At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

People, let's leave the accusations outside of this and focus on the proper discussion. Thread is getting derailed now.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Stop for a second. This is a scan of the character who is the Root in a scene describing the root, where there is someone else present. This was considered an acceptable way to prove a point about the Root, so what exactly are we saying? How do we reconcile a stance in which none of this information constitutes a fact that one or both of these people were literally inside the Root, but where what Shiki says during this scene is considered reputable information about the Root?

What is the point of this silliness? Things can be inside the root. It's happened several times. No one had a problem with it until it was an antifeat for Tier 0, why do we have a problem with it now? Why are we quoting scenes where it happens for evidence and then simultaneously writing headcanon to justify it not being what it clearly is? Yet I'm the one being accused of bad faith? No, I don't accept that.

"We?" Who is "We"? I am an outsider to this verse, so I don't care at all about the interpretations that the supporters took before this thread. The fact that this is happening at all should tell you that this spiel about "People are changing their minds!" is completely irrelevant. It doesn't affect one bit of the actual material content of the arguments.

So, if you really don't care about addressing the counterpoints given by the aforementioned two people, I really see no other sensible course of action to just call other staff members. This is not derailing, mind you, but something that actually affects how this thread will progress. Either we stop here or call other people already, or you actually address the posts made against you beyond throwing accusations of headcanon.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

So your take on this is that this is not the Root, that they are both dreaming, and that their dreams are somehow connected, not that the character who is known to be associated with the Root was in the Root?

It's like a wise man named deagon once said, saying no is trying to contradict the source material itself!!

Hey, isn't it weird that in your last rebuttal to me you used a scan from this exact same scene to justify something about the Root?

Yes and that's perfectly fine.

. Is Shiki not actually there? Ritsuka is not there? This is just a fever dream both of them shared that wasn't actually in the root despite both of them being there? That when Shiki described their shared location in a manner that you felt was relevant yesterday as a scan about the Root, she was instead either (A) describing a location that they weren't actually in or (B) describing a dream world?

Take it up with the source material not me, the omniscient character explains how they're both dreaming, but that doesn't mean what they dream about would automatically be misdefined.

It being stated to be without boundaries is consistent with Kara no Kyoukai special pamphlet and Ryougi saying "it is without end" etc, dreaming about being in and accurately describing it doesn't mean you physically experience "THE" nothingness..., that's why that statement was used regardless, it's not a contradiction no matter how hard you try to make it out to be a contradiction.

Point.

What is the point of this silliness? Things can be inside the root.

Yes we agree things can be inside the root, but they return to being "nothing".

No one had a problem with it until it was an antifeat for Tier 0, why do we have a problem with it now? Why are we quoting scenes where it happens for evidence and then simultaneously writing headcanon to justify it not being what it clearly is? Yet I'm the one being accused of bad faith? No, I don't accept that

Can you honestly just provide counter arguments..

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Stop for a second. This is a scan of the character who is the Root in a scene describing the root, where there is someone else present.

Brother you realize this is the same character saying they were both dreaming???!! Are we writing a new Canon of Fate/Grand order written by deagonx whereby Saber Ryougi just says "this is the Swirl of the root, you are definitely not dreaming this is real Ritsuka so am I?!!"

 

[Deagonx]

Can you honestly just provide counter arguments..

I did, and you completely failed to address them. I pointed out the massive contradictions in your stance and your response was "take it up with the source material" at which point you entirely misquoted the source material.

Brother you realize this is the same character saying they were both dreaming???!! Are we writing a new Canon of Fate/Grand order written by deagonx whereby Saber Ryougi just says "this is the Swirl of the root, you are definitely not dreaming this is real Ritsuka so am I?!!"

Take it up with the source material not me, the omniscient character explains how they're both dreaming, but that doesn't mean what they dream about would automatically be misdefined.

Shiki never says she's dreaming, she says she's asleep. However, she actually asks Ritsuka if he's dreaming.

???	If you're dreaming, go back to where you came from.
???	This is a place without boundaries. You have a name, so you shouldn't be here.

Shiki then says that Ritsuka has a name, so he shouldn't be in the place without boundaries.
Shiki never said "you shouldn't dream about that place without boundaries that we're both dreaming about."

It's very direct. You are contradicting the text. Shiki says he's there and shouldn't be. You're saying he's not, he's in some third unmentioned dream world despite Shiki saying he's in the place without boundaries, AKA the Root.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

It's very direct. You are contradicting the text. Shiki says he's there and shouldn't be. You're saying he's not, he's in some third unmentioned dream world despite Shiki saying he's in the place without boundaries, AKA the Root.

