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Neither does Issho tbh, except from Sabo Scaling.
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Black Leg Sanji vs the Flame Emperor
- Thread starter DaMonkeMan
- Start date
DaMonkeMan
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- #82
Bruh
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"Issho doesnt scale off of Zoan Sengoku" isn't a crazy statement.
DaMonkeMan
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Ugh.
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They could 100% be relative, but Fujitora essentially just scales to "i am admiral"
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Bumping this.
Sanji has superior Buso Haki, AP, Durability, Endurance, Speed, IQ and BIQ, Skill, Heat resistance, Heat, and Stamina, Regeneration, and Kenbun Haki
Sabo has superior Range and Mobility
Sabo's range doesn't matter due to Sanji having heat resistance and durability good enough to tank his hits.
Sabo's mobility is pretty helpful, but Sanji can also fly with Sky Walk.
Voting Sanji
Sanji has superior Buso Haki, AP, Durability, Endurance, Speed, IQ and BIQ, Skill, Heat resistance, Heat, and Stamina, Regeneration, and Kenbun Haki
Sabo has superior Range and Mobility
Sabo's range doesn't matter due to Sanji having heat resistance and durability good enough to tank his hits.
Sabo's mobility is pretty helpful, but Sanji can also fly with Sky Walk.
Voting Sanji
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DaMonkeMan
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Bro I saw the notification for this thread and I was like "I swear to god I will strangle this guy if he mentions that chapter as an anti-feat for Sabo"
But you didn't. You gave valid input.
I'll add your vote to the OP.
iirc Sanji's Buso is only like, one layer higher, unless I'm forgetting something.
Average Haki using fodder < Burgess' Haki ~ (or <=?) Sabo's Haki
It'd probably be higher but Issho, despite being implied to have used Haki on Sabo (obviously as he can't hurt him otherwise), has almost no Haki feats at all.
Then there's Sanji who scales.... Genuinely forgot what he scales to in terms of Haki. Would need some help on that. But I believe it's a layer above Sabo's.
Also, I think Sabo has the superior AP (scaling off Zoan Sengoku who should be at the very least equal to the Admirals), and POSSIBLY skill, but both are highly skilled at their respective martial arts so I don't think I could give that edge to either fighter.
Sanji resists his flames (long as he activates Armament and/or his Exoskeleton in time ofc), but it's not a big issue, as Sabo should at least be able to control and resist Sanji's flames somewhat.
Not voting rn, just wanted to clear that up. Though it does seem like Sanji has a few more (especially more useful at that) wincons.
But you didn't. You gave valid input.
I'll add your vote to the OP.
I will say, there's some things wrong with this:
iirc Sanji's Buso is only like, one layer higher, unless I'm forgetting something.
Average Haki using fodder < Burgess' Haki ~ (or <=?) Sabo's Haki
It'd probably be higher but Issho, despite being implied to have used Haki on Sabo (obviously as he can't hurt him otherwise), has almost no Haki feats at all.
Then there's Sanji who scales.... Genuinely forgot what he scales to in terms of Haki. Would need some help on that. But I believe it's a layer above Sabo's.
Also, I think Sabo has the superior AP (scaling off Zoan Sengoku who should be at the very least equal to the Admirals), and POSSIBLY skill, but both are highly skilled at their respective martial arts so I don't think I could give that edge to either fighter.
Sanji resists his flames (long as he activates Armament and/or his Exoskeleton in time ofc), but it's not a big issue, as Sabo should at least be able to control and resist Sanji's flames somewhat.
Not voting rn, just wanted to clear that up. Though it does seem like Sanji has a few more (especially more useful at that) wincons.
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Something like that. Let me find the scaling for Sanji rq
DaMonkeMan
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- #92
Btw, even if Sabo didn't match an Admiral, Sanji can't either.
It's kind of like saying "Sakazuki couldn't beat Kaidou!" in a match between him and Yamato.
I mean, duh, but that ain't even relevant because there's few people that could in the verse. Lol.
DaMonkeMan
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I mean.. Aren't their methods of dura neg the exact same? iirc?
You're right on the more amps thing though.
