One Piece: Sanji vs Fujitora

[ZKillerz]

I refuse to entertain this borderline despicable notion that the new Admirals are not comparable to the old ones despite having the exact same title and it being state that the only person above them is the Fleet Admiral.

Spoiler: Long list of evidence that it isn't mutual to specific Admirals

"In One Piece 15th Anniversary: Dive to Grand World(Scan 3), it states:
”海賊達を取り締まる、 歴戦の 強者! 元帥、大将、 中将･･･と階級が存在する。 上位であるほど戦闘能力とカリスマ性を 併せ持っているのだ。”
Translation: The powerful men who have fought many battles to control pirates in the past! There are various ranks: Fleet Admiral, Admiral, Vice Admiral, and so on. The higher the rank, the greater the charisma and combat ability."

And although it's in a panel that contains an outlier, we see him use visibily black Armament on his entire sword here:

He could also match Zoro, Luffy, and Sabo's Armament Haki. All of which scale to.. About 3-4 layers? Well, we know Zoro clapped Pica's full body Armament and Luffy's Armament > Doffy's Armament ~ Law's Armament > Vergo's Armament.
In terms of Observation, his is very good.

He can precisely drop rubble on only the enemy fleets, with none of it hitting the Grand Fleet or Thousand Sunny.
He can also find and drop meteors all the way from space to hit opponents.
He also matched a kick from Sabo, who used his DF, while a basic kick from Sabo had damaged Burgess and knocked him away.
Which is impressive, considering Sabo's kick did about as much damage to a stronger version of Burgess than Sengoku's shockwave did to a weaker version.

In conclusion, voting Issho for:
Better Range
Better Observation
Better Armament
Better AP
etc.

they have the same position in the sense that jack holds the same position as king, but that doesn't mean they are equal in power

 

[ZKillerz]

I like how none of that really debunks my point.
The All Stars don't have to be relative, they just have to be stronger than the Tobiroppo and weaker than Kaidou.
The Admirals are always portrayed as a collective power, with no Admiral being above the other.
Claiming Issho is below the others is completely baseless and simply doesn't make sense, it's simple downplay for your agenda of Sanji beating him.
"His Kenbun scales to Doffy" Who called him and Aramaki monsters, and then got scared by his equal, Kuzan?
Issho was blatantly holding back against Doffy, btw. He even said he didn't and couldn't defeat him, he wanted to leave it to Luffy and his gang.
Also, he stopped an attack from Zoro and stopped G2/G3 Luffy's Armament enhanced attacks. He definitely scales to those layers of Haki.

But when is this portrayed though? They are never portrayed as equal powers outside of the og admirals...
Nobody is saying issho is definitively lower than the og admirals, but there's nothing to say he's on their lvl. Burden of proof is on you to prove he is
How is it downplay? His profile only scales him to aramaki not the og admirals.

I agree that he was holding back against doffy

 

[Kachon123]

The Admirals are always portrayed as a collective power, with no Admiral being above the other.

Basing your argument off of portrayal is completely useless and it holds less weight than a feather in a vs debating setting like we're in right now.

Claiming Issho is below the others is completely baseless and simply doesn't make sense

The burden of proof falls on you.

The reason we have Borsalino, Sakazuki, and Kuzan relieve to each other is because they were each individually called the Strongest in the Marines. How can 3 people each be the strongest? The only reason is if they're all equal/relative to each other.

Disregarding feats, If they did not have that statement, we would not have them relative to each other.

Because neither Aramaki nor Issho were stated to be the Strongest in the Marines, they can not be called equal to Borsalino, and especially not equal to Sakazuki or the Pre-Timeskip Admirals.

"His Kenbun scales to Doffy" Who called him and Aramaki monsters, and then got scared by his equal, Kuzan?

What does being scared of Kuzan and calling Aramaki a monster have to do anything with Haki scaling?

The accepted scale for Big Mom's Buso Haki is 6 layers and Katakuri scales to 7 layers despite Katakuri being scared of Big Mom and Big Mom clearly seeing him as far inferior to him.