This entire point doesnt really denounce it being a dream. You're saying them dreaming about X would mean that their dream about X is some third unmentioned realm, when that was never the point of what is being argued. The point that was argued is that them dreaming about something neither means that they're actually there, nor misdefining what it is, not that the said dream has some level of weight in reality. You're misrepresenting his argument, and then claim some form of superiority by addressing an argument you imagined for yourself to address

 

[Deagonx]

To further belabor the point:

Shiki:

Oh my. For a guest to arrive here... Is this some kind of mistake?​

If you're dreaming, go back to where you came from.​

This is a place without boundaries.​

You have a name, so you shouldn't be here.​

Ritsuka:

I didn't come here because I wanted to...​

Shiki:

You didn't want to be here? In that case... Hehe, sorry.​

Looks like our connection was made from this side.​

​

Shiki and Ritsuka are "here." What do we know about "here?" Ritsuka is a guest that arrived there. He has a name, so he shouldn't be here. He didn't come here because he wanted to.

The idea is that (a) "the place without boundaries" isn't describing "here", which is a complete nonsense reading of the text. Or (b) Despite Shiki's statements, neither of them are actually there despite Shiki's repeated statements that they are. Shiki never says they are dreaming about it. She says they are there. You're inventing this "dreaming about" notion in spite of the source material because the text as written creates a serious problem for you. Ritsuka travelled to the Root in his sleep, how did he accomplish that? The root itself (shiki) made a connection for him to arrive there.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

The idea is that (a) "the place without boundaries" isn't describing "here", which is a complete nonsense reading of the text. Or (b) Despite Shiki's statements, neither of them are actually there despite Shiki's repeated statements that they are. Shiki never says they are dreaming about it. She says they are there. You're inventing this "dreaming about" notion in spite of the source material because the text as written creates a serious problem for you. Ritsuka travelled to the Root in his sleep, how did he accomplish that? The root itself (shiki) made a connection for him to arrive there.

You seem to be driving home the idea that there is a contradiction when 2 different truths can co-exist

Idea A: Nobody is arguing this.
Idea B: I will have to draw an analogy, because you seem to have issues interpreting what you read correctly unless its dumbed down. If I am dreaming about my house, then I am in my house in the dream. I am not LITERALLY in my house, but it doesnt also mean that I am misrepresenting certain properties of the house I have awareness of in that dream. So the fact that I am "here" referring to my house, me identifying certain properties of my house, and me dreaming can all co-exist as a fact. You're creating false conflict when there is none, and then proceed to contradict your own scan by saying that Shiki established a connection for Ritsuka to come to the root

 

[Deagonx]

Nothing in the text suggests that Ritsuka and Shiki are merely dreaming about the Root. We're talking about a character who is explicitly said to be the Root and to have spent two years there in a coma. The controversy of Ritsuka's presence is attributed to the fact that they're in the Root even though he has a name.

Rewriting this to mean something like "well actually they were in a dream together not the Root, even though the omniscient being who is the root said they were in the root" is not justified by anything said.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

Nothing in the text suggests that Ritsuka and Shiki are merely dreaming about the Root. We're talking about a character who is explicitly said to be the Root and to have spent two years there in a coma. The controversy of Ritsuka's presence is attributed to the fact that they're in the Root even though he has a name.

Rewriting this to mean something like "well actually they were in a dream together not the Root, even though the omniscient being who is the root said they were in the root" is not justified by anything said.

You do realize that they blatantly state that its a dream
https://gyazo.com/8d39946fd179dbffe2624029a960fa6d

I dont understand how difficult a basic inference can even be. We know that they're dreaming in that instance, and that Ritsuka, a normal human, is there, despite repeated statements that if anyone touches the root, they get erased. So obviously, there is some unretained properties in the root shown in the scene, and the root we get elaborated on outside of the sequence. Now, the sequence is blatantly a dream, so the root that they're seeing is also a dream because there is an obvious contradiction to it being real. And I already explained how you posing that there is a contradiction to it being a dream is false, since all truths you've pointed out can freely co-exist.

 

[Deagonx]

You do realize that they blatantly state that its a dream

Ritsuka is dreaming. Shiki literally is the Root, she drifted in the Root during her coma. The place she is describing is not a dream world, that is just where she is when she is asleep. Or rather, that is what she is. Ritsuka joining her there is very straightforward.

I dont understand how difficult a basic inference can even be. We know that they're dreaming in that instance, and that Ritsuka, a normal human, is there, despite repeated statements that if anyone touches the root, they get erased.

Shiki says the connection that allowed Ritsuka to show up there came from her side. Shiki wields the power of the Root, she can decide not to erase someone.

