Bill Cipher and GF Cosmology Discussion

[StrymULTRA]

Later I'll work on sandboxes on the new thread and the revised version of the profile if you want.

 

[Andytrenom]

What's all the proof for Bill destroying the multiverse including Nightmare realm?

I believe the "threat to the multiverse" statement was countered as Bill just not being a localised thread by Somebody Data. Fabric of existence is also not necessarily all of existence so Low 1-C off of that might be flimsy

 

[StrymULTRA]

What's all the proof for Bill destroying the multiverse including Nightmare realm?

I believe the "threat to the multiverse" statement was countered as Bill just not being a localised thread by Somebody Data. Fabric of existence is also not necessarily all of existence so Low 1-C off of that might be flimsy

Is simple: Time Baby is pretty much aware of other dimensions since is stated to come from another one, and he couldn't be reffering to just an universe. Plus he appeared during the Weirdmageddon, thus he must be reffering to it when it was saying about the existence collapsing.

 

[Antvasima]

Actuallly, If you are available today, would you please give us your inputs?

I do not have enough free time and focus. My apologies.

Easy to understand explanations, of what is being suggested and why, are always useful in order to make things easier for our staff to evaluate though.

Edit: Never mind. I saw that you wrote an explanation earlier.

 

[Antvasima]

What's all the proof for Bill destroying the multiverse including Nightmare realm?

I believe the "threat to the multiverse" statement was countered as Bill just not being a localised threat by Somebody Data. Fabric of existence is also not necessarily all of existence so Low 1-C off of that might be flimsy

Thank you for helping out Andy.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am a bit iffy about the tier. While the higher plane things could be valid, there is little to no evidence that it is higher infinite in the tiering system. The Nightmare realm is a similar case with the poor evidence regarding higher infinite in the tiering system.
The evidence would have been stronger if the author's tweet were proved true.

So, Immeasurable speed is iffy, to me.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

I am a bit iffy about the tier. While the higher plane things could be valid, there is little to no evidence that it is higher infinite in the tiering system. The Nightmare realm is a similar case with the poor evidence regarding higher infinite in the tiering system.
The evidence would have been stronger if the author's tweet were proved true.

but there is also a 5D calculus scan for Nightmare Realm, is it poor evidence too?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Elizhaa. It is appreciated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I am a bit iffy about the tier. While the higher plane things could be valid, there is little to no evidence that it is higher infinite in the tiering system. The Nightmare realm is a similar case with the poor evidence regarding higher infinite in the tiering system.

Heh, tbh it should be. As it exists between all the universes and it's needed a 5th dimensional formula, (and I remind that everytime Stanford talks about things as "two-dimensional" etc he reffers to spatial dimensions), and is an higher place, so why not.

 

[Eficiente]

I answered to some of this stuff here, in the comment after this one as a reply to the latter.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So, Immeasurable speed is iffy, to me.

A thing like “possible Immeasurable” then?

 

[JooCipher]

oh boy another discussion about Bill's tier

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

oh boy another discussion about Bill's tier

so, will you help crt

 

[JooCipher]

so, will you help crt

sure, why not
what's the main idea here? Is it Bill destroying nightmare realm? Bill BEING the Nightmare realm?

 

[StrymULTRA]

sure, why not
what's the main idea here? Is it Bill destroying nightmare realm? Bill BEING the Nightmare realm?

Former

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Honestly, until the Twitter statements get an actual link, I think we should make a thing like this:

Low 2-C physically, as he can indeed destroy a reality/universe from his own, and Low 1-C via Weirdmageddon, as he could still make collapse the whole reality or also making it completely lawless and mess it as he wanted to (he was still a treat to it heh), only that doesen't scale physically as he had to escape from the Nightmare Realm)

Plus Higher-Dimensional Existence as he still originates from an higher plane and was implied to be above 3Ds on a dimensional POV, so in short:

• 4D Physically
• Low 2-C in stats
• Low 1-C via hax

Multiverse still 5D is good as the whole Nightmare Realm is still an higher plane, a space between all the universes and to "access" it it was needed a 5D calculus, meaning that it should be Low 1-C in itself.

Honestly, the new ratings I've suggested got enough approvals to get applied. However, we'd need a staff member agreeing with my new suggestion.

That said, Bill should also get Higher-Dimensional Manipulation due of him messing with 5D stuff via hax.

