Avengers: Endgame - Another Discussion Thread! SPOILERS!!!

[Warren_Valion]

Y should Hawkeyes arc be the one that gets changed to accommodate Thor?

Make no mistake I realise that Thor is a fan-favourite and hence everyone wants him to be great 100% of the time, but it shouldn't be so much so that they have to work other characters arcs around his.

Hawkeye was solid in the movie and his arc I felt was rather well done- though it could have done with more screen time but it's already a 3hour movie. Thor's arc while not universally loved still gave him solid character development while avoiding treading too familiar grounds.

Cause this is my hypothetical desires for the characters, and I wanted Thor to have this type of story arc. So obviously I would change Hawkeye's arc - or just remove him from the plot entirely to accommodate what I wanted since this is my hypothetical.

 

[Js250476]

You can never make everyone happy.

^^^^^ Quoted for truth

 

[Davidsteel1]

You can never make everyone happy.

True that.

@Warren I realise it's what you felt would have been ideal- and consequently your hypothetical- and I'm not trying to insult you or anything of the sort. I'm just trying to point out that stuff like that I feel just doesn't seem like good story telling.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren I realise it's what you felt would have been ideal- and consequently your hypothetical- and I'm not trying to insult you or anything of the sort. I'm just trying to point out that stuff like that I feel just doesn't seem like good story telling.

No you aren't.

You responded to my comment on changing Hawkeye's character arc with a "why change the arc to accommodate Thor's story?", and I responded with a "this is something along the lines of what I would have done for Thor if I wrote the script and Hawkeye would have never had such a similar arc in my version".

You aren't explaining why such a writting the character in such a direction would be good or bad storytelling at all, the only criticism you wrote is when you said that you would find it sort of generic.

Yet you also said that you enjoyed Hawkeye's character arc despite it basically being the same thing which goes to show that if done right, anything generic can still enjoyable - there is a reason why cliches are cliches.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Bad story telling would altering the plot and arcs of other characters solely to benefit a single character; that's what I meant.

Yes the whole happy dude becoming an edegelord is generic but I never said it was bad. For Hawkeye I felt it was fine but if it went to Thor I'd enjoy it less.

In summary, messing with other characters arcs and the general story to benefit a single character is bad story telling. And edgelord while generic isn't fundamentally bad. I feel like there was a miscommunication in regards to what I thought was bad storytelling.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I think that Hawkeye turning into Ronan makes no sense. Thanos kills his family, and he kills...Random people? It doesn't factor in to the plot and just seems lasy.

Thor being a fat foll the whole movie negates his entire ark. For several movies his ark was learning to be a leader and then they just reverse that? Why?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Let's see here. Brother became evil, his mother died, his brother tricked him into thinking he's dead, father died, his sister came back and turned out to be evil, his home blew up, half of his entire country got murdered in front if him right after he decided he was ready to lead them including his brother, half of everyone, everywhere dies because he "didn't go for the head", his revenge means nothing because his mistake can't be undone like he thought it could, and he's had five years to stew in his grief as the world gets more desolate over a mistake that he feels like he made.

Yeah, I'm gonna chalk that up to depression there chief. People gave limits, even gods. Thor's characterization made perfect sense to me.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah his characterization already feels fitting and more sense, changing him to be more edgy shit will just make him out of nowhere character tbh and that's bad.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Thor's depression made sense to me as well.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Bad story telling would altering the plot and arcs of other characters solely to benefit a single character; that's what I meant.
Yes the whole happy dude becoming an edegelord is generic but I never said it was bad. For Hawkeye I felt it was fine but if it went to Thor I'd enjoy it less.

In summary, messing with other characters arcs and the general story to benefit a single character is bad story telling. And edgelord while generic isn't fundamentally bad. I feel like there was a miscommunication in regards to what I thought was bad storytelling.

I'm not altering anything, as I am not literally giving Thor the same character arc that Hawkeye had.

This would be how I would generally write the script if I was given the chance. It's a change in the script.