It's very direct about the fact that Ritsuka isn't normally supposed to be there. Shiki never says they're in some dream world imitating the Root, she says they're in the root. Again, I'm unpersuaded by these attempts to edit the text.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

Ritsuka is dreaming. Shiki literally is the Root, she drifted in the Root during her coma. The place she is describing is not a dream world, that is just where she is when she is asleep. Or rather, that is what she is. Ritsuka joining her there is very straightforward.

Alright so you agree its a dream sequence, but then go on to contradict it by saying that it's still real. Im convinced you dont know what a dream is, could you define it for me? Because as I said, it being a dream, them describing the root, and Ritsuka being in the root during the dream do not inherently clash as truths. You're extrapolating something that happens in a person's head to something happening in reality when it breaks pre-established rules of the franchize and contradicts the wording used for the sake of clinging to a sinking ship

Shiki says the connection that allowed Ritsuka to show up there came from her side. Shiki wields the power of the Root, she can decide not to erase someone.

It's very direct about the fact that Ritsuka isn't normally supposed to be there. Shiki never says they're in some dream world imitating the Root, she says they're in the root. Again, I'm unpersuaded by these attempts to edit the text.

Are we still in "Deagon's fanfiction" territory? Because from what I can gather so far thats not the sequence of events that takes place. Shiki does not "call" or "establish a connection" for Ritsuka to arrive
Ritsuka Arrives, doesnt ger erased>Shiki greets him and is suprised someone can be there, because an individual would get erased(obviously if you invited someone to your house, you wouldnt be suprised at their arrival. Same thing with Root conditioning everything that happens, if Ritsuka actually went to the root, it'd be intentional and there wouldnt be a suprise)>She sends him on his way.

Now, we have 2 pieces of information that clash, and we have an easy explanation that would resolve the contradiction and is implied by the source material. we also have an extrapolation that you made is not supported by the scene in the slightest, on the contrary its contradicted, and then we have the notion that one of those 2 pieces of info is contradictory. I have genuinely no idea why you're so stubborn about going with the interpritation that doesnt make sense with the scene itself, over a simpler interpritation that would resolve all problems.

 

[Deagonx]

Are we still in "Deagon's fanfiction" territory? Because from what I can gather so far thats not the sequence of events that takes place. Shiki does not "call" or "establish a connection" for Ritsuka to arrive

Shiki:

You didn't want to be here? In that case... Hehe, sorry.​

Looks like our connection was made from this side. Let me apologize while I can, Fujimaru.​

​

Right. Once again, I'm not persuaded by the attempts to pretend this didn't actually happen or that this wasn't actually Shiki. The text is very clear that Ritsuka comes to the root during his dream and meets Shiki, who is surprised to seem him there, and says he's not supposed to be in the Root because he has a name. She ecnourages him tog o back from where he came from, and when Ritsuka indicates that he didn't intend to end up in the Root, Shiki realizes that the connection was actually made on her side, and that she too is asleep and is unaware of whats going on outside the Root.

You are free to draw up more convoluted explanations meant to ignore this, and you can come up with another one to explain away this:

This place is dark, and the floor is pitch black.
When I realized that the only thing around me was the darkness, I accepted the fact that I was dead.
I'm floating in a sea with no light or sound. Naked, without anything to cover her, the human being called Ryougi Shiki is sinking into the depths.
There's no light here. No, I suspect I never fell in the first place.
Since there's nothing here.
It's not just that there's no light, there isn't even any darkness. Since there is nothing here nothing is visible. There is no meaning to the concept of falling.
Inside the 「　　」within which even form is meaningless, just my body keeps sinking. The naked me, I'm a poisonous shade which makes me want to turn my eyes away. Because everything 「here」 bears such a poisonous aura.
"--- This is death."
Even the sound of my muttering seems like a dream.

Then, I observe something like "time". Time has no meaning inside「　　」, but I become able to observe it.
As naturally as flowing water, as grossly as putrefaction, I am just marking time.
There is nothing here.
Even if I keep continuously looking in the distance, I can't see anything.
Even if I keep waiting continuously for something, I can't see anything.
It's very nice and peaceful.
No --- Since nothing has meaning, just 「being」here makes everything perfect.
This is death.
The world which only the dead can reach. The world which the living cannot see.
But, I'm still alive ---.
I thought I would lose my mind.

For two years I sat there in the midst of the concept called "death". Rather then observation, it was closer to the struggle of battle.

And this:

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

The fact of the matter is, it just isn't going to matter how many times in the source material someone is directly stated to be inside the Root. You will find some reason to pretend it means something other than that, for the simple reason that them being inside the Root would mean we can't give it Tier 0.