We do not scale Haki based off of stuff like that. We only scale by feats, or specific haki statements.

Issho was blatantly holding back against Doffy, btw

And you think Doffy was going all out either?

I'm not trying to say Doffy = Issho, but you can't claim that their Kenbun don't scale to each other by saying one was holding back when the other was as well. We have nothing that proves that they were holding back their Kenbun.

In New World fights, Haki is the backbone. It's extremely rare that someone who has Haki doesn't use it.

Also, he stopped an attack from Zoro and stopped G2/G3 Luffy's Armament enhanced attacks. He definitely scales to those layers of Haki

That is not how Buso Haki scaling works.

Haki scaling comes from clashes. Haki clashes.

1. Blocking an attack ≠ Clashing
2. AP Clashing ≠ Haki Clashing
3. 1 person using haki while the other person is not ≠ Haki scaling

 

[ZKillerz]

Basing your argument off of portrayal is completely useless and it holds less weight than a feather in a vs debating setting like we're in right now.

The burden of proof falls on you.

The reason we have Borsalino, Sakazuki, and Kuzan relieve to each other is because they were each individually called the Strongest in the Marines. How can 3 people each be the strongest? The only reason is if they're all equal/relative to each other.

Disregarding feats, If they did not have that statement, we would not have them relative to each other.

Because neither Aramaki nor Issho were stated to be the Strongest in the Marines, they can not be called equal to Borsalino, and especially not equal to Sakazuki or the Pre-Timeskip Admirals.

What does being scared of Kuzan and calling Aramaki a monster have to do anything with Haki scaling?

The accepted scale for Big Mom's Buso Haki is 6 layers and Katakuri scales to 7 layers despite Katakuri being scared of Big Mom and Big Mom clearly seeing him as far inferior to him.

We do not scale Haki based off of stuff like that. We only scale by feats, or specific haki statements.

And you think Doffy was going all out either?

I'm not trying to say Doffy = Issho, but you can't claim that their Kenbun don't scale to each other by saying one was holding back when the other was as well. We have nothing that proves that they were holding back their Kenbun.

In New World fights, Haki is the backbone. It's extremely rare that someone who has Haki doesn't use it.

That is not how Buso Haki scaling works.

Haki scaling comes from clashes. Haki clashes.

1. Blocking an attack ≠ Clashing
2. AP Clashing ≠ Haki Clashing
3. 1 person using haki while the other person is not ≠ Haki scaling

Can you explain haki layers? I'm not familiar with this term

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I don't care what you think. If they have the same position and the same portrayal, and it is constantly said that the only person above them is the FA, then they're relative/equal.
End of discussion. Argue with Oda if you have a problem with that.
Keeping my vote.

 

[Kachon123]

Can you explain haki layers? I'm not familiar with this term

Read this thread

One Piece: Busoshoku Haki Potency and Buso Layers Scaling

First things first we have a clear heirarchy of Haki Potencies in the series. These will be the mechanics for finding out their potency. Scaling Methods of Buso A devil fruit power from a Haki user failing to work on another Haki user means the other Haki user is relative to (or superior to)...

vsbattles.com

 

[Kachon123]

I don't care what you think. If they have the same position and the same portrayal, and it is constantly said that the only person above them is the FA, then they're relative/equal.
End of discussion. Argue with Oda if you have a problem with that.
Keeping my vote.

Your vote can't be counted then.

 

[ZKillerz]

I don't care what you think. If they have the same position and the same portrayal, and it is constantly said that the only person above them is the FA, then they're relative/equal.
End of discussion. Argue with Oda if you have a problem with that.
Keeping my vote.

What portrayal are you referring to though? The only thing you've shown so far is issho being stated to hold the strongest position in the marines not necessarily the strongest marine as the og admirals are stated to be...

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Your vote can't be counted then.