A script change or a rewrite isn't bad storytelling. That's ridiculous.


And what? Thor isn't a happy guy, he isn't like Goku. Did you see that conversation he had with Rocket in Infinity War about Fate and losing it all? Did you see him come to Earth in Infinity War screaming for Thanos? Did you see him yell and cut of Thanos's head while he was still taking in Endgame?

The Thor I wanted to see was not just me changing the character into something I thought was cool, but is a direction I thought the character was going to and should have taken based on facets of the character that were already established in the beinging of Endgame and in Infinity War.

My whole theme about being bound by Fate and making up from one's failures isn't something that I made up, but what was already established in the narrative. I just wanted that expanded on in a satisfying way.

 

[Ercosore]

I think that Hawkeye turning into Ronan makes no sense. Thanos kills his family, and he kills...Random people? It doesn't factor in to the plot and just seems lasy.
Thor being a fat foll the whole movie negates his entire ark. For several movies his ark was learning to be a leader and then they just reverse that? Why?

Hawkeye doesn´t kill random people, he kills criminal, the reasoning is quite simple, he finds unfair that his family, that innocent people died while criminals got to live.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@The Wright Way

I agree with you, Thor has a right to be depressed after all he lost, but just because someone is depressed doens't mean they have to get fat - getting angry is a very human way of going through depression when it comes to stressful situations as well, just look at Hawkeye in the same movie.

And seeing Thor cut of Thanos's head so brutally in the beginning of Endgame, I thought that was the road they were going to take with Thor's depression. That it was going to be through his anger, not his stomach.


That's my entire point.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

There are only two types of people in this world, people who cried during end game and liars. I have to admit myself that I wasn't a very big fan of Tony up until now. That's not to say that I didn't like him, I just always thought of him as snobby and too cocky for my liking. But End Game has certainly changed that, the amount of character development he got here was insane. Although I'm torn apart on how I should feel about Tony giving up his life with his life with his wife and daughter.

 

[MasterOfArda]

The reason he gave in the movie was not that they survived when innocent people didn't, it was that they survived when other people didn't. That might have been his reason, but it was not stated in the movies.

Plus that is only one critiscim. Another is that the time travel and the final battle were objectively terrible. On a less plot related note, Hawkeye didn't shoot a single arrow, and Natasha didn't fight one person. And Hulk didn't even samsh. It makes me think am I watching an Avenger's movie or not?

This has even less excuse then Infinity War with its much smaller cast.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Hawkeye did fire an arrow though, he fired down the hallway towards some outriders. Also, Natasha fought Hawkeye.

 

[MasterOfArda]

He fired one arrow? In the entire movie? That didn't even hit anyone? How is that better?

Competing to commit suicide is not fighting. The gratuitious action also distracts from what should be an emotional moment.

And that still doesn't excuse the poor writing.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The reason he gave in the movie was not that they survived when innocent people didn't, it was that they survived when other people didn't. That might have been his reason, but it was not stated in the movies.
Plus that is only one critiscim. Another is that the time travel and the final battle were objectively terrible. On a less plot related note, Hawkeye didn't shoot a single arrow, and Natasha didn't fight one person. And Hulk didn't even samsh. It makes me think am I watching an Avenger's movie or not?

This has even less excuse then Infinity War with its much smaller cast.

What was wrong with the Time Travel?

I thought this movie dealt with Time Travel better than most moives do.

 

[Ercosore]

I would even say is probably one of the best uses of time travel have seen in a movie.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Yeah, it can be used for information or to gather items, but it leaves any paradox plot holes out.

 

[Js250476]

The movie even jabs at time travel stories "Back to the future was bullshit" has me reeling

 

[InfiniteSped]

I think fat Thor was alright. 5 years with basically nothing to do, no super villain to fight, and with all the guilt he had, I can see why he'd just stay at home doing nothing and get out of shape. At least Clint could take his anger out on random criminals, but Thor doesn't really have anyone that can pose any challenge.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I think fat Thor was alright. 5 years with basically nothing to do, no super villain to fight, and with all the guilt he had, I can see why he'd just stay at home doing nothing and get out of shape. At least Clint could take his anger out on random criminals, but Thor doesn't really have anyone that can pose any challenge.

