it to always have the same speed. But otherwise characters don't make consistent use of their stats. A character stated to be supersonic isn't moving supersonic 100% of the time. Similarly, reactions of characters aren't constant. If characters, like in this case, get surprised by something they of course react slower.

The calc in question here doesn't even qualify for overcoming perception. To quote: "Witnessing these movements, which could be described as beautiful, most of those present weren't able to respond immediately."
It literally said they could in fact perceive the movements, which would mean they weren't below their perception time.

Anyways, what the more general case is concerned ask yourself this: What does "lightning speed reactions" or "lightspeed reactions" mean? Like, assuming the fictions actually stated that in particular. We might have our definition of what that means, but that is a vsbattles terms. It obviously doesn't apply to authors. That's the difference to something like a lightning speed statement. Lightning is a real-life thing with a real-life speed. That term is unambiguous. The same doesn't go for the reactions statements, as they have no universal definition. An author might have a different idea of which timeframe it should refer to (or if it even refers to a timeframe and not something like a speed value).
Other option is to say: "Well, they have lightning speed and can manoeuvre, so they need lightning perception".
The reasoning isn't wrong, but it is a calc. It is basically the same as this theoretical case from the calc stacking page:

One could say the character has "bullet dodging speed", but to determine what that actually means in numbers a calculation would be needed.
If you want to get a perception timeframe from a character manoeuvring at x speed, you need to see a case of them doing so and find a fitting distance to use.
We had a thread some time ago about reactions of characters flying through space, for example, were we determined that their perception time is at times much lower than their speed due to the massive distances involved in space travel.
In short: We usually skip the calculation for the perception time of a character as it's clear they can react at their combat speed, but if you want to use a particular number a calculation is necessary.
Click to expand...
Lighting speed reaction is consistent even while their off guard. So their speed is consist weather their relaxing or fighting

For example ginjo while not on Guard could perceive and react to Candice near lighting speed arrow.

And several other characters reacted to grimmjow moving at lighting speed while their not on guard
 
Reio35 said:
Lighting speed reaction is consistent even while their off guard. So their speed is consist weather their relaxing or fighting

For example ginjo while not on Guard could perceive and react to Candice near lighting speed arrow.

And several other characters reacted to grimmjow moving at lighting speed while their not on guard
Click to expand...
Yes, but I don't think that's relevant here cuz none of my calcs involve off guard characters.
 
Okay, so @Damage3245, just so I understand where you're coming from, you and Don't Talk are saying that the problem here with at least the Candice calc and any other relying on reactions is that while we assume that she reacts at lightning speed due to her lightning attacks, this assumption of reaction shouldn't be used because it falls under the rule of thumb category where we don't calc something because there's really no further need for it. However, if we're then using this assumption (not stated fact) to create a calc, that's not allowed, because that inherently is just another form of calc stacking.

Please do let me know if I'm getting this wrong.

Now, @Arc7Kuroi, you're saying that because we have statements of Candice's reaction speed that in actuality all these calcs are fine since we're just taking statements in applying them as we would normally for any calc.

Is that right?
 
Duedate8898 said:
Now, @Arc7Kuroi, you're saying that because we have statements of Candice's reaction speed that in actuality all these calcs are fine since we're just taking statements in applying them as we would normally for any calc.
Click to expand...
Yup that very broadly sums up the pro side.
 
Last edited:
Cool, I'm going to cover that part real quick because originally, I didn't look at the calcs since I figured that best left up to calc members to determine their authenticity, however I wanted to see what these statements were. And I do have a problem with using them to support lightning speed, if these aren't the right statements or you got some that explain away what problem I'm about to bring up please do share them so I'm on the right page. But these two pages are the statements I found used in the calcs:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/863171196035661834/881332260589170788/CFYOW_C14_Attacks_at_near_lightning_speed.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...Arrows_are_slightly_slower_than_lightning.jpg

And I think both pages actually actively detract from the idea that Candice has lightning speed attacks and reaction.
In the first one, the quote I found is this:
Aiming towards where the opponent had gone off balance, Candice shot successive lightning arrows. Then, as a final blow, she drove in with an Electrocution, the same attack she had used against Ginjo and the others earlier. The surrounding area was enfulged in a blinding light by the successive strikes she had launched at near lighting speed.
Click to expand...
With it saying near lighting speed, I don't know how we could take this and use it to support lightning speed for Candice.
In the second page, I found these quotes:
Something came flying down the horizon-a flash of lightning.
To be more accurate, it was a single, extermely ruthless arrow entirely covered in high-voltage electricty.
"Hey, you freakin' serious?"
Though it was much slower than an actual lightning blot, the reishi arrowhead was quick enough that it could appropriately be said to be going at "lightning speed."
Click to expand...
"Hah. That's pretty slow for lightning. Was that supposed to be your most lethal move or something?"
Click to expand...
Here not only is it stated the bolts of lightning she shoots out aren't lightning, but arrows covered in electricity. But it's also explicitly stated that said attacks are much slower than actual lightning bolts and are just quick enough that one would call them lightning speed. This makes the statement from the previous page I posted seem even more like it can't be talking about actual lightning speed but the metaphorical one people use just to say something is going really fast.

