MASSIVE Gravity Falls Upgrade

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

I fixed the speed

We need to discuss if Bill has 2-A Dura, if his AP scales, and if not, what other AP feats bill has (I know I sound like a broken record for saying it a 3rd time, but 4-C via calling the Sun Underwhelming)

 

[Lightbuster30]

It's difficult to explain why, but tier 4 for thinking the Sun is underwhelming sounds pretty stupid. We're taking one statement that has zero context and conflating it to mean he can destroy it or has comparable AP to it's GBE.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

If this is was a normal character the changes would accepted ages ago but no, it's bill cipher

the most hot topic character besides superman and goku in terms of the VS community. OF COURSE people need to be contrarian for it be not accepted and give reasoning as towards why he shouldn't have a particular thing in general

I've seen the bill cipher topic be discussed for nearly 6 years now and it hasn't changed one bit

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

If this is was a normal character the changes would accepted ages ago but no, it's bill cipher

the most hot topic character besides superman and goku in terms of the VS community. OF COURSE people need to be contrarian for it be not accepted and give reasoning as towards why he shouldn't have a particular thing in general

I've seen the bill cipher topic be discussed for nearly 6 years now and it hasn't changed one bit

It has nothing to do with being a contrarian. How we're treating Bill Cipher here is consistent with how we treat others. Cell and Trigon don't get Universal via being called universal threats; Bill isn't the exception from what we've been over. If you genuinely believe what we're discussing here is wrong, then you should give a reason rather than just complaining about it.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Can someone also contact mods that discussed this previous threads ago?

 

[Planck69]

It has nothing to do with being a contrarian. How we're treating Bill Cipher here is consistent with how we treat others. Cell and Trigon don't get Universal via being called universal threats; Bill isn't the exception from what we've been over. If you genuinely believe what we're discussing here is wrong, then you should give a reason rather than just complaining about it.

Honestly this. The fact that we're actually giving the time of day to such statements is hilarious. Nevermind how even the rift feat has very little context behind it.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

It has nothing to do with being a contrarian. How we're treating Bill Cipher here is consistent with how we treat others. Cell and Trigon don't get Universal via being called universal threats; Bill isn't the exception from what we've been over. If you genuinely believe what we're discussing here is wrong, then you should give a reason rather than just complaining about it.

How the mighty have fallen, i still remember when you claimed that bill cipher was High 1-C by the old wiki standards

Tho in seriousness, yes i somewhat come out as daft and arrogant there because this topic has cracked my mental health a few times due to the amount of times i've argued about bill cipher alone... Man good thing that bill is at least Low 2-C because at some point people legitimately considered Bill barely galaxy level

But still i'm kinda surprised that the 2-A option for bill isn't even a "possibly" just straight out left out as a ineligible tier because of a chain reaction for some reason

Also could you like use a better example than Cell and Trigon? to be considered a universal threat via chain reaction is obvious because that said universe is finite in number but it just doesn't fit with Bill in this case because we are dealing with a infinite number, no matter how you put it it will never be the same kind of chain reaction because infinite divided by infinite is still infinite... Unless this topic is already discussed you're gonna point it out somewhere

 

[Planck69]

>But still i'm kinda surprised that the 2-A option for bill isn't even a "possibly" just straight out left out as a ineligible tier because of a chain reaction for some reason

Chain reactions outright don't scale to a character though. It would just be "X, Y-tier via chain reaction".

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

>But still i'm kinda surprised that the 2-A option for bill isn't even a "possibly" just straight out left out as a ineligible tier because of a chain reaction for some reason

Chain reactions outright don't scale to a character though. It would just be "X, Y-tier via chain reaction".

^

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

>But still i'm kinda surprised that the 2-A option for bill isn't even a "possibly" just straight out left out as a ineligible tier because of a chain reaction for some reason

Chain reactions outright don't scale to a character though. It would just be "X, Y-tier via chain reaction".

