• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Bleach God Tier Slight Speed Revision

Status
Not open for further replies.
Damage3245 said:
Okay. Just to clarify I did double-check with DontTalk first about whether or not it truly classed as Calc Stacking because I wanted to make sure and he said that it was. We can have him comment on the thread if you'd like.
Click to expand...
What exactly is the calc stacking issue? Is it because we assume since Candice has lightning speed perception because she can turn into lightning and fire cloud to ground lightning bolts and then fight and react to people who can in turn react to her lightning?

Then wouldn’t your own calc of Ichigo deflecting the Sternritter’s arrows be calc stacking? All thats said it her arrows are near lightning speed so you’re assuming a speed but it’s ok because it’s your calc?
 
Chill out fellas 🗿

I’ll be a handful of hours, got some things to take care of, until then I appreciate y’all’s patience.
 
Yeah this isn’t calc stacking… Candice moves at lightning speeds and blatantly controls and reacts to her movements alongside blatantly reacting to people who are comparable to her in speed. That’s not based on a calculation, that’s based on direct info given by the story. Candice very clearly has lore based lightning speed reactions, so blitzing her is blitzing lightning speed.

As for Yhwach's Auswahlen and Dark Reiatsu. Well we know Ichigo is factually faster than people like Candice and Grimmjow, who canonically move at these speeds and we do have a given timeframe. I don't really see the calc stacking here since the distance would be based on lore given speed and timeframe, which then gives us a distance to use. It's certaintly not the most solid, but it's still within the realm of accetable in my books.
 
Yeah this isn’t calc stacking… Candice moves at lightning speeds and blatantly controls and reacts to her movements alongside blatantly reacting to people who are comparable to her in speed. That’s not based on a calculation, that’s based on direct info given by the story. Candice very clearly has lore based lightning speed reactions, so blitzing her is blitzing lightning speed.
Click to expand...

A calculation can be based on info from the story, and that figure from the beginning of the calc is derived from a calculation. But using that figure in other calculations is calc stacking.

The argument of it being based on direct info given in the story is like saying; "This character's speed is given to us by this feat of them dodging a bullet. It happened in the story, so we can calc it and use that figure for other calculations to get the speed for other characters."

@DontTalkDT Could you weigh in here? Because there is some disputing as to whether or not this classes as calc stacking.
 
Damage3245 said:
A calculation can be based on info from the story, and that figure from the beginning of the calc is derived from a calculation. But using that figure in other calculations is calc stacking.

The argument of it being based on direct info given in the story is like saying; "This character's speed is given to us by this feat of them dodging a bullet. It happened in the story, so we can calc it and use that figure for other calculations to get the speed for other characters."

@DontTalkDT Could you weigh in here? Because there is some disputing as to whether or not this classes as calc stacking.
Click to expand...
Poor argument given it’s not using a characters speed from a previous calc. It’s given directly from feats in the manga. So Ichigo dodging Gin’s Bankai and again your own Calc of Ichigo deflecting the Sternritter’s arrows is calc stacking because there’s a given speed beforehand hand right?
 
SilentBob34 said:
Poor argument given it’s not using a characters speed from a previous calc. It’s given directly from feats in the manga. So Ichigo dodging Gin’s Bankai and again your own Calc of Ichigo deflecting the Sternritter’s arrows is calc stacking because there’s a given speed beforehand hand right?
Click to expand...
No. If you don't understand why, then you may not understand exactly what Calc Stacking is.
 
Damage3245 said:
No. If you don't understand why, then you may not understand exactly what Calc Stacking is.
Click to expand...
Then please explain it? You’re saying it’s calc stacking because it’s assumed that Candice has Lightning speed perception, but it’s ok for your calc to assume her arrows are close to lightning speed because of a statement when there’s a direct statement that a character far weaker than Ichigo moves exactly like one of Candice’s lightning bolts?
 
Damage3245 said:
No. If you don't understand why, then you may not understand exactly what Calc Stacking is.
Click to expand...
Also I know what calc stacking is. If we were to take your calc of Ichigo deflecting the Sternritter’s girls arrows and apply that to another feat than I can understand. But there literally is no calc being used. Only info given to us that Candice has MHS+ perception right?
 
skippy said:
Eh the Stamina Argument aint that good Considering its said Ichigo can run on the device that drains his reiryoku for a week straight.
Click to expand...
That and a massively weaker and less-conditioned ichigo (SS arc) was able to fight old man zangetsu for 1 day without rest. There's also ichigo and renji getting bullied by the fake asauchi for three days and three nights
 
also off-topic asf but I had no idea candi could transform into a literal lightning bolt up until now lmao. Is this listed in her profile?
 
Hikone and Ichigo blitz Candice
So, it seems like one of the big issues with my calcs is that Candice's perception speed is based on an assumed calc. That is inherently false, Candice gets her reactions from statements. A scenario which is 1-to-1 with my first two Bleach calcs (Ichigo and Hikone's blitzes) is this recently accepted Fairy Tail thread.