So why exactly would we be considering Candice's attacks and reactions at lightning speed or close enough to consider this a valid means to give that speed for a calc? With statements directly contradicting the nature of her lightning, stuff like it being cloud to ground seems invalid as support as far as I can tell.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Cool, I'm going to cover that part real quick because originally, I didn't look at the calcs since I figured that best left up to calc members to determine their authenticity, however I wanted to see what these statements were. And I do have a problem with using them to support lightning speed, if these aren't the right statements or you got some that explain away what problem I'm about to bring up please do share them so I'm on the right page. But these two pages are the statements I found used in the calcs:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...CFYOW_C14_Attacks_at_near_lightning_speed.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...Arrows_are_slightly_slower_than_lightning.jpg

And I think both pages actually actively detract from the idea that Candice has lightning speed attacks and reaction.
In the first one, the quote I found is this:

With it saying near lighting speed, I don't know how we could take this and use it to support lightning speed for Candice.
In the second page, I found these quotes:


Here not only is it stated the bolts of lightning she shoots out aren't lightning, but arrows covered in electricity. But it's also explicitly stated that said attacks are much slower than actual lightning bolts and are just quick enough that one would call them lightning speed. This makes the statement from the previous page I posted seem even more like it can't be talking about actual lightning speed but the metaphorical one people use just to say something is going really fast.

So why exactly would we be considering Candice's attacks and reactions at lightning speed or close enough to consider this a valid means to give that speed for a calc? With statements directly contradicting the nature of her lightning, stuff like it being cloud to ground seems invalid as support as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...
A) Her electrocution is stated to surpass any lightning in nature and hence we accept that she has lightning speed attack speed (supported by the fact her actual lightning, not the arrows, are cloud-to-ground).
B) base Grimmjow is stated to have lightning speed movement, to which most everyone in CFYOW scales relative to that statement.
 
Cool, please get those statements for one, cause even checking Candice's profile I found no link to that Electrocution one and the Grimmjow one I found only says he maneuvers his body exactly like one of Candice's bolts, which I think is fair to assume also includes speed, but with the previous quotes I've brought up still wouldn't support lightning speed since the bolts are explicitly called out as slower than lightning.
 
Duedate8898 said:
Cool, please get those statements for one, cause even checking Candice's profile I found no link to that Electrocution one and the Grimmjow one I found only says he maneuvers his body exactly like one of Candice's bolts, which I think is fair to assume also includes speed, but with the previous quotes I've brought up still wouldn't support lightning speed since the bolts are explicitly called out as slower than lightning.
Click to expand...

Here ginjo also reacted to her cloud to ground lighting as well. Shinji to
 
Base Grimmjow moves exactly like one of Candice's bolts of lightning, which is actual cloud-to-ground lightning, and thus is lightning speed. Not to be confused with her Quincy arrows shot from her bow, which are slower than actual lightning. Then pretty much the entire relevant cast scales around base Grimmjow. Hence, the justification for lightning speed.

I've got to turn in for the night, so I won't be responding for 8-10 hours in all likelihood. Please try to keep this thread civil in the meantime lol.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Electrocution statement

Power = force * velocity
Click to expand...
Reio35 said:

Here ginjo also reacted to her cloud to ground lighting as well. Shinji to
Click to expand...

Gonna be honest, usiing these electrocution statements to support actual lightning speed seems like bit of a reach since the assumption can be made that the force exceeds normal lightning while the velocity is the same or below so it's able to have more power, the inverse, or that both force and velocity exceed normal lightnings. But, since on her profile, it is accepted, as long as no one else seems to take a problem with it I can let it go.

And Reio, that actually would definitely need a calc and in this case wouldn't be able to be used in the calcs that this thread are using.
Arc7Kuroi said:
Also her arrows are called slower than lightning. Arrows =/= bolt of lightning.
Click to expand...
However, this I can't ignore because in this page
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/863171196035661834/881331053925629952/CFYOW_C6_Arrows_are_slightly_slower_than_lightning.jpg
The very first two lines, it looks pretty clearly like her bolts of lightning are just electricity-infused arrows unless we're talking about Eletrocution, which is most clearly lined out to not be arrows. And I feel like saying that the statement about Grimmjow is talking about Electrocution and not her normal lightning attacks is a reach I can't agree with since I feel like it would make more sense to directly compare him to Electrocution since it is a special attack in that case.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Base Grimmjow moves exactly like one of Candice's bolts of lightning, which is actual cloud-to-ground lightning, and thus is lightning speed. Not to be confused with her Quincy arrows shot from her bow, which are slower than actual lightning. Then pretty much the entire relevant cast scales around base Grimmjow. Hence, the justification for lightning speed.