Hax-wise he should also get:

• Spatial Manipulation (Controls space)
• Rage Power and Transformation (When angry he transforms in his Monster Form, making him stronger)
• A justification for Law Manipulation, Causality Manipulation and Physics Manipulation (Stated to be able to free the reality from any kind of law and causality system)
• Electricity Manipulation (Obvious reasons here)
• Self-Sustenance (Types 1, 2 and possibly 3) due of him heavily implied to not have respiratory and nutritional needs. 3 is already adressed in stamina.
• Resistance to Extreme Cold, Cosmic Radiations, as it was shown him freerly in outer space after all, Time Manipulation (Was implied to not be bound from the flow of time), Reality Warping, Transmutation and Life Manipulation due of him not being affected from his messing up the reality with Weirdmageddon
• Type 4 Acausality should be a thing too because he was an inhabitant of the Nightmare Realm, which is lawless, and he wouldn't be affected from the laws of reality and causality being affected unlike the others, plus the flow of time thing

1st key Bill should also get:

• Resistance to Quantum Manipulation (Exists in a state of quantum uncertainty, making alterations on a quantum scale against it ineffective)
• Extrasensory Perception (Could see Dipper's soul despite the latter can't be seen nor heard from regular humans)

Speed wise, I think Immeasurable should return, according to the FAQ:

They can qualify for Immeasurable Speed, however, if the regular dimension of time appears like a spatial dimension from their higher dimensional perspective. That is to say, that it can freely be traversed both forward and backwards, allowing them to access any point in it and move unbound by the notions of time inherent to the lower space. An example of this are the Bulk Beings from Interstellar.

Bill should, as he could freerly time travel, is unbound from time itself unlike 3Ds (who I already mentioned that for him are limited comparated to his new status of existence) and, again, comes from an higher plane.

I know the only actual evidence is him not being bound from the flow of time, but the other 2 just makes it more solid and makes it fit more the FAQ.

I want to add one more addition hax for Bill;
Cosmic Awareness: He was watching Ford and Dipper from another dimension (This dimension is Nightmare Realm).

Cosmic Awareness is associated with both Clairvoyance and Enhanced Senses and acts as a combination of the two that takes it to a much higher scale, allowing users to observe others from across the universe and "hear" things across such distances.

So many main ideas I think...

 

[JooCipher]

gravity falls multiverse being 5-d seems fair enough
people have been shown to be able to exist within the nightmare realm without having resistence to the haxes so idk
i'm surprised he didn't have cosmic awareness before

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Andytrenom @Elizhaa @Eficiente

What do you think of Yar_R_agi_7k's second to last post that summarises the arguments here?

 

[Andytrenom]

I'm fine with the Nightmare realm being 5D

Existing in quantum uncertainty seems too vague to get a resistance to quantum manipulation out of

I'm not sure where Bill having causality manip comes from, the link just takes me to an unrelated GF Wiki page

I would like to know where it's proven Bill can destroy a universe on his own

Bill is seeing the events of earth through screen of some kind, cosmic awareness would be him sensing it on his own

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

oh thanks for your feedback

I'm not sure where Bill having causality manip comes from, the link just takes me to an unrelated GF Wiki page

''You snooze you lose pal don't you understand ım only trying to free your dimension.I ask you why should time only move forward why must cause precede effect who voted on the laws of phyisics. Rules are perversions against all will that's why ım about to rewrite the whole system buddy and no one is going to stop me''
Yeah ı agree with this

I would like to know where it's proven Bill can destroy a universe on his own

yes we discussed it in the other discussion thread but as you said it will probably be taken through the ''via rift'' (I'm still against but whatever)

Bill is seeing the events of earth through screen of some kind, cosmic awareness would be him sensing it on his own

I understand so let me take a look at the panels for that.
so do you agree with other hax's?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Andy.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

To what I found scrolling up some:

Low 2-C physically, as he can indeed destroy a reality/universe from his own

Could you give the source for this?

Low 1-C via Weirdmageddon, as he could still make collapse the whole reality

This quote neither claims he'd collapse it, nor does it mean all 2-A multiverse. It's talking about our universe, with visuals about our universe. Nothing there implies 2-A scale, or destruction.

or also making it completely lawless and mess it as he wanted to

The universe, yes. But that's his reality warping.

(he was still a treat to it heh)

This was brought up plenty of times in the past. Regardless of there being infinite universes, someone going out and destroying universes for fun would still be considered a threat and stopping that could be described as saving it from his "wrath". Ford was multiversally wanted for far lesser crimes.