 

[Chaotic_Existentialist]

Shiki:

You didn't want to be here? In that case... Hehe, sorry.​

Looks like our connection was made from this side. Let me apologize while I can, Fujimaru.​

​

Right. Once again, I'm not persuaded by the attempts to pretend this didn't actually happen or that this wasn't actually Shiki. The text is very clear that Ritsuka comes to the root during his dream and meets Shiki, who is surprised to seem him there, and says he's not supposed to be in the Root because he has a name.

which we know is otherwise impossible. You're still yet to define what a dream is, or explain any other point I brought up. But i guess ignoring points that dont work for you is your thing, so i'll do it for you.
A dream is just that, an image the mind makes up in a state of sleep, now what is it not? Reality. So you're simply appealing to an interpritation that goes against the wording of the scene, nothing more

You are free to draw up more convoluted explanations meant to ignore this, and you can come up with another one to explain away this:


And this:

I do wonder if a being that has oneness with a reality would be at one with that reality

You will find some reason to pretend it means something other than that, for the simple reason that them being inside the Root would mean we can't give it Tier 0.

You do understand that things being inside of a tier 0 reality doesnt inherently mean its not tier 0 right? All potentialities are emanated from a tier 0 reality. Same goes for a tier 0 reality being all encompassing. There isnt an inherent contradiction with tier 0 being a container for something otherwise the tier's nature is self defeating. you're just arguing to argue

Either way, ill either reply to whatever you yap later when i wake up or js wait for toxic if he wakes up earlier, its 5 am for me

 

[Deagonx]

A dream is just that, an image the mind makes up in a state of sleep, now what is it not?

This is a fictional universe where dreams and magic are related. The idea that Ritsuka didn't actually meet Shiki, he just happened to dream about someone he'd never met, is very silly. That's clearly not what is happening in this scene. It is, again, an ad-hoc attempt to explain away a clear contradiction.

You do understand that things being inside of a tier 0 reality doesnt inherently mean its not tier 0 right?

Whew lad.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Gng, i wasnt even finished brushing ny teeth and you already posted a reply. Do something more fun with your life than to reply in 10 mins

@Chaotic_Existentialist tone it down with the comments. There's a limit to the "frustrating" excuse. Focus on the arguments, not the person.

 

[Firestorm808]

If I'm understanding the current topic of discussion, we are looking at one of the requirements for Primacy.

Does Tier 0 allow a distinct identity (in this case Shiki) to exist within an alleged Tier 0?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Alright, back. Hopefully with a cooler head this time around.

So, looking over this now, I'll say the whole "dream" argument seems really silly. I think it's best to cut through the fat and pry into the crux of the matter here:

So, the big question is: Is being inside of the Root an anti-feat for it being Tier 0? Everything else seems to frankly be set-dressing at best, so I don't think the "It's a dream!" vs "It's not just a dream!" discussions are very productive on the whole. so: The relevant deal is basically that people are shown being "inside" the Root, which, the opposition's argument goes, indicates differentiation within it, and therefore disqualifies it as Tier 0.

Yeah, so, first thing: Like I said before, if you interpret the "Inside the Root" thing at complete face value, then the Root is a spatial object, full stop. I want to remind you lot that aspatial things are already not things that you can be "inside" in a straightforward sense, because "Inside"ness is a spatial concept. Aspatial things don't and can't contain other things in the way an eggshell contains an egg yolk. So, if we are to accept that the Root is aspatial, then any depiction of it as this literal void-place that you float around inside is necessarily not literal. It's one or the other.

If we want to accept these depictions in the most literal, plain sense, then the Root is physical, and this whole debate is dust. If we affirm the Root is non-physical, then we reject the literality of these scenes and say that they were "inside" the Root in a metaphysical, abstract sense. It's as simple as that. And if the latter approach is deemed valid, then the "Can't be inside a Tier 0" point pretty much loses all its force.

I expect this to be complemented using the whole "Blow a role to the Root," deal, but the same line of thinking applies to that as well. "Blowing a hole" to even a basic aspatial "place" is already not really a matter of blowing a hole through a room's wall to get to the room next door. So, yeah.

 

[Agnaa]

This is just a pretty obvious case of poisoning of the well. So, chill out with that.

I will delete all the comments going off-rails over this post, but I speak on behalf of all them when I say: Don't pull this shit again. I don't really care if the supporters are changing their minds because of the standards or not. Either way, the substance of the arguments on both sides is not changed in the slightest, so starting this pointless mudslinging is completely unnecessary and, furthermore, unbecoming even of someone in your position. Knock it off.