Haku is stated to have lightspeed movement and has displayed the ability to move and react at those speeds. Other members of Haku's guild are stated equals or superior to Haku. Selene then blitzes those members, and hence has her speed calc'd from that. This calc gets the reactions from the 1 m / (stated light speed), and then it's Selene's distance moved divided by reaction time for her speed.

Candice is stated to have lightning speed movement and has displayed the ability to move and react at those speeds. Ichigo and Hikone each blitz Candice, and hence have their speed calc'd from that. Ichigo's and Hikone's calc gets the reactions from the 1 m / (stated lightning speed), and then it's their distance moved divided by reaction time for their speed.

While these calcs are broken up into two steps (reaction time -> distance moved); however, they can be simplified into a distance ratio times speed. For example in both instances for my calcs and FT's, we have a character move a certain distance before another character with a stated speed can move a separate distance. Hence, the first character's speed is equivalent to the distance they moved over the distance the other character couldn't move multiplied by that other character's speed. That is exactly how Gin/Ichigo's accepted calc is calculated.

There is no calc stacking with my Ichigo and Hikone blitz calcs, they follow standard procedure as do previous accepted blitz calcs, and standard procedure from calculating speeds from statements.

Yhwach's Darkness and Reiokyu Distance
I find the scrutinizing of me using a stated speed and stated timeframe to get the Reiokyu-Seireitei distance to then find Yhwach's darkness speed to be quite hypocritical for three reasons.

1) We use stated time frames and speeds for Seireitei's accepted size, to which we then use that size to calculate Gremmy's meteor's potency. It's not calc stacking because the basis of the size/distance calc is based on reliable statements.

2) We use the same method for Seireitei's size for Las Noches, to which we use to calculate Cero Oscuras, Lanza del Relampago, and Gran Rey Cero. It's not calc stacking because the basis of the size/distance calc is based on reliable statements.

3) We use statements to get Karakura Town's size, to which we use to calculate the theoretical destruction of the town. It's not calc stacking because the basis of the size/distance calc is based on reliable statements.

Now let's evaluate the Reiokyu-Seireitei distance calc. It uses a stated time frame (we see a literal clock) + stated travel speeds Ichigo far scales above (also similar to what Fairy Tail does with Selene's calc by saying Suzaku and the guild master have the same stated speed as Haku due to statements, i.e. fair game) to get a distance. Then said distance is used to calculate the speed at which Yhwach's attacks move. It is also not calc stacking because the basis of the size/distance calc is again based on reliable statements.

As for Ichigo maintaining that speed for such a comparatively short time for him: Ichigo can full on run for 5 days straight with a mere fraction of the spiritual pressure he has in the TYBW, Ichigo can fight Zangetsu for 2000 hours (seriously mind you we see Ichigo bleed multiple times) with again but a mere fraction of the spiritual pressure he has in TYBW, Ichigo and Renji can fight bloodlusted Asauchi for 3 days as well (it's not like it was a playful spar either), furthermore Ichigo is very clearly in a rush to get back and it makes no sense to assume he'd be traveling liesurely at a pace far slower than those he's faster than. The idea that Ichigo's travel speed is slower than Grimmjow's over the span of less than half a day, when we see this man consistently exert himself heavily over multiple days and even months is ridiculous dismissal of his actual feats.

There is no calc stacking here either, using reliable statements to form the basis of other calcs is well within the confines of our rules.
 
Damage3245 said:
A calculation can be based on info from the story, and that figure from the beginning of the calc is derived from a calculation. But using that figure in other calculations is calc stacking.

The argument of it being based on direct info given in the story is like saying; "This character's speed is given to us by this feat of them dodging a bullet. It happened in the story, so we can calc it and use that figure for other calculations to get the speed for other characters."

@DontTalkDT Could you weigh in here? Because there is some disputing as to whether or not this classes as calc stacking.
Click to expand...
Would you consider the calc to be reworked using the low-mid-high speeds accepted for lightning in VSBW instead of the Candice feat lightning calc numbers you point out? That would not be considered calc stacking in your terms.
 
AppleLord said:
Would you consider the calc to be reworked using the low-mid-high speeds accepted for lightning in VSBW instead of the Candice feat lightning calc numbers you point out? That would not be considered calc stacking in your terms.
Click to expand...
The speed of the lightning isn't the issue.
 
Haku is stated to have lightspeed movement and has displayed the ability to move and react at those speeds. Other members of Haku's guild are stated equals or superior to Haku. Selene then blitzes those members, and hence has her speed calc'd from that. This calc gets the reactions from the 1 m / (stated light speed), and then it's Selene's distance moved divided by reaction time for her speed.
Click to expand...

Candice is stated to have lightning speed movement and has displayed the ability to move and react at those speeds. Ichigo and Hikone each blitz Candice, and hence have their speed calc'd from that. Ichigo's and Hikone's calc gets the reactions from the 1 m / (stated lightning speed), and then it's their distance moved divided by reaction time for their speed.
Click to expand...

Question. Where are we getting the accepted formula for perception speed being "1 meter / x speed"?

I've looked over the Speed page and the Reactions page, and I can't find anything about it.
 