******* stop being a biased bitch.
I'm tired of you always ignoring shit and making up headcanon for these threads.
All you're doing is being blatantly ignorant of the fact that Kizaru, Issho, and Aramaki are literally portrayed the exact same ways.
It's even worse that you're literally claiming Kizaru > Issho for this idiotic agenda.
Some how, you think they will appoint 2 characters weaker than the previous 2 Admirals and Kizaru for the same exact role as them? That make 0 sense.
They drafted Issho and Aramaki specifically because they think their power is a good enough replacement for Kuzan and Akainu.
Not to mention, they outright said the navy is stronger than ever under Sakazuki's rule.
But despite ALL OF THIS, you're still willing to say that Issho is weaker than the others, and that Sanji beats him.
Really sad. Really despicable. And just pathetic. I don't have many words for displays like these.
But what ever. Either way, Issho still has better range, AP, etc.

 

[Kachon123]

******* stop being a biased bitch.
I'm tired of you always ignoring shit and making up headcanon for these threads.

If you have a claim (which the main part of your vote comes from) and it has counterarguments, but then you respond with "I don't care I'm keeping my vote," then it can not be counted.

 

[ZKillerz]

******* stop being a biased bitch.
I'm tired of you always ignoring shit and making up headcanon for these threads.
All you're doing is being blatantly ignorant of the fact that Kizaru, Issho, and Aramaki are literally portrayed the exact same ways.
It's even worse that you're literally claiming Kizaru > Issho for this idiotic agenda.
Some how, you think they will appoint 2 characters weaker than the previous 2 Admirals and Kizaru for the same exact role as them? That make 0 sense.
They drafted Issho and Aramaki specifically because they think their power is a good enough replacement for Kuzan and Akainu.
Not to mention, they outright said the navy is stronger than ever under Sakazuki's rule.
But despite ALL OF THIS, you're still willing to say that Issho is weaker than the others, and that Sanji beats him.
Really sad. Really despicable. And just pathetic. I don't have many words for displays like these.
But what ever. Either way, Issho still has better range, AP, etc.

Your acting like this is common knowledge and not agreeing with it is disingenuous when not even his vsb profile agrees with what ur saying...

 

[Kachon123]

I'm not going to acknowledge the opinions and votes of someone who:

A. Argues against what is on the profiles
B. Disregards counterarguments, replying saying that they don't care
C. Uses Ad Hom
D. Can't structure a cohesive argument.

I'm not going to waste my time on you. If you want to have your votes counted, you need learn how to form convincing arguments, how to be respectful when stating your opinions, and how the wiki works.

 

[ZKillerz]

I'm not going to acknowledge the opinions and votes of someone who:

A. Argues against what is on the profiles

Tbf the profiles can be incorrect at times like with eustass kidd

 

[Kachon123]

Tbf the profiles can be incorrect at times like with eustass kidd

If you want to have your votes counted, you need learn how the wiki works.

Part of debating here is that if you're arguing something off of the profile, it can not be used as a vote unless you make a CRT and it gets accepted.

In that scenario, the thread would have to be on a pause for a minimum 2 days, as that is the Grace period for CRTs, before further debating continues.

 

[ZKillerz]

Part of debating here is that if you're arguing something off of the profile, it can not be used as a vote unless you make a CRT and it gets accepted.

In that scenario, the thread would have to be on a pause for a minimum 2 days, as that is the Grace period for CRTs, before further debating continues.

So should I remove his vote orr?

 

[Kachon123]

So should I remove his vote orr?

Given how his reasonings are:

better range, AP,

Better Range
Better Observation
Better Armament
Better AP

With only one of them (range) being based on his Admiral relativity take and he failed to address any of this:

Buso Haki:

Issho Haki ~ Sabo Haki > Burgess Haki = Koka > Regular Buso (2 Layers)

Current Sanji Haki > Onigashima Sanji Haki > WCI Sanji Haki > Dressrosa Haki > BOTS Sanji Haki (4 Layers)

Sanji Buso Haki > Issho Buso Haki


AP:

Long Version: Issho Fruit AP > Issho Physicals ~ Kizaru =< PTS Akainu > PTS Blackbeard >~ Marco AP
Simplified: Issho Fruit AP > Issho Physicals >~ Marco