I disagree, and don't think he should've been chided for that.

If people are deferring to verse experts on matters of what are reasonable interpretations of events in the text, knowing whether that's a position they've consistently held (and why their view changed, if not) is important.

Although, it would of course be better if everyone evaluating things just went off presented parts of the text itself, rather than judging things based on the supporters' vibes.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Although, it would of course be better if everyone evaluating things just went off presented parts of the text itself, rather than judging things based on the supporters' vibes.

That's the primary thing that I care about. Most of us are outsiders to the verse who have never seen most of these things, so it doesn't matter what the intent of the supporters is, so long as they are not being deceitful. That post there serves nothing to the debate in that regard.

 

[Deagonx]

if you interpret the "Inside the Root" thing at complete face value, then the Root is a spatial object, full stop

If we want to accept these depictions in the most literal, plain sense, then the Root is physical, and this whole debate is dust. If we affirm the Root is non-physical, then we reject the literality of these scenes and say that they were "inside" the Root in a metaphysical, abstract sense. It's as simple as that. And if the latter approach is deemed valid, then the "Can't be inside a Tier 0" point pretty much loses all its force.

I don't see any issue with the basic premise of a non-physical soul being inside a non-physical abyss/void like the Root. The same way there shouldn't be an issue with seeing souls as "inside" an ethereal Heaven.

This would suggest that one can never be inside of a metaphysical realm, which doesn't seem like a plausible position.

I expect this to be complemented using the whole "Blow a role to the Root," deal, but the same line of thinking applies to that as well. "Blowing a hole" to even a basic aspatial "place" is already not really a matter of blowing a hole through a room's wall to get to the room next door. So, yeah.

When opening that hole to the Root is said to reward that person with large quantities of unused mana on the other side, that would seem to present an issue unless we find a creative interpretation to work around it, like imagining that even though this unused mana is on the "other side" which is described as the Root, it's actually just... a different area or section or something that isn't actually part of the Root, it just so happens that the ritual characteristically known for opening a path to reach the Root serves this unrelated purpose. Which, again, I see no reason to do this. It is no great loss to simply say the Root can -- in exceptional circumstances -- literally have distinct souls or minds within it or that it may contain an infinite amount of magical energy that can be dispensed upon piercing the dimensional wall between it and the normal world.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't see any issue with the basic premise of a non-physical soul being inside a non-physical abyss/void like the Root. The same way there shouldn't be an issue with seeing souls as "inside" an ethereal Heaven.

This would suggest that one can never be inside of a metaphysical realm, which doesn't seem like a plausible position.

Yes, you can't be inside an aspatial realm in any conventional sense. At best, the aspatial realm would bear some abstract "inclusion" upon you. And a Tier 0 bearing such an inclusion is not an issue. (Reminder that I talk about Tier 0s "encompassing" things all the time, even though encompassing is a spatial term, too)

The point is: If you already admit that the Root is non-spatial, then you already working with an unconventional sense of "Inside the Root." So I don't believe arguments to that effect mean much, especially if you are going to say that everything else is "an ad-hoc explanation" and etc. Same goes for the second point in that post.

 

[Agnaa]

Same goes for the second point in that post.

I haven't read much of the thread, but while I see where you're coming from for the first point, I don't see it at all for the second.

Being able to do something in relation to a tier 0 entity, and receiving something as a consequence of that, should be impossible, as that entails a change. It doesn't matter whether a spatial allegory was used when describing this.

Either the claim would be false in some regard (it's not actually interacting with the Root) or the Root would be mutable (or it would be creating something in reaction to an action performed for it), contradicting tier 0.

 

[Mageman460]

The process, as described in Fate/Stay Night, is that the Greater Grail sends the souls of Servants back and keeps the hole created by their return open, and this hole allows a path toward the Root, and this path happens to have a large amount of Mana.
This would only be the first step in the far-off journey to the Root, and isn't enough to actually lead inside the Root.

Note that the same hole allows a path for the summoned Servants to return to the Throne of Heroes, and this in no way implies that the Throne of Heroes gets punctured.

Ultima gave me permission. Real quick, the "other side" is more likely the Reverse Side of the World and not the Root. As shown by the scans from Shadow above. Rin and Illya talk about how the Greater Grail "opening a hole" is merely the first step.

https://fatestaynight.vnovel.org/hf/15th-day/12#page67

 

[Firestorm808]

Does Tier 0 allow a distinct identity (in this case Shiki) to exist within an alleged Tier 0?

Alright, back. Hopefully with a cooler head this time around.

