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That's still not enough to declare him above ESTO and not even Kaguya. Firstly, where was it said that he is the strongest threat they have fighting? and even if that statement exists, why would it necessarily be above ESTO? here on the site we consider the destructive power of ESTO as EE, and that doesn't scale to her physique, the High 4-C tier comes from the power of creation of dimensions.
Uh I provide all the scans that I quote in the OP. Furthermore, regardless of what you think, being caught off guard isn’t an anti feat. Unfortunately no matter how many times you bring up Isshiki being caught off guard, that doesn’t debunk his scaling.
 
here on the site we consider the destructive power of ESTO as EE, and that doesn't scale to her physique, the High 4-C tier comes from the power of creation of dimensions.
You might want to re-read the ETSO’s justification.
Kaguya's dimensions contain Stars and Planets and her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball is capable of destroying and re-creating them
 
Not only that, Sakura is also a problem
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Agree FRA.

Also I feel like Damage has a problem with the way the wiki itself functions or some sort of confirmation-bias. A shit ton of verses jump from town level to universe level with ease. So why is it a problem when the Naruto verse gets upgraded to Planet level with 1 calc? Plus the feat was done extremely casually. There's also 1 Small Planet level calc and Momoshiki's whole planet energy eating mumbo jumbo, so I really don't see the problem
 
I'm just going to place my thoughts below. I'm not going to get into some long ass debate but I wasn't going to just not voice my opinion. Note that my stance on this won't change so this will pretty much be my only comment here.

While I'm fine with characters like Madara, Naruto, Kaguya and all them scaling, I'm in complete disagreement with the likes of the current Kage, Shikamarau and such scaling to 5-B even with just his shadows, it's just an outlier. Iike Damage said, were pretty much out voted here but that's not going to stop me from voicing my disagreement.

You can use the power escalation argument/standard shonen who ha nonsense but there's a limit in my opinion. Look at it from this perspective, Hashiram was dubbed the God of Shinobi, and you had other powerful ninja around during his time and the later generation couldn't compare because they people from the past were just built different. Biju were saught after because how powerful they were, characters like Minato and Itachi and so on are treated as prodigies that only show up once in a lifetime, and in the end we see what God Tier is when it requires Ten Tails/Sage of Six Paths juice to reach even for characters like Madara.

However, here come the current Kage, who weren't anything to special during shippuden. They weren't weak, but they damn sure weren't top dogs, they were just apart of the generation that fell before the old generation of battle harden shinobi. They didn't show any signs of exponential grown during their life, heck minus Gaara, the others were the previous Kages subordinate. They were those who's look on in awe at the power displayed by Hashirama vs Madara and be like "Oh he'll no." But then just give them 20 years and they didn't just reach the old generations level, they didn't just pass it, the ******* shattered It!

You mean to tell me that these characters that were showcased as not as powerful the OGs, and couldn't compare to the power of the God Tree, just decided to do some off screen training like they've never did before and just broke their limiter and surpassed anything that the previous ninja, who were not only stronger than them, but also treated as prodigies with all the potential could even hope to achieve in their entire lifespan in a shorter time then they have been alive without any God buffs.

Now let me be clear, I'm not denying the scaling, the feats are there and this you have justification. So everyone's agreement has valid reason. I'm just saying that from the perspective I'm looking at, the current kage/old scaling to the true God Tiers just doesn't make sense. Also, before anyone brings up Dragon Ball, another verse or whatever, I don't agree with it when other verses due it either so don't bother. It may be standard for manga to do this but what is the limit?

Regardless, my opinion isn't going to change anything since it's clear majority agree (for valid reasons) so do as you will, as I said, I agree with majority of the characters listed but the Kage and a few others.
 
Also I feel like Damage has a problem with the way the wiki itself functions or some sort of confirmation-bias. A shit ton of verses jump from town level to universe level with ease. So why is it a problem when the Naruto verse gets upgraded to Planet level with 1 calc? Plus the feat was done extremely casually. There's also 1 Small Planet level calc and Momoshiki's whole planet energy eating mumbo jumbo, so I really don't see the problem
Some of my issues are axiomatic so there is no way of seeing eye-to-eye on some points so you're not entirely wrong.
 
I'm just going to place my thoughts below. I'm not going to get into some long ass debate but I wasn't going to just not voice my opinion. Note that my stance on this won't change so this will pretty much be my only comment here.

While I'm fine with characters like Madara, Naruto, Kaguya and all them scaling, I'm in complete disagreement with the likes of the current Kage, Shikamarau and such scaling to 5-B even with just his shadows, it's just an outlier. Iike Damage said, were pretty much out voted here but that's not going to stop me from voicing my disagreement.

You can use the power escalation argument/standard shonen who ha nonsense but there's a limit in my opinion. Look at it from this perspective, Hashiram was dubbed the God of Shinobi, and you had other powerful ninja around during his time and the later generation couldn't compare because they people from the past were just built different. Biju were saught after because how powerful they were, characters like Minato and Itachi and so on are treated as prodigies that only show up once in a lifetime, and in the end we see what God Tier is when it requires Ten Tails/Sage of Six Paths juice to reach even for characters like Madara.