Long Version: IJ + SS > IJ > DJ + SS Sanji > DJ Sanji > Queen Mech > Marco Durability ~ Marco AP
Simplified: IJ + SS > IJ > DJ + SS > DJ > Queen Mech > Marco

Sanji AP > Issho AP


Speed:

Long Version: Issho ~ Jack ~ Base Inuarashi ~ Ashura Doji ~< Casual Dragon and Base Kaidou ~ 1 Homie Big Mom ~ Marco
Simplified: Issho ~< Marco

Long Version: IJ + SS > IJ > DJ + SS > SS > Queen Perceptions ~ Marco
Simplified: Sanji's Fastest >> Marco

Sanji Speed > Issho Speed


Kenbun Haki:

Sanji Kenbun > Post Katakuri Luffy Kenbun > Pre Katakuri Luffy Kenbun > Doflamingo Kenbun ~ Issho Kenbun

Sanji Kenbun Haki > Issho Kenbun Haki


Stamina/Endurance:

Issho: _

Sanji:
Sanji's Endurance/Stamina > Issho's Endurance/Stamina

Durability:

Long Version: Issho Durability ~ Aramaki Durability < Base Yamato Hao >~ Base Kaidou ~ Base Big Mom ~ Marco Durability
Simplified: Issho Durability ~< Marco Durability

Long Version: Sanji Leg + Buso > Ifrit Jambe AP > Sanji Leg > Queen Vinsmoke Amped Mech AP > Sanji Exo Body > Sanji Non-Exo Body > Queen Mech AP > Marco Durability
Simplified: Sanji's Legs at their strongest >>> Sanji's Exo Body >> Queen Mech AP > Marco

Sanji's Durability > Issho's Durability


Mobility:

Issho can stand on rocks, then use his Devil Fruit ability to move said rock through the sky

Sanji can run and jump on the sky and switch directions quickly and easily

Sanji's Mobility > Issho's Mobility

Range:

Issho can bring Meteors from space

Sanji can not

Issho's Range > Sanji's Range



Sanji wins.

I'd say to remove it until he does so and makes new arguments or makes a CRT to make all Admirals relative to each other.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Your acting like this is common knowledge and not agreeing with it is disingenuous when not even his vsb profile agrees with what ur saying...

Because his vsb profile doesn't account for the fact that some people will have agendas putting the old Admirals over the new ones for literally no reason at all.
Also, you can't disregard a vote because " he hurt muh feelings and doesn't agree with me " that's not even how it works, I stated valid reason for my vote.
Whether you like it or not, it's a valid vote.
Issho simply has better AP, range, Haki, etc.
And until you actually disprove those wincons, my vote will always be valid.
This isn't based on feelings. It's based on facts and evidence.

 

[Kachon123]

Buso Haki:

Issho Haki ~ Sabo Haki > Burgess Haki = Koka > Regular Buso (2 Layers)

Current Sanji Haki > Onigashima Sanji Haki > WCI Sanji Haki > Dressrosa Haki > BOTS Sanji Haki (4 Layers)

Sanji Buso Haki > Issho Buso Haki


AP:

Long Version: Issho Fruit AP > Issho Physicals ~ Kizaru =< PTS Akainu > PTS Blackbeard >~ Marco AP
Simplified: Issho Fruit AP > Issho Physicals >~ Marco

Long Version: IJ + SS > IJ > DJ + SS Sanji > DJ Sanji > Queen Mech > Marco Durability ~ Marco AP
Simplified: IJ + SS > IJ > DJ + SS > DJ > Queen Mech > Marco

Sanji AP > Issho AP

Address this.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

And no, I'm not making a CRT for something Oda him self has proved. Read the manga dude.

 

[Kachon123]

If you're not going to make a CRT for something that is not reflecting on the profiles, and still think your vote, which is based on said thing, is still going to count, the you're wrong.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

In terms of Haki, he should scale to Kizaru who scales to Marco ( who has Haki above Sanji ), and Aramaki, though the latter doesn't have a ton of Haki feats tbf.

 

[Kachon123]

Why would Issho's Buso scale to Kizaru's?