Don't stress your self finding evidence for it, I already believe it, and that can be enough.
iirc it was something like "Average Haki user < Black Maria < Queen ~ Sanji"
Or "Average Haki user < Queen ~ Sanji"?
Or is Sanji above Queen's Haki? I think it's the other two options though because we see him match Sanji's DJ with his Buso-Amped arm, so..
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Current Sanji > Raid Sanji > Beginning of Wano Sanji > Dressrosa-WCI Sanji > FMI-Punk Hazard Sanji
Could be argued higher, but this is the bare minimum, which is already enough to interact with Sabo or resist his flames.
It's implied that Issho has good enough Haki to harm Aramaki, considering they had a fight on Mariejois, and Aramaki scales above the Scabbards in terms of Haki.
I'm not even entirely sure if Sabo scales to Issho's Haki, but if he does, it would still be the same as where he already scales through Burgess.
I'm not too sure about this considering Sabo was unable to harm Issho even a little bit, while he was left with several bruises. Because of this, I think there's reason to believe that Sanji has superior AP than Sabo.
Sanji's No Exoskeleton Base already scales above the likes of Zoan X-Drake who could match a somewhat suppressed Rooftop Zoro, Apoo, and Guernica with the latter being able to tank hits Kazenbo, which could harm Base Yamato.
Because Sanji without his Exoskeleton, Haki, or Diable Jambe already scales around that level, with his amps (Haki, Diable Jambe, Exoskeleton, Enhanced Speed, Ifrit Jambe, etc.), I believe Sanji to have the superior AP between the two.
Sanji has the far superior skill feats. It's not really close, but for the sake of the debate, I'll concede on this point and say that Sabo can probably keep up with Sanji in terms of raw CQC.
I'm not too sure about this considering how Haki resist devil fruit abilities, meaning that Sabo controlling his flames seems unlikely.
Also, Haki has resistance negation, so resisting the heat of Sanji's flames also seems unlikely.
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I don't think is fair to say that Sabo matched Issho.
Btw, even if Sabo didn't match an Admiral, Sanji can't either.
Issho simply blocked his attack. It's like saying Ulti matched Yamato for this interaction.
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No direct scaling but this does make sense
True.
Eh, Guernica overpowered him mid-high diff off-screen, though Zoan X Drake does downscale.
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We still know that Drake can damage Guernica more than Kazenbo could, which was my main point.
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Well either way, Apoo was scared of Zoan Queen but not Guernica, hence why he made the incredibly stupid decision of threatening to expose CP0 when he was in killing distance.
DaMonkeMan
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It'd be more of LS scaling I suppose, since neither side could over power each other, but even then we have hints of them being somewhat equal or relative (though Issho wasn't trying his hardest to beat Sabo).
Ah, yeah, right.
But uh, out of curiosity, any proof for the beginning? The "Dressrosa-WCI Sanji > FMI-Punk Hazard Sanji" part specifically.
I'm not entirely sure he got better Haki during some of these time periods but it's not an argument I'm too hung up on.
Hm.
Well we know Sabo usually uses Haki with his Ryusoken techniques, and we also know Issho required Haki to bruise Sabo, so they probably scale to each other.
I'm not too confident that he fought Aramaki, but yes it is indeed implied he could do that.
So if Sabo really does scale to Issho's Haki then he might have a chance against Sanji in that department.
I don't feel like wasting time trying to find panels of Issho being bruised but it is implied he was hurt as well and even matched by Sabo on some occasions, however this isn't even why Sabo scales above anyway.
It comes from him stomping Burgess and easily overpowering him with one kick (which did about the same amount of damage as Sengoku's shockwave).
Oh, true that.
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I'm fine with that then, although Sanji scales above that too.
Do we?
I don't think this is true.
Can we really compare a Shockwave Durability Negating attack to a Physical Strike landed on someone who wasn't aware of his presence?
Good question.
Well we currently accept Haki growing as when you're in the heat of battle or being pressured by someone with superior Haki than you. Sanji fought against Vergo, which would have grown his Haki.
DaMonkeMan
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Okay.
The soldiers were watching the fight closely, if Sabo weren't able to at least hurt and match Issho then there would be no point in saying this, as they'd practically know Issho is holding back/not trying to capture him (otherwise he could have whooped his ass and brought him in).