Plus Higher-Dimensional Existence as he still originates from an higher plane

He is originally from a 2D plane (and Ford went to a 2D plane, and outright said that despite what you might think, he wasn't godlike to them). The nightmare realm is the foam between universes, but not only is it naturally decaying with or without Bill, it is also a free-for-all to anyone who goes there. Ford outright says that normal people might accidentally eat a planet while there due to funky physics. And I recall and can see, no actual claims of Bill himself destroying this dimension.

and was implied to be above 3Ds on a dimensional POV

Since this was a summary of arguments, mind giving the quote? He can see through a lot of stuff, yes, but he doesn't look down on it as a person would look at a piece of paper or anything of the like. I think I recall him seeing through everything shaped like his eye, including the trees and the painted glass.

Multiverse still 5D is good as the whole Nightmare Realm is still an higher plane, a space between all the universes and to "access" it it was needed a 5D calculus, meaning that it should be Low 1-C in itself.

Higher dimensions alone mean nothing for tiering now, you know that, right? You'd need to prove that being 5D makes you uncountably infinite.

A hard thing to do, since 3D and 2D people alike can enter the Nightmare Realm, and since the 11-dimensional beings we know of crashlanded on planet earth. Whether they died or not doesn't even matter, because higher (spatial) dimensions only get higher infinities if you assume it gives you uncountably more mass, which would have blown the planet to smithereens.

• Spatial Manipulation (Controls space)

Agreed.

• Rage Power and Transformation (When angry he transforms in his Monster Form, making him stronger)

Based on what? He can shapeshift a lot, which should make transformation not worth adding. And he already has rage power listed, though I don't agree with it. The fact that him being angry makes him use a power he always has doesn't mean he can exclusively use that power when angry.

• A justification for Law Manipulation, Causality Manipulation and Physics Manipulation (Stated to be able to free the reality from any kind of law and causality system)
• Electricity Manipulation (Obvious reasons here)
• Self-Sustenance (Types 1, 2 and possibly 3) due of him heavily implied to not have respiratory and nutritional needs. 3 is already adressed in stamina.
• Resistance to Extreme Cold, Cosmic Radiations, as it was shown him freerly in outer space after all,

Agreed, but you forgot to link the electricity.

• Time Manipulation (Was implied to not be bound from the flow of time), Reality Warping, Transmutation and Life Manipulation due of him not being affected from his messing up the reality with Weirdmageddon

Nah. The Reddit Q&A can't be used for one, but for another, he only took control of time after that Q&A took place at all, and while he plans to remove causality, the implication was that as long as someone was controlling time he couldn't.

• Type 4 Acausality should be a thing too because he was an inhabitant of the Nightmare Realm, which is lawless, and he wouldn't be affected from the laws of reality and causality being affected unlike the others, plus the flow of time thing

Agreed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Stuff

I'll post all that you need tomorrow, I'm tired asf now.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Oh, that's fine. I haven't read the whole thread, so if anything I brought up has been answered/countered before just grab the scan from there and repost it.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Could you give the source for this?

This. But in the other discussion Efi stated that this is "via rift", but there was opposite polarization, of course ...

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

A hard thing to do, since 3D and 2D people alike can enter the Nightmare Realm, and since the 11-dimensional beings we know of crashlanded on planet earth. Whether they died or not doesn't even matter, because higher (spatial) dimensions only get higher infinities if you assume it gives you uncountably more mass, which would have blown the planet to smithereens.

mmm actually those beings are not 11-dimensional, it is implied/meaning that they were born in universes 7 to 11. I mentioned this on the blog as well, and thank you for your feedback

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

This. But in the other discussion Efi stated that this is "via rift", but there was opposite polarization, of course ...

Not sure what you specifically mean.

The one about him being feared means little tier wise. And anything done in the nightmare realm is hardly scalable to the characters, because humans eating planets and all. that

The time baby quote outright states that it is the rip in reality that will destroy "the very fabric of existence". However, this has been argued to death and decided to be referring to that universe, and what he's doing to our universe is what he did to his own. In isolation you might argue something, but we see for a fact that the rip was created before he even got a body, and we also see that he isn't physically doing anything despite the rip doing it's thing.