However, here come the current Kage, who weren't anything to special during shippuden. They weren't weak, but they damn sure weren't top dogs, they were just apart of the generation that fell before the old generation of battle harden shinobi. They didn't show any signs of exponential grown during their life, heck minus Gaara, the others were the previous Kages subordinate. They were those who's look on in awe at the power displayed by Hashirama vs Madara and be like "Oh he'll no." But then just give them 20 years and they didn't just reach the old generations level, they didn't just pass it, the ******* shattered It!

You mean to tell me that these characters that were showcased as not as powerful the OGs, and couldn't compare to the power of the God Tree, just decided to do some off screen training like they've never did before and just broke their limiter and surpassed anything that the previous ninja, who were not only stronger than them, but also treated as prodigies with all the potential could even hope to achieve in their entire lifespan in a shorter time then they have been alive without any God buffs.

Now let me be clear, I'm not denying the scaling, the feats are there and this you have justification. So everyone's agreement has valid reason. I'm just saying that from the perspective I'm looking at, the current kage/old scaling to the true God Tiers just doesn't make sense. Also, before anyone brings up Dragon Ball, another verse or whatever, I don't agree with it when other verses due it either so don't bother. It may be standard for manga to do this but what is the limit?

Regardless, my opinion isn't going to change anything since it's clear majority agree (for valid reasons) so do as you will, as I said, I agree with majority of the characters listed but the Kage and a few others.
So you’re fine with all the Otsutsuki, Cyborgs, and Naruto and Sasuke? Just not Shikamaru or the Kage?
 
You need to explain why they’re outliers, you can’t just say that they are.
Shikamaru scaling to half of Sasuke’s power (someone who is a literal god tier for the shinobi) is illogical, considering that Shika is CONSISTENTLY portrayed in the narrative to not be someone who focuses on power, but moreso strategy
 
Imo the scaling for Naruto, Sasuke, and the Otutsuki (idk how to spell) and Madara and Guy are fine, my issues are with Shikamaru and the kage for the reasons above
 
Hell, if I had to forced into it then I could see the Otsutsuki, Cyborgs and Naruto + Sasuke being Planet level even if I wasn't totally fine with it.

The Kage + Shikamaru are my biggest sore points on this list.
If we wanna focus in on the Kage + Shikamaru, and you wanna give your arguments against them in totality, that’s cool.
 
Shikamaru scaling to half of Sasuke’s power (someone who is a literal god tier for the shinobi) is illogical, considering that Shika is CONSISTENTLY portrayed in the narrative to not be someone who focuses on power, but moreso strategy
Y’know, that doesn’t mean he can’t be 5-B at all. Strategists can still be powerful, hell, look at Shikamaru’s previous tiers with Shadow Possession. Are all his prior showings invalid now because “the strategist can’t be that powerful”?
 
Some of my issues are axiomatic so there is no way of seeing eye-to-eye on some points so you're not entirely wrong.
To be fair I feel like you're attempting to overly rationalize your own inherent idea despite there being, according to the wiki's standards, enough evidence that your perception of what Naruto should scale to is wrong. Naturally, no laws are absolute true and that's all human made mumbo jumbo. Besides, you're trying to rationalize why a fictional character can't jump from Moon level+/Small Planet level despite the fact that said characters literally defy the laws of physics on the daily and a million and one things should've been impossible yet still happened. Characters jumped from building level to town level to mountain level to country level around before. Plus, it's not as if it's narratively inaccurate to say that the God Tiers (i.e. Otsutsuki, Six Paths Peeps, etc.) CAN be planet level given the fact that a) they're based on japanese buddhism
b) the otsutsuki are space travelling planet vampires and eat the energy of planets as they please
c) them literally hurling the Moon into space after 3 months of fighting straight and creating the moon
d) a character being able to casually throw the moon at the earth to completely annihilate it casually without causing any drawbacks to their combat power
Shoot me if I'm wrong but I feel like your idea of what's impossible in the Naruto verse is a tiny bit exaggerated.
 
Y’know, that doesn’t mean he can’t be 5-B at all. Strategists can still be powerful, hell, look at Shikamaru’s previous tiers with Shadow Possession. Are all his prior showings invalid now because “the strategist can’t be that powerful”?
Shikamaru restraining a 5-B character is something that isn’t in line with his prior showings whatsoever
 
Look i get the reaction that many have to this, ask anyone who knows me how much i mald over some of the scaling and how much it retroactively ruins the world building of Naruto, but we cant ignore blatant feats and scaling just because it sounds or looks stupid,we cant gatekeep characters from scaling out of preference and bias which is what this ends up being.
 
If we wanna focus in on the Kage + Shikamaru, and you wanna give your arguments against them in totality, that’s cool.
It's just a matter of general portrayal / unexplained power-ups.

Six Paths Madara kicked Minato without completely eviscerating him. Does this mean we should scale Minato to Planet level? I wouldn't think so.