I mean, yeah, sure. That's what's on the profiles. If you want, make a CRT to remove it. I don't really care.
Also whether or not Burgess is aware of his presence, he'd still scale because we don't really use "He was off guard!" as an excuse for someone not to scale to someone.
Because by that same logic we'd also claim IJ Sanji doesn't completely scale to Queen as he hit him when he was off guard.
Yeah, he did do that, but it doesn't really lower Queen's basic Zoan defenses.
Yeah I suppose that makes sense.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 17,847
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- #102
In case this may be confusing, I'm essentially saying that if Sabo weren't able to keep up with a casual Issho, the soldiers would grow suspicious of Issho, as he's somehow being held up by someone significantly weaker than himself.
The soldiers were watching the fight closely, if Sabo weren't able to at least hurt and match Issho then there would be no point in saying this, as they'd practically know Issho is holding back/not trying to capture him (otherwise he could have whooped his ass and brought him in).
It aids their little charade if Sabo is actually somewhat as strong as he's portrayed to be by these soldiers.
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The soldiers were watching the fight closely, if Sabo weren't able to at least hurt and match Issho then there would be no point in saying this, as they'd practically know Issho is holding back/not trying to capture him (otherwise he could have whooped his ass and brought him in).
Considering Ifrit scales far above Diable Jambe, which already scales above Queen's durability, that point doesn't really make sense.
Also, Sanji didn't hit an off-guard Queen, as we see him call out to Queen before striking him, something that Sabo did not do.
DaMonkeMan
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- #104
This is why I say he's casual/holding back/not trying to arrest him or anything.
Like yeah, he's trying to act as if he couldn't get past Sabo, but he also wouldn't hold back completely against him either.
We don't see Queen turn around after it, as Sanji attacked too fast for him to really know what the hell was going on above his head.
Also DJ doesn't scale too far above Queen's durability- The entire point of IJ was that it can bypass his durability completely, as he couldn't really do it efficiently with DJ.
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We see him bring Queen to his knees with him wailing in pain from a single kick. We see Sanji break off Queen's arm with a single kick, and we see Sanji knock Queen away with a single kick. What do you mean?
This isn't true. Sanji stated that his Diable Jambe attacks were doing damage to Queen but he was just putting up face to make it seem like they weren't doing damage.
DaMonkeMan
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..For what reason??
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What do you mean
DaMonkeMan
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- #108
Like why would he lie about it.
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I'm not sure why you're asking me
Maybe he didn't want Sanji to believe he has the upper hand?
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 17,847
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- #110
I think I read your message wrong.
But again, we even see Sanji note the attacks aren't doing enough damage to put Queen down.
Which, as I stated before, is why he even unlocked IJ in the first place.
But again, we even see Sanji note the attacks aren't doing enough damage to put Queen down.
Which, as I stated before, is why he even unlocked IJ in the first place.
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He only hit Queen twice in his body. I don't think it's fair to say that he wasn't doing good enough damage to put Queen down. Considering how much those two attacks hurt Queen, I don't think it's far-fetched to say that over time, Sanji definitely would have won.
Ifrit Jambe was clearly overkill.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 17,847
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- #112
Bump
DaMonkeMan
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- #113
Imma just list the wincons/advantages for my self rq:
Sanji:
Better durability
Better speed (with certain amps)
Better regen
Better Haki (and thus negation to Sabo's immunity to flames)
Some other stuff I'm forgetting
Sabo:
Better/Smoother flight
Damage Boost
Better range
etc.
Sanji:
Better durability
Better speed (with certain amps)
Better regen
Better Haki (and thus negation to Sabo's immunity to flames)
Some other stuff I'm forgetting
Sabo:
Better/Smoother flight
Damage Boost
Better range
etc.
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Well, Sanji has this as well
DaMonkeMan
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- #115
True that
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@TheMonkeMan Are you gonna vote homie
DaMonkeMan
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- #117
Seems Sanji has more useful wincons (Speed amps, better Haki and durability) so I guess I'll vote him.
DaMonkeMan
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Who else voted Sanji? Besides you.
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You and Eseseso