So, looking over this now, I'll say the whole "dream" argument seems really silly. I think it's best to cut through the fat and pry into the crux of the matter here:

So, the big question is: Is being inside of the Root an anti-feat for it being Tier 0? Everything else seems to frankly be set-dressing at best, so I don't think the "It's a dream!" vs "It's not just a dream!" discussions are very productive on the whole. so: The relevant deal is basically that people are shown being "inside" the Root, which, the opposition's argument goes, indicates differentiation within it, and therefore disqualifies it as Tier 0.

Yeah, so, first thing: Like I said before, if you interpret the "Inside the Root" thing at complete face value, then the Root is a spatial object, full stop. I want to remind you lot that aspatial things are already not things that you can be "inside" in a straightforward sense, because "Inside"ness is a spatial concept. Aspatial things don't and can't contain other things in the way an eggshell contains an egg yolk. So, if we are to accept that the Root is aspatial, then any depiction of it as this literal void-place that you float around inside is necessarily not literal. It's one or the other.

If we want to accept these depictions in the most literal, plain sense, then the Root is physical, and this whole debate is dust. If we affirm the Root is non-physical, then we reject the literality of these scenes and say that they were "inside" the Root in a metaphysical, abstract sense. It's as simple as that. And if the latter approach is deemed valid, then the "Can't be inside a Tier 0" point pretty much loses all its force.

I expect this to be complemented using the whole "Blow a role to the Root," deal, but the same line of thinking applies to that as well. "Blowing a hole" to even a basic aspatial "place" is already not really a matter of blowing a hole through a room's wall to get to the room next door. So, yeah.

So... do I take that as a no?

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, you can't be inside an aspatial realm in any conventional sense. At best, the aspatial realm would bear some abstract "inclusion" upon you. And a Tier 0 bearing such an inclusion is not an issue. (Reminder that I talk about Tier 0s "encompassing" things all the time, even though encompassing is a spatial term, too)

The point is: If you already admit that the Root is non-spatial, then you already working with an unconventional sense of "Inside the Root." So I don't believe arguments to that effect mean much, especially if you are going to say that everything else is "an ad-hoc explanation" and etc. Same goes for the second point in that post.

This would appear to greatly contradict several points made on the Omnipotence page. For anything to be literally "encompassed by" the Monad, it would need to be identical to the Monad itself. It's clear that Shiki is not fully identical to the Root. There is an introduction of differentiation to the Root.

​

A Tier 0 is utterly transcendent over any system of differences, divisions and inequalities​

However, it is possible to "become" Tier 0 in cosmologies where all beings are simply identical to the already-existing Tier 0 at the core (Usually, due to any reality apart from it being ultimately illusory). In such cases, it would not be an ordinary apotheosis so much as a "shedding" of all individuating characteristics, and therefore a return to the source.​

​

A Tier 0 is not a blob of some mysterious energy, nor a pool of cosmic "stuff" in which all things are gathered and melted together.​

We know that when Shiki was in her coma, some part of herself was literally inside the Root. This point is made three separate times in the KnK novels, and I don't see any meaningful basis for rejecting it as written. The fact that some of the terminology is seemingly spatial means very little and isn't a basis for disregarding the entire thing whole cloth, because that is just a staple of fiction.

This place is dark, and the floor is pitch black.
When I realized that the only thing around me was the darkness, I accepted the fact that I was dead.
I'm floating in a sea with no light or sound. Naked, without anything to cover her, the human being called Ryougi Shiki is sinking into the depths.
There's no light here. No, I suspect I never fell in the first place.
Since there's nothing here.
It's not just that there's no light, there isn't even any darkness. Since there is nothing here nothing is visible. There is no meaning to the concept of falling.
Inside the 「　　」within which even form is meaningless, just my body keeps sinking. The naked me, I'm a poisonous shade which makes me want to turn my eyes away. Because everything 「here」 bears such a poisonous aura.
"--- This is death."
Even the sound of my muttering seems like a dream.

◇

Then, I observe something like "time". Time has no meaning inside「　　」, but I become able to observe it.
As naturally as flowing water, as grossly as putrefaction, I am just marking time.
There is nothing here.
Even if I keep continuously looking in the distance, I can't see anything.
Even if I keep waiting continuously for something, I can't see anything.
It's very nice and peaceful.
No --- Since nothing has meaning, just 「being」here makes everything perfect.
This is death.
The world which only the dead can reach. The world which the living cannot see.
But, I'm still alive ---.
I thought I would lose my mind.
For two years I sat there in the midst of the concept called "death". Rather then observation, it was closer to the struggle of battle.

I don't want that. That kind of world, I never want to see it again.
A world where nothing exists. While I was 「there」, I was content and at peace.