AppleLord said:
You mentioned that the issue is a number used from another calc. I'm reffering to that.
Click to expand...
There is no other calc though lol. Damage is basically saying that since we’re using a stated speed to calc a feat, it’s calc stacking. Even though one of his own feats does the same exact thing.. and forgive me for saying this, but I feel he’s ok with that because his calc produces a much lower result for what he would like
 
SilentBob34 said:
There is no other calc though lol. Damage is basically saying that since we’re using a stated speed to calc a feat, it’s calc stacking. Even though one of his own feats does the same exact thing.. and forgive me for saying this, but I feel he’s ok with that because his calc produces a much lower result for what he would like
Click to expand...
No. I am not saying you're using a stated speed to calc the feat.

Once again, you misunderstand the argument.
 
Damage3245 said:
Question. Where are we getting the accepted formula for perception speed being "1 meter / x speed"?
Click to expand...
It's a lowball assumption because technically the character's being blitzed barely move at all, but a 0 second time would lead to infinite speed. At least that's what I assume from looking around at other calcs that use this.
 
Damage3245 said:
No. I am not saying you're using a stated speed to calc the feat.

Once again, you misunderstand the argument.
Click to expand...
I’m gonna wait for you to respond to others because there’s a couple people responding to you at once lol. I get you’re bringing up a 1 meter/ x speed to bring up calc stacking, but I think that was a typo? We have a given speed for Candice and in turn characters and herself can react to that speed. You’re honestly nit picking because of a single sentence in the calc
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
It's a lowball assumption because technically the character's being blitzed barely move at all, but a 0 second time would lead to infinite speed. At least that's what I assume from looking around at other calcs that use this.
Click to expand...
It seems to me that those other calcs are likely wrong as well. I'm not particularly up for overhauling reaction calcs, but I'd like to see DT's comments on this because this does not seem right to me based on our current page for reactions.
 
Damage3245 said:
It seems to me that those other calcs are likely wrong as well. I'm not particularly up for overhauling reaction calcs, but I'd like to see DT's comments on this because this does not seem right to me based on our current page for reactions.
Click to expand...
Actually Damage, the reaction speeds in my calcs are the low-end MHS+ reactions. They line up with that table, so I assume the reactions table is made from 1 m / (speed tier), edit I just double checked and yes I am correct with that. The reactions page gets its times from 1 m / speed
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Actually Damage, the reaction speeds in my calcs are the low-end MHS+ reactions. They line up with that table, so I assume the reactions table is made from 1 m / (speed tier), edit I just double checked and yes I am correct with that. The reactions page gets its times from 1 m / speed
Click to expand...
I see. I'll do some more investigating of our reaction speed standards.
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
so given there is no calc stacking, it follows the rules/standards of the wiki and the calcs are already accepted + agreement from 6 mods

i think it should be fine to apply them
Click to expand...
Nice try for rushing the thread through but it's been open for less than 24 hours and the discussion is still very much ongoing.
 
TOAAPRESENCE1 said:
so given there is no calc stacking, it follows the rules/standards of the wiki and the calcs are already accepted + agreement from 6 mods

i think it should be fine to apply them
Click to expand...
I'm gonna give the thread some time to simmer. My rule of thumb is always let the thread remain open for at least a week, give everyone ample time to respond.
 
Damage3245 said:
Nice try for rushing the thread through but it's been open for less than 24 hours and the discussion is still very much ongoing.
Click to expand...
I’m cool with letting the thread remain open but no offense, I’m pretty sure you’ve pushed for threads to be put through in the same exact time..

also there isn’t much ongoing, it’s you literally arguing arguing the standards of the wik. Kinda sounds like a whole other thread for that
 
There's nothing wrong with eagerness to get this accepted or a want to let it be thoroughly checked first. Let's all remain professional and nice to each other here, cuz I'm not going to close this thread before a week ends at the earliest anyhow.
 
Damage3245 said:
Question. Where are we getting the accepted formula for perception speed being "1 meter / x speed"?

I've looked over the Speed page and the Reactions page, and I can't find anything about it.
Click to expand...
The reactions are determined by taking 1 / the speed. Try the speed of light reactions, for instance. 1 / 299792458 will get you the same SoL reaction time you see on the page

It’s the exact same methodology as in the Candice calc, except that initial step is actually shown. That’s why it shouldn’t be calc stacking
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Bastolan27
  • Locked
Ginjo and Yhwach: The Power-Stealing Hybrids
Replies
38
Views
4K
Arc7Kuroi
Arc7Kuroi
ReaperAndBlues
Was Unohana Right? Let's Find Out. (GRACE)
Replies
32
Views
3K
ReaperAndBlues
ReaperAndBlues
ReaperAndBlues
  • Locked
Simple Additions For Pre-timeskip and Post-timeskip Ichigo
Replies
18
Views
2K
ReaperAndBlues
ReaperAndBlues
BasedNecoScaler69
  • Locked
Fullbring/ Dangai equalization
2 3
Replies
114
Views
8K
Excellence616
Excellence616
DavidTPPM
GoH - mid-high tier speed value update
Replies
16
Views
798
DavidTPPM
DavidTPPM
Back
Top