Tsuchuikage punching away Kinshiki or Chojuro clashing with Kinshiki without being one-shot doesn't mean they have to be his equals. We'd just put it down to PIS that they go from relative nobodies to "strongest characters in the verse" without any apparent explanation.
 
Look i get the reaction that many have to this, ask anyone who knows me how much i mald over some of the scaling and how much it retroactively ruins the world building of Naruto, but we cant ignore blatant feats and scaling just because it sounds or looks stupid but we cant gatekeep characters from scaling out of preference and bias which is what this ends up being.
I feel like people who scream "HOW CAN NINJAS BLOW UP PLANETS" dont really understand the cultural context of Naruto and the sources of inspiration it draws from, not to say that naruto should scale to japanese buddhist theology but still. Narratively it makes sense, and is supported by in verse feats and statements
 
Look i get the reaction that many have to this, ask anyone who knows me how much i mald over some of the scaling and how much it retroactively ruins the world building of Naruto, but we cant ignore blatant feats and scaling just because it sounds or looks stupid,we cant gatekeep characters from scaling out of preference and bias which is what this ends up being.
We ignore blatant feats all the time on the wiki. I don't think I'm that wrong at all in saying that; whether it is to scale characters higher, or scale characters lower, there are tons of cases of ignoring a character's feats or anti-feats on the wiki.
 
Why does teenage Shikamaru inherently limit what adult Shikamaru can do?
Even teenage Naruto showed a consistent line of strength increase from then to now. Shikamaru jumping from 7-C to 5-B after becoming an adult (someone who has shown no combat feats and simply works as Naruto’s advisor) is simply dishonest
 
It's just a matter of general portrayal / unexplained power-ups.

Six Paths Madara kicked Minato without completely eviscerating him. Does this mean we should scale Minato to Planet level? I wouldn't think so.

Tsuchuikage punching away Kinshiki or Chojuro clashing with Kinshiki without being one-shot doesn't mean they have to be his equals. We'd just put it down to PIS that they go from relative nobodies to "strongest characters in the verse" without any apparent explanation.
Which form of Madara was that?

Chojuro and Tsuchikage also blatantly harm Kinshiki with their jutsu, and as that is their only showings I think it’s best to scale them there.

I agree that it’s stupid that these Kage can cliff six paths characters after everything we saw in Shippuden, but that doesn’t debunk their scaling.

Whether we end up fully scaling the Kage or giving them likely/possibly ratings I’m not strongly feeling one way or the other, but I find it wrong to just ignore their only showings.
 
I mean... what was Madara doing? Why go through the effort of getting all of the Tailed Beasts in order to have enough chakra to power the Infinite Tsukuyomi when all he needed to do was train in a cave for ten years and he could go from Country level to Planet level?

That's the kind of ridiculouslness that ensues when you just accept the insane power-increases these characters go through without a reason that Naruto and Sasuke have. It it sheer PIS.
 
We ignore blatant feats all the time on the wiki. I don't think I'm that wrong at all in saying that; whether it is to scale characters higher, or scale characters lower, there are tons of cases of ignoring a character's feats or anti-feats on the wiki.
it's entirely based on context, more often than not those characters have a lot of anti feats, that are they should scale to those feats.
 
This is just generally why I despise Boruto as a medium because it completely disregards consistency in Naruto and is literally nothing more than a wankfest for strength
 
Just to clarify something, I have no issues with the AP upgrading, as I have mentioned before, it's what the narrative implies throughout the story, but on other hand, the scaling chain is utterly terrible, so even if I agree with Damage as an opposition, we still disagree on the reasons.



My Reaction to reading Boruto's Section.
 
It feels jarring is an argument from incredulity. Like I agree, it is weird, but that doesn’t make it inherently incorrect.
Yeah I know, hence why I said I disagree. Not that it's inherently untrue. The writer can pull off any kind of stupidity as they please. I neither have proof nor patience to try to figure out why Shikamaru specifically wouldn't scale
 
I totally disagree with many things proposed in this thread, and I will mount an argument against, though that it might take a while.
 
That's the kind of ridiculouslness that ensues when you just accept the insane power-increases these characters go through without a reason that Naruto and Sasuke have. It it sheer PIS.
We have to accept them because the writers do.

I have to live in a world where Goku and vegeta have to train decades with gods to achieve their powers when Piccolo and Krillin can one day decide to train for a few days or months and reach similar powers.

It's absolutely asinine but they are blatant feats regardless of how i feel.
 
Here’s my thoughts: if you think the scaling is stupid, fine. Whatever. That’s your opinion. But it doesn’t debunk or devalue the feats.

Is it wacky that the Kage became Ōtsutsuki level? Sure. But they have feats putting them at Ōtsutsuki level, so they scale to Ōtsutsuki level.

It being wacky isn’t an argument against it.

It being weird isn’t an argument against it.

Just calling it bad isn’t an argument against it.

The feats are there. Y’all need to actually debunk those, spamming arguments of incredulity aren’t helping you here.
 
to sum it up: I agree with the AP upgrade, however I'm staying neutral on the scaling chain beyond basic stuff like the Otsusuki scaling to it, Karma Barfruto and Kawasaki, Nardo and Sausage, etc.
 
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