When did i say that chain reactions scale towards the character in particular? My statement wasn't about the chain reaction scaling to the character but how valid the chain reaction itself is because as of now it's really vague how you call the threat of the wider multiverse a chain reaction

 

[Planck69]

Ignoring how "a threat" scaling is dumb as hell IMO, the rift itself would've destabilized reality over time and cause the collapse, not nuke everything at once. I think that's why it's called a chain reaction.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

Ignoring how "a threat" scaling is dumb as hell IMO, the rift itself would've destabilized reality over time and cause the collapse, not nuke everything at once. I think that's why it's called a chain reaction.

Excuse me? Overtime?

Are you literally ignoring one thing about the whole rift in the first place? And that is that the rift opens the Nightmare Realm, a realm that is located between all dimensions and it's directly tied to them
If the rift opened it would instantly take over the universe and the multiverse because the entire multiverse is connected to the nightmare realm which the rift opens upon

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

How the mighty have fallen, i still remember when you claimed that bill cipher was High 1-C by the old wiki standards

Sorry to say but opinions aren't linear.

Tho in seriousness, yes i somewhat come out as daft and arrogant there because this topic has cracked my mental health a few times due to the amount of times i've argued about bill cipher alone... Man good thing that bill is at least Low 2-C because at some point people legitimately considered Bill barely galaxy level

But still i'm kinda surprised that the 2-A option for bill isn't even a "possibly" just straight out left out as a ineligible tier because of a chain reaction for some reason

Also could you like use a better example than Cell and Trigon? to be considered a universal threat via chain reaction is obvious because that said universe is finite in number but it just doesn't fit with Bill in this case because we are dealing with a infinite number, no matter how you put it it will never be the same kind of chain reaction because infinite divided by infinite is still infinite... Unless this topic is already discussed you're gonna point it out somewhere

Bill is being removed from Low 2-C physically as well btw.

2-A is being left out because there's literally nothing to show that he's physically that level. It's either he's doing it via the rift, or he has incredibly ambiguous statements that wouldn't place him at that tier regardless.

I'm not talking in the context of a chain reaction; I'm talking about tiering someone off the idea of being a threat. Adding infinity to the equation doesn't really change anything. For one, Bill is an immortal being, so he could theoretically go around causing havoc in universes for eternity. Not only that, he has the means to do it via range. Books outright confirm he can tamper with other realities. It could just be a speed feat even; the point is that nothing really suggests it's AP-oriented aside from the Rift, something he literally cannot scale to. These examples are perfectly valid comparisons.

 

[Planck69]

Excuse me? Overtime?

Are you literally ignoring one thing about the whole rift in the first place? And that is that the rift opens the Nightmare Realm, a realm that is located between all dimensions and it's directly tied to them
If the rift opened it would instantly take over the universe and the multiverse because the entire multiverse is connected to the nightmare realm which the rift opens upon

Except it did open and it clearly did not nuke everything....

But eh, not like it matters.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Except it did open and it clearly did not nuke everything....

But eh, not like it matters.

Time Baby clearly said that if the rift would REMAIN open it would destroy the fabric of existance, not that it would destroy it the moment it opens

Also Bill Cipher clearly did the rift. He opened it when physically coming to the main GF universe and he also personally unleashed Weirdmaggedon.
Also the rift, alongside with all of the things Bill did, were reversed once Bill was defeated, meaning the rift is connected to Bill

 

[Planck69]

That I did not refute. In fact, that's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

Bill is being removed from Low 2-C physically as well btw.

Are you serious? not even Low 2-C?

Ploz, the arguments you bring to the table can be argued to be otherwise and i might even be wrong at that but my willpower of even debating for bill cipher is zero. I would've loved to actually be able to argue about him but the unwelcoming replies and the overall tone of this thread just doesn't make me want to

Sorry for taking your time, and i hope your new opinion gets accepted

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That I did not refute. In fact, that's the point I'm trying to make.

The thing is that the rift would have destroyed the multiverse had it left opened for long enough time. Meaning it won't nuke it instantly, but after a while of being left like that, it will definitely happen. Also time baby clearly described that as an explosion, meaning it's instant

 

[Planck69]

I suppose that makes sense. Though it would still not scale to his physicals to me.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I suppose that makes sense. Though it would still not scale to his physicals to me.