For me it was more of the action of killing then who he was killing that would have mattered to a grief stricken character.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Not sure what you mean by that

 

[Warren_Valion]

Not sure what you mean by that

Like, in his anger, who he is fighting is irrelvant, but the fact that he is fighting, killing, drinking, *******, et cetera is what is important - it becomes his only form of "release".

It his "therapy", it is him trying to fool himself into thinking that his existence isn't comprised of anything but failures.


For an example, it's like when you are mad, and you want to throw something or hit someone, but you don't really care who or what, and you pick the thing next to you.

 

[MasterOfArda]

The main problem with the Time Travel was the whole thing with Captain America at end. I thought you couldn't change time, much less "get a life" in the past.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

And Hulk didn't even samsh.

I mean, they did poke fun at this.

 

[InfiniteSped]

For 5 years though? I can see him getting mad for a while, but at some point he should get tired of it. Hawkeye at least just seemed empty and doing it out of grief.

 

[Ercosore]

I think it makes sense they didn´t went for the "anger" angle. Anger and desire of vengance was that let up to him not "going for the head" the first time, and how even killing Thanos in a fit of anger wasn´t enough to satisfy him. Imo the only thing in Thor mind during infinity war were anger and vengance, after seeing how that ****** him over he went on the deep end.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The main problem with the Time Travel was the whole thing with Captain America at end. I thought you couldn't change time, much less "get a life" in the past.

You can change time, but that change in time doesn't affect the present, it creates an alternate future.

 

[Ercosore]

The cap thing did confused me at first, but I think it was confirmed he didn´t changed the main timeline, he just created a new one and then came back when the Peggy of his timeline died.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I think it makes sense they didn´t went for the "anger" angle. Anger and desire of vengance was that let up to him not "going for the head" the first time, and how even killing Thanos in a fit of anger wasn´t enough to satisfy him. Imo the only thing in Thor mind during infinity war were anger and vengance, after seeing how that ****** him over he went on the deep end.

See, the way I look at it, was that in IW, Thor tried his best not to succumb into the anger and despair that was brooing within him.

So when he saw the embodiment of his failures - Thanos, as an unsatisfying conquest, that anger has no where to turn to and just consumes himself.

 

[Warren_Valion]

For 5 years though? I can see him getting mad for a while, but at some point he should get tired of it. Hawkeye at least just seemed empty and doing it out of grief.

I am not saying that he's going to be super angry for five years straight, but that Thor's anger with Fate will allow him to be comsumed by his grief and sorrow, like it did with Hawkeye.

 

[InfiniteSped]

https://youtu.be/Gd9OhYroLN0?t=26

 

[Ercosore]

I partially agree with you, however while I agree he tried to not succumb in IW he did ended up succumbing, to his anger when he didn´t went for the head just so Thanos could suffer and to his dispair when he realized killing Thanos didn´t change anything. But I could see where you are comming from.

 

[AKM sama]

There are only two types of people in this world, people who cried during end game and liars.

Wot? So I'm not people?

 

[AKM sama]

Also, time travel in the movie was fine. Far better than other movies.

 

[Revan_Laha]

People judging time travel in Endgame are people who have gained knowledge about time travel from watching Doraemon

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Revan Laha Not necessary. Personally, i acept Endgame's version of time travel. Doesn't mean i don't think there are problems in the movie itself.

 

[Jasonsith]

May be off topic: how do you see the claim from Mysterio on the existence of multiverses in the latest Far From Home trailer?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm iffy on it. Not only is Mysterio almost always potrayed as a trickster or liar, Marvel Movies have a trend of misleading trailers (like with Endgame trailers making people think that it was an immediate sequel to IW). We know it exists due to Strange and Endgame, but I wouldn't trust anything the trailer says until the movie comes out.