The claim about transitioning into a multi-dimensional being is about how he is 3D. Because his life goes as follow. Lives in a 2D realm -> "liberates" it -> goes to live in the nightmare realm -> creates a 3D body -> can affect reality as he did minds.

Nothing else would imply him doing it with his body.


And... his body is not Low 2-C when we actually see it in action. And you can't claim PIS when there is no concrete opposing evidence, the idea of Bill being a glass canon whose body is easy to break while his reality-warping is his main power is absolutely consistent with what Bill is presented as.

mmm actually those beings are not 11-dimensional, it is implied/meaning that they were born in universes 7 to 11. I mentioned this on the blog as well, and thank you for your feedback

No, I don't agree with that.

"Dimension" as a word is used for both spatial dimension and universe-alternative by Ford. You assumed he meant universe when he was talking about them, but... "pan-dimensional" and "they exist in 7 to 11 dimensions at once" cannot function if that were the case.

Pan-dimensional is not a word that can be used if you define dimension as a synonym for universe. Their gag, relies on them having to juggle moving in 7 to 11 directions at once, and thus crashing. Ford has used the word dimension in the context of a spatial dimension.

Assuming that they aren't higher dimensional makes no sense here.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

No, I don't agree with that.

"Dimension" as a word is used for both spatial dimension and universe-alternative by Ford. You assumed he meant universe when he was talking about them, but... "pan-dimensional" and "they exist in 7 to 11 dimensions at once" cannot function if that were the case.

Pan-dimensional is not a word that can be used if you define dimension as a synonym for universe. Their gag, relies on them having to juggle moving in 7 to 11 directions at once, and thus crashing. Ford has used the word dimension in the context of a spatial dimension.

Assuming that they aren't higher dimensional makes no sense here.

But if we think about the reason Ford knew them, couldn't it be because he traveled dimensions in the multiverse? and there are examples for the universes/dimensions he travels, not all of them are used as spatial dimensions. Also, doesn't pan-dimensional mean across dimensions?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Ricsi. I haven't seen you here in a while.

 

[Antvasima]

But if we think about the reason Ford knew them, couldn't it be because he traveled dimensions in the multiverse? and there are examples for the universes/dimensions he travels, not all of them are used as spatial dimensions. Also, doesn't pan-dimensional mean across dimensions?

I think that pan-dimensional means "all of the available dimensions" in a certain setting.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

But if we think about the reason Ford knew them, couldn't it be because he traveled dimensions in the multiverse? and there are examples for the universes/dimensions he travels, not all of them are used as spatial dimensions. Also, doesn't pan-dimensional mean across dimensions?

His traveling in the multiverse is stated to be the reason he knows of them, but I fail to see how this affects things?

He traveled to a 2D dimension just fine, I see no reason why he could not travel to a higher dimension as well.


Pan-dimensional is saying that something is in all dimensions (pan, meaning all in latin). If it were to refer to universes, that would be non-sensical. If it's referring to spatial dimensions, that means there are 7 to 10 dimensions.

The problem is also that they are described as existing in those dimensions at once, which rules the possibility of them simply being spread over those dimensions. It is also directly followed by referencing their bad sense of direction, which would be a complete non-sequitur if it weren't for spatial dimensions.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Thank you for helping out Ricsi. I haven't seen you here in a while.

Yeah, hell of a year. At least now in summer, I'll be free more.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

His traveling in the multiverse is stated to be the reason he knows of them, but I fail to see how this affects things?

He traveled to a 2D dimension just fine, I see no reason why he could not travel to a higher dimension as well.


Pan-dimensional is saying that something is in all dimensions (pan, meaning all in latin). If it were to refer to universes, that would be non-sensical. If it's referring to spatial dimensions, that means there are 7 to 10 dimensions.

The problem is also that they are described as existing in those dimensions at once, which rules the possibility of them simply being spread over those dimensions. It is also directly followed by referencing their bad sense of direction, which would be a complete non-sequitur if it weren't for spatial dimensions.

Okay, I will think about it a little bit. You put me in a contradiction... Also, according to what you said, does it not make the Nightmare Realm in 11 dimensional?, because it is stated that all dimensions connection/between/gateway on it.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Okay, I will think about it a little bit. You put me in a contradiction... Also, according to what you said, does it not make the Nightmare Realm in 11 dimensions, because it is stated that all dimensions connection/between/gateway on it.

F indeed.