And even if he did, Sanji's Buso still scales above the Marco that Kizaru scales tho.

Current Sanji > Onigashima > WCI > Dressrosa > BOTS Sanji > Average Haki (5)

Marco > Post-Jinbe Ace > Post-Sabaody Ace > Draw > Average Haki (4)

 

[DaMonkeMan]

If you're not going to make a CRT for something that is not reflecting on the profiles, and still think your vote, which is based on said thing, is still going to count, the you're wrong.

Again, I don't need to make a CRT for what's in the manga.
Oda said they are comparable, so they are comparable.
I'm sorry you think otherwise but that's just how it is.
Also, something important to note is that Issho's sword most likely would not break on Sanji's sword.
Mihawk has said that swords coated in Armament Haki wouldn't break on anything, so I really doubt Issho's sword would crack on Sanji's body. It'd probably behead him, actually.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Why would Issho's Buso scale to Kizaru's?

Haki is required for Vice Admirals, and the implication is that Advanced Armament is required for Admirals ( we see all 3 of the original trio using it in Marineford, and it would stand to reason that due to them being overall stronger, they'd have vastly superior Haki to the VAs as well ), and that they are on the same level in terms of most stats (Kizaru is stated to have superior speed, but this is only one stat, if he were superior in another it would have been stated there as well).

And even if he did, Sanji's Buso still scales above the Marco that Kizaru scales tho.

1. • ← He wears a blue flame and prevents Kizaru's attacks! He is also a user of the highest power of the color of armament."

 

[Kachon123]

Again, I don't need to make a CRT for what's in the manga.
Oda said they are comparable, so they are comparable.
I'm sorry you think otherwise but that's just how it is.

I'm not going to keep repeat myself after this.


If you interpret Oda's words that way, then sure. I tried to change your mind and you seem quite adamant in your opinion. The fact of the matter is that this wiki only goes off what is accepted on the profiles through CRTs. Even if you are correct, you would need to make a CRT to implement it before arguing it as fact.

Also, something important to note is that Issho's sword most likely would not break on Sanji's sword.
Mihawk has said that swords coated in Armament Haki wouldn't break on anything, so I really doubt Issho's sword would crack on Sanji's body. It'd probably behead him, actually.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I'm not going to keep repeat myself after this.


If you interpret Oda's words that way, then sure. I tried to change your mind and you seem quite adamant in your opinion. The fact of the matter is that this wiki only goes off what is accepted on the profiles through CRTs. Even if you are correct, you would need to make a CRT to implement it before arguing it as fact.

Did you just seriously show me a panel of a fodder using weak Armament Haki on the Funk brothers and compare it to Issho using Armament on Sanji?

 

[Kachon123]

the implication is that Advanced Armament is required for Admirals ( we see all 3 of the original trio using it in Marineford, and it would stand to reason that due to them being overall stronger, they'd have vastly superior Haki to the VAs as well ), and that they are on the same level in terms of most stats (Kizaru is stated to have superior speed, but this is only one stat, if he were superior in another it would have been stated there as well).

1. Armament Emission is not Layers.
2. Is having a Devil Fruit an implied requirement to be an Admiral just because all of the Admirals have one?
3. Scaling above Vice Admirals' Haki pontency ≠ Scaling to each others' Haki potency

1. • ← He wears a blue flame and prevents Kizaru's attacks! He is also a user of the highest power of the color of armament."

If Marco has the highest level of Buso, that means he would have been able to interact with Sakazuki, which he was not.

This is a figure of speed. Marco just as really potent Haki, which is evident in the fact that he has 4 layers of superiority over average haki users.

 

[Kachon123]

Did you just seriously show me a panel of a fodder using weak Armament Haki on the Funk brothers and compare it to Issho using Armament on Sanji?

I showed you a panel of someone with a blade coated in Buso having their weapon broken on something that wasn't, disproving your claim that Haki-clad blades can't break.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

If Marco has the highest level of Buso, that means he would have been able to interact with Sakazuki, which he was not.