Fine by me, as long as he gets 2-A for that

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain the conclusions here so far in a concise manner please?

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Bill get's matter manip and spatial manip added to his page and gets a 2-A attack via opening up a rift

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Bill's 2nd key is getting revised completely, where he is going to be either "2-A" or "Unknown, 2-A via chain reaction", and is getting "possibly Multiverse level+" durability, along with Spatial Manipulation. We are still debating if Bill is solidly 2-A or just 2-A via interdimensional rift

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks for the summaries. What are the arguments for each side in a concise easy to understand manner?

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

The Arguments are that Bill should only have "possibly Multiverse level+" durability, as he could easily survived the destruction of the multiverse, albeit the method is Unknown (It could be via Immortality or Low-Godly regeneration).

The Counterargument for it being regen is how the multiverse has inhabitants that are souls, ghosts, and spirits, so it would bypass Low-Godly via Soul Manipulation, and this would mean Bill would need Mid-Godly, which would contradict how he was defeated (Being erased). Also, most cases of surviving the destruction of the multiverse is via durability.

EDIT: Also, I am not sure whether Bill's physical AP should scale to his durability if it is Multiversal+

EDIT: Also, Bill should have Spatial Manipulation, he outright states he can control space

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given his small size, wouldn't he only have to tank a very small part of the power that would destroy the multiverse?

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Well, given his small size, wouldn't he only have to tank a very small part of the power that would destroy the multiverse?

I'm pretty sure surface area is only relevant involving 3-D feats

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

EDIT: Also, I am not sure whether Bill's physical AP should scale to his durability if it is Multiversal+

Well, he’s able to trade blows with the Shacktron, which is able to harm physically harm him. So that could be taken into account.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well, he’s able to trade blows with the Shacktron, which is able to harm physically harm him. So that could be taken into account.

The Shaktron specifically had Anti-Bill spells that made Bill really weak against it

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well, given his small size, wouldn't he only have to tank a very small part of the power that would destroy the multiverse?

The multiverse is infinite, so tanking a small part of an infinitely big explosion should still be infinite I think

 

[Lightbuster30]

That doesn't automatically mean something like say, every square inch of the explosion is 2-A.

 

[Ari64-SP]

That doesn't automatically mean something like say, every square inch of the explosion is 2-A.

”Hey wiz? What’s half of infinity? In****ingfinity!”
-Boomstick 2012

 

[Lightbuster30]

”Hey wiz? What’s half of infinity? In****ingfinity!”
-Boomstick 2012

A literal infinitely fraction of infinity? This logic only goes so far.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Can someone contact the mods who commented on 2-A bill previously?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Do we even know if Bill was going to survive the Multiverse being destroyed? The most we get is him simply not caring, and yet the whole point of creating the rift was to escape the Nightmare Realm which was going to destroy itself. So you're telling me he could give two ***** about the multiverse blowing up, yet fears a multiversal sized realm blowing up to the point of trying to flee from it?

 

[liluzivert]

would existence = space time tho? I was in agreement at first but people brought up some really good counter arguments so I’ll hold off from voting for a while.

 

[InfiniteDay]

A literal infinitely fraction of infinity? This logic only goes so far.

Every square inch of the explosion in a universe would be Low 2-C, while every universe destroyed would also be Low 2-C.

 

[Planck69]

I'm pretty sure surface area is only relevant involving 3-D feats

It's still relevant with higher feats, we just can't calculate it (for obvious reasons)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That doesn't automatically mean something like say, every square inch of the explosion is 2-A.

It kind of is since it's literally infinite. Infinity divided by anything would always be infinity

 

[Planck69]

It kind of is since it's literally infinite. Infinity divided by anything would always be infinity

Erm, not sure if this is the case when infinity is divided by infinity, which is just unquantifiable based on how we seem to treat it.

That said, Bill would be close enough to the explosion to scale, if he did scale.