And, yeah, spatially. Though I don't think it scales with our tiering system, since being higher dimensional doesn't actually make you infinitely stronger than a lower D person, which is why we updated the wiki's standards to include needing proof of such a high superiority.

Since Ford claims that he wasn't a god to 2-D people, and 7 to 11D people died on a crash on earth, I think Gravity Falls doesn't equate dimensionality with tier.


Bill himself is "weak" as he is in his first key because he can only manifest in minds. He was the terror of the multiverse before he dimensional makeover while in the nightmare realm, so his first key reasoning should probably be changed to reflect that.


Man... I almost feel like a bad guy with all the downgrading I've been doing for this guy...

I hope that Inside Job references Bill a bit more so that some upgrades can be done for him. Then again, if we took cross-referencing for canon, then Star vs Evil; Rick and Morty and Gravity Falls would be in a shared universe.

 

[StrymULTRA]

There’s an issue with all of this.

It says “dimensional-hooping” life, which is referring to the parallel dimensions and not the spatial ones here

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

There’s an issue with all of this.

It says “dimensional-hooping” life, which is referring to the parallel dimensions and not the spatial ones here

As I said, he uses "dimensional" for both spatial dimensions and universe-synonym. That's just a thing he does.

However, just because he uses one meaning, doesn't mean he can't use another meaning later. (Crass, but I can say "that's pretty shit" to refer to something's quality, then say "that is a pile of shit" and mean it literally a few sentences after.)


I said above why spatial dimension makes sense then their bodies existing in 7 to 11 universes at once.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Agreed, but you forgot to link the electricity.

It's actually was in Bill's physical key, but if we count this as electricity manipulation, it can be added to his key in a mind too.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Could you give the source for this?

It was the "Bill destroying the reality scan" and him time travelling and using another body to destroy an universe initially. However, there's a statement about him having "infinite power". While it sounds an hyperbole, he's still superior to Time Baby, who comes from another dimension and can consume time, so that can be a Low 2-C rating. Tho, if it can help, he can tamper with alternate realities as well from itself, meaning that prolly even 2-C can go? Also, to support the infinite power statement, we'd need the scan of Mabelland having infinite energy so that's not hyperbole.

This quote neither claims he'd collapse it, nor does it mean all 2-A multiverse. It's talking about our universe, with visuals about our universe. Nothing there implies 2-A scale, or destruction.

As said, he comes from another dimension, he must be reffering to all the verse for one, since he must be aware of every other dimension.

The universe, yes. But that's his reality warping.

My man, I argued "Low 2-C, Low 1-C with Weirdmageddon" since that's the result of his hax. Weirdmageddon effects don't scale physically to it at all, due of Bill having to escape from Nightmare Realm. Plus, as another evidence that even the Nightmare Realm is under his controll, he could summon his friends from there, which couldn't make sense if he wasn't controlling even it.

Since this was a summary of arguments, mind giving the quote? He can see through a lot of stuff, yes, but he doesn't look down on it as a person would look at a piece of paper or anything of the like. I think I recall him seeing through everything shaped like his eye, including the trees and the painted glass.

Basically he heavily implied to not being bound from the 3rd dimension anymore. And don't try to bring the "muh reality-fiction" because we got dudes as Anime Ghidorah who are the reason why such conception on higher dimensions isn't a thing anymore.

Nah. The Reddit Q&A can't be used for one, but for another, he only took control of time after that Q&A took place at all

What are you even saying here.

And... his body is not Low 2-C when we actually see it in action. And you can't claim PIS when there is no concrete opposing evidence, the idea of Bill being a glass canon whose body is easy to break while his reality-warping is his main power is absolutely consistent with what Bill is presented as.

Against Shacktron he could kinda of fight on par tbh. Also the latter was heavily implied to be powered from that Unicorn's dust, so it kinda was Low 2-C tbf

Also, Nightmare Realm kinda should be treated as an higher infinity, since it actually enconpasses all the universes and is implied to be beyond them and their space-time (due of each of them having their own laws heh), which should be Low 1-C for the FAQ. Using "but even 3Ds can enter in it" isn't a counter because Distortion World is both 4D and 2-B to 2-A sized and humans can still exist in it.

About the 11-Ds, there's an issue. "Pan-Dimensonal" means just "Of or pertaining to all dimensions of reality." on wikitionary. And these 11 Dimensions didn't shown to be Higher-D as well, since Ford was reffering to just the parallel dimensions which he was travelling across in context.