This is a figure of speed. Marco just as really potent Haki, which is evident in the fact that he has 4 layers of superiority over average haki users.

This too.
The fact the other Admirals can interact with Sakazuki and Marco can't is also good evidence for Issho's Haki being over Sanji.

I showed you a panel of someone with a blade coated in Buso having their weapon broken on something that wasn't, disproving your claim that Haki-clad blades can't break.

Association fallacy.
You'd have to prove that Issho's sword would break on Sanji.
A random fodder with way worse Haki than both Sanji and Issho breaking his axe doesn't matter.

 

[Kachon123]

The fact the other Admirals can interact with Sakazuki and Marco can't is also good evidence for Issho's Haki being over Sanji.

How so?

You'd have to prove that Issho's sword would break on Sanji.

When did I claim that his Buso-clad sword would break on Sanji?

It definitely wouldn't harm him, although if he doesn't coat his sword with Buso, it would break on Sanji.

A random fodder with way worse Haki than both Sanji and Issho breaking his axe doesn't matter.

Fix your wording then.

 

[Kachon123]

I'm not even going to continue debating this point until you prove that Kizaru's Haki = Issho's Haki.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

could possibly break Issho's sword with his body,

 

[Kachon123]

When did I claim that his Buso-clad sword would break on Sanji?

 

[ZKillerz]

Where does fujitora's haki being equal to kizaru's come from?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Literally never said that you said that.
Anyway, back on topic.

He also matched a kick from Sabo, who used his DF, while a basic kick from Sabo had damaged Burgess and knocked him away.
Which is impressive, considering Sabo's kick did about as much damage to a stronger version of Burgess than Sengoku's shockwave did to a weaker version.

Can someone address this or does Issho just have better AP?
Because for now, I believe he has better AP.
Though Sanji seems to have better durability, possibly relative speed (as Issho doesn't have lots of speed feats so far), and his heat manip could give him trouble, though Issho can block it with Armament or use gravity to disperse the flames.
Oh, also Sanji's LS allows him to resist the gravity. So that's a plus.
On the flip side, Issho seem to have better Haki, AP, range, etc.
Both sides have some good wincons ngl. But I still keep my vote for Issho. He may not have a ton of speed or durability feats, but he still has a lot of portrayal, statements, and feats that should put him over Sanji in other categories.

Where does fujitora's haki being equal to kizaru's come from?

They're equals in most stats.

 

[Kachon123]

Where does fujitora's haki being equal to kizaru's come from?

According to him, these are the reasons:

1. Admirals apparently being equal
2. Kuzan, Sakazuki, and Borsalino all showing Buso Emission in Marineford
3. Then having better Buso than Vice Admirals


The counterarguments:

1. Not reflected on the profiles. A CRT needs to be made.
2. Buso Emission isn't Haki Potency
3. 1000 and 6 are both > 2. That doesn't mean they are equal to each other.

 

[Kachon123]

He also matched a kick from Sabo, who used his DF, while a basic kick from Sabo had damaged Burgess and knocked him away.
Which is impressive, considering Sabo's kick did about as much damage to a stronger version of Burgess than Sengoku's shockwave did to a weaker version.

Shockwaves are internal damage while Sabo's kick is not. You can't compare Internal Damage to External Damage to say that the External Damage AP > the Internal Damage AP.

 

[Kachon123]

By the way, @TheMonkeMan, your vote still can't be counted until you make a CRT to get it on the Admirals' profiles.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

That literally is not the only reason why I voted. Please stop doing that. Also you didn't even make the ******* thread.

Shockwaves are internal damage while Sabo's kick is not. You can't compare Internal Damage to External Damage to say that the External Damage AP > the Internal Damage AP.

They still did the same amount of damage nonetheless.

 

[Kachon123]

That literally is not the only reason why I voted. Please stop doing that. Also you didn't even make the ******* thread.

Simply Range is not enough to give someone a win. Those quite liteally are the only things that could possibly give Issho the win (although Sanji still scales higher than Kizaru in AP).

They still did the same amount of damage nonetheless.

Irrelevant.