--- I can't believe it now. Remembering that world after I woke up I thought about it and there couldn't be anything more pathetic than that world. That darkness, even if it was just a nightmare I dreamt up during my sleep --- I can't stand the thought of falling into that place again.

More than simply seeing, she felt death.

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

The narration is very clear. The argument was attempted that the phrase "even if it was just a nightmare I dreamt up during my sleep" means that this sequence was nothing more than a dream, but the wording is clear that at this point Shiki isn't sure yet if it was real. Every single other statement places her directly there, even going as far as to say she did more than simply seeing it.

 

[Deagonx]

Ultima gave me permission. Real quick, the "other side" is more likely the Reverse Side of the World and not the Root. As shown by the scans from Shadow above. Rin and Illya talk about how the Greater Grail "opening a hole" is merely the first step.

The sequence in which this is described really doesn't allow for that interpretation. In fact, it kind of flies in the face of every description of the point of the whole event the story is centered around.

"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the Root. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"
"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall.

The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach."
"Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the Root is too far."
"But―――the one who obtains the Holy Grail gains access to unlimited magical energy.
The other side has large quantities of unused mana unlike anything seen on this side. For an ordinary magus, it's nothing short of a miracle."

What the three families aim for is to open a gate using the complete Holy Grail.
You can think of the complete Holy Grail as a gate to connect this world to a world where every wish comes true."
"...Hold on. Then the Holy Grail is..."
"Yes. The goal of every magus is to reach the Root.
But I am not interested in such a thing. The Einzberns only thought for the completion of the Holy Grail. Tohsaka is the only family of magi that is still aiming for the Root."
"...Anyway. The Holy Grail is a gate that connects to the wish machine. "

Magic, True Magic, isn't just some manuscript derived from the Swirl of the Root like magecraft is, but something that comes directly from the Root itself."
"As for the Swirl of the Root, well... The simplest way I can describe it so you'll understand is to compare it to the sun. The Sun is really far away, and has been there from the beginning as far as we're concerned. Without it, you and I wouldn't be able to live."

"Magecraft merely lets us take advantage of the Sun's benefits, so to speak. Magecraft is all about imitating or paying for natural phenomena. We can use it to study, practice, and recreate Mystics-mysteries-but it can never truly create them. Actually, no matter how much you learn, you eventually hit a wall. It's like a limiter that human knowledge can never overcome."

"And beyond that wall is where Magic, the Sun itself, exists. To attain it means to go where no one can go, and awaken miracles no one could possibly reproduce. A technique to make things happen that humanity could never hope to accomplish with any amount of time or resources... that's True Magic."

"It's about overcoming that dimensional wall-like, running until you reach the end where you'll find a world with completely different rules from ours. That's the only way you can, well, learn it."

"I told you before that magecraft has no limits, right? Well I meant that it has no limits within the scope of human knowledge. Meanwhile, Magic has lots of limits; as in, it can only do one thing, and one thing alone. Makes sense, right? I mean, we're talking about unique, rule-breaking concepts and mechanisms that exist outside the boundaries of the very universe."

The second is from Mahoyo, providing further context to what exactly the wall is. You make the hole explicitly for the purpose of reaching the Root.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I haven't read much of the thread, but while I see where you're coming from for the first point, I don't see it at all for the second.

Being able to do something in relation to a tier 0 entity, and receiving something as a consequence of that, should be impossible, as that entails a change. It doesn't matter whether a spatial allegory was used when describing this.

Either the claim would be false in some regard (it's not actually interacting with the Root) or the Root would be mutable (or it would be creating something in reaction to an action performed for it), contradicting tier 0.

Yeah, the rest of this gets into an earlier part of the debate that unfortunately never got to develop. From where I stand, it seems to me that Nasuverse is basically a cosmology where the Root is just "already there," underlying everything, and "returning to the Root" is essentially a matter less of reaching somewhere else, and more a matter of de-individuating yourself. Essentially erasing all your qualities to reveal the Root underneath. In which case, "reaching the Root" is not really an issue, since you are not doing anything to the Root, but to yourself.

As it stands, Deagon opposes this.

So... do I take that as a no?

In the normal, spatial sense, the answer is "No, it can't." If this containment isn't that, but just some sort of vague abstract inclusion, as said prior, then, yes, it can.

This would appear to greatly contradict several points made on the Omnipotence page. For anything to be literally "encompassed by" the Monad, it would need to be identical to the Monad itself. It's clear that Shiki is not fully identical to the Root. There is an introduction of differentiation to the Root.