I've got to turn in for the night, so I won't be responding for 8-10 hours in all likelihood. Please try to keep this thread civil in the meantime lol.
Click to expand...
And I got to retire too, so I'll probably see you when you get back around.
 
Duedate8898 said:
However, this I can't ignore because in this page
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...Arrows_are_slightly_slower_than_lightning.jpg
The very first two lines, it looks pretty clearly like her bolts of lightning are just electricity-infused arrows unless we're talking about Eletrocution, which is most clearly lined out to not be arrows. And I feel like saying that the statement about Grimmjow is talking about Electrocution and not her normal lightning attacks is a reach I can't agree with since I feel like it would make more sense to directly compare him to Electrocution since it is a special attack in that case.
Click to expand...
Her arrows =/= her bolts of lightning, reread TYBW chapters 580/590ish. Her bolts of lightning are literal CTG lightning bolts, her arrows look like irl arrows.


Duedate8898 said:
And I got to retire too, so I'll probably see you when you get back around.
Click to expand...
night
 
To give Arc's argument even more credence then it currently does.

The Manga actually makes a distinction between Candice's Lighting Bolts and her Heilig Pheil's (Quincy's Arrows)

1: After Ichigo had thrown all of the Femritters into different buildings, Candice brought her Heilig Bogen and shot a Galvano Blast at Ichigo, this attack is directly stated by Liltotto to be a Heilig Pfeil

2: All of the Femritters shot Heilig Pfeil at Ichigo (Look closely at Candice's Heilig Pfeil) these attacks were once again rightfully called Heilig Pfeil's , not "bolts of lightning" which is being claimed by the opposition side of this argument.

So given this evidence it should be very clear to everyone that there's a distinction made between her lighting (which is stated to move at lightning speed, comes from CTG etc) to her Heilig Pfeil's (which are stated to move at sub-lightning speeds, to be arrows coated in electricity etc)
 
Last edited:
Part of the problem is that her attack speed being lightning speed (for Electrocution) doesn't necessarily mean her perception speed of 1 meter / average speed of lightning.

But even if that was good enough to accept for her, that is still a calced speed statistic we're assuming for Candice and we cannot use that in another calc for someone blitzing Candice.

So given this evidence it should be very clear to everyone that there's a distinction made between her lighting (which is stated to move at lightning speed, comes from CTG etc) to her Heilig Pfeil's (which are stated to move at sub-lightning speeds, to be arrows coated in electricity etc)
Click to expand...

Yup. I argued for that in the first place and got it accepted.
 
Damage3245 said:
I addressed this earlier. A character transforming themselves into lightning doesn't mean their reactions are always as fast as that. If transforming into lightning boosts her speed, it is reasonable this can extend to reaction speed as well.
Click to expand...
There would be no reason to transform into lightning to evade an attack the character could have without transforming into lightning in the first place. It selves no purpose from a story stand point which comes first from an author’s point of view than logistics. The reason the author did was to demonstrate that the speed needed to evade that attack requires lightning speeds. Author intention first before our assumptions.
 
AppleLord said:
There would be no reason to transform into lightning to evade an attack the character could have without transforming into lightning in the first place. It selves no purpose from a story stand point which comes first from an author’s point of view than logistics. The reason the author did was to demonstrate that the speed needed to evade that attack requires lightning speeds. Author intention first before our assumptions.
Click to expand...
... Okay? I don't disagree with any of that, and none of that goes against my point.
 
So basically @Damage, there’s gonna be a lot of changes to calc’s on this site because you can’t use a stated speed to find the speed of a character that blitzed them? And even if you can, it doesn’t mean the character that got blitzed has reactions fast enough that are equal to their attacks?

that’s kinda like saying a Major League pitcher throwing 100 mph pitches and a batter who can hit that pitch doesn’t mean they can perceive what they’re seeing because it’s faster than what they usually do
 
SilentBob34 said:
So basically @Damage, there’s gonna be a lot of changes to calc’s on this site because you can’t use a stated speed to find the speed of a character that blitzed them? And even if you can, it doesn’t mean the character that got blitzed has reactions fast enough that are equal to their attacks?

that’s kinda like saying a Major League pitcher throwing 100 mph pitches and a batter who can hit that pitch doesn’t mean they can perceive what they’re saying because it’s faster than what they usually do
Click to expand...

You and I have different definitions over what "stated speed" means here. We could debate it back and forth all day but if our core definitions are different we're not going to get anywhere. DontTalk and I see this as being calc stacking. Our page on calc stacking would need to be changed or reworded for this to be an acceptable scenario for calc stacking.
 
Damage3245 said:
You and I have different definitions over what "stated speed" means here. We could debate it back and forth all day but if our core definitions are different we're not going to get anywhere. DontTalk and I see this as being calc stacking. Our page on calc stacking would need to be changed or reworded for this to be an acceptable scenario for calc stacking.
Click to expand...
So many verses getting downgraded If they have similar speed calculation?
 
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