​

A Tier 0 is utterly transcendent over any system of differences, divisions and inequalities​

However, it is possible to "become" Tier 0 in cosmologies where all beings are simply identical to the already-existing Tier 0 at the core (Usually, due to any reality apart from it being ultimately illusory). In such cases, it would not be an ordinary apotheosis so much as a "shedding" of all individuating characteristics, and therefore a return to the source.​

​

A Tier 0 is not a blob of some mysterious energy, nor a pool of cosmic "stuff" in which all things are gathered and melted together.​

We know that when Shiki was in her coma, some part of herself was literally inside the Root. This point is made three separate times in the KnK novels, and I don't see any meaningful basis for rejecting it as written. The fact that some of the terminology is seemingly spatial means very little and isn't a basis for disregarding the entire thing whole cloth, because that is just a staple of fiction.




The narration is very clear. The argument was attempted that the phrase "even if it was just a nightmare I dreamt up during my sleep" means that this sequence was nothing more than a dream, but the wording is clear that at this point Shiki isn't sure yet if it was real. Every single other statement places her directly there, even going as far as to say she did more than simply seeing it.

The point being made is exactly that an "encompassment" in any normal sense isn't possible with Tier 0, so this doesn't really contradict anything, no.

I believe the point would be clearer if I put it like this: What exactly does it mean to be "in the Root?" It's not any kind of normal containment that we can imagine, solely by virtue of the thing being non-physical and non-spatial. So what does this containment mean? This, to me, seems to be a question with no clear answer in your reading of the text, so it makes no sense to draw out the properties of it as a way to disprove anything. At least, not without inadvertently seeing the Root as having space of some kind.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, the rest of this gets into an earlier part of the debate that unfortunately never got to develop. From where I stand, it seems to me that Nasuverse is basically a cosmology where the Root is just "already there," underlying everything, and "returning to the Root" is essentially a matter less of reaching somewhere else, and more a matter of de-individuating yourself. Essentially erasing all your qualities to reveal the Root underneath. In which case, "reaching the Root" is not really an issue, since you are not doing anything to the Root, but to yourself.

As it stands, Deagon opposes this.

That doesn't seem relevant to the exact topic thread currently being touched (making a hole to the Root, causing mana to leak out), but it is something I have a thought on.

Yes, you can't be inside an aspatial realm in any conventional sense. At best, the aspatial realm would bear some abstract "inclusion" upon you. And a Tier 0 bearing such an inclusion is not an issue. (Reminder that I talk about Tier 0s "encompassing" things all the time, even though encompassing is a spatial term, too.

It shouldn't actually be possible to go from not being encompassed by a Tier 0, to being encompassed by a Tier 0, unless such a thing happens entirely and is due to a realisation rather than an actual change. It shouldn't even be possible to go from being less encompassed to being more encompassed, or for some place/object to be more encompassed than another (even in an unchanging manner).

This isn't solely because a Tier 0 can't be changed, but more because a Tier 0 can't have different degrees of similarity to different entities, as that involves a relation of qualities which is inapplicable.

In the same way that you can't get closer to a being beyond dimensions by moving within space; there is no spatial relation that would be greater in some areas and lesser in others. Nothing would have its qualities more or less akin to a Tier 0 than anything else.

And so, I do still think this inclusion is an issue, since it implies a relation in qualities that shouldn't exist.

And in case you'd also want me to answer this

The point being made is exactly that an "encompassment" in any normal sense isn't possible with Tier 0, so this doesn't really contradict anything, no.

I believe the point would be clearer if I put it like this: What exactly does it mean to be "in the Root?" It's not any kind of normal containment that we can imagine, solely by virtue of the thing being non-physical and non-spatial. So what does this containment mean? This, to me, seems to be a question with no clear answer in your reading of the text, so it makes no sense to draw out the properties of it as a way to disprove anything. At least, not without inadvertently seeing the Root as having space of some kind.

I'd just say it's a matter of having a certain quality.

 

[Deagonx]

The point being made is exactly that an "encompassment" in any normal sense isn't possible with Tier 0, so this doesn't really contradict anything, no.

This is not what the page says. The page goes to great lengths to say that encompassment of something that is not the monad, not merely in "any normal sense" but rather in any conceivable sense whatsoever shouldn't be possible. Hence "utterly transcendent over any system of differences, divisions, and inequalities." If the page had simply said "you can't be within it in a spatial sense, but other senses are fine" we'd be having a very different conversation. Instead it says:

Consequently, a character of such a nature is a being that has no borders, no delimitations and no demarcations to its existence whatsoever. As it transcends particularity and specification, it transcends the whole notion of "This, not that" and "That, not this."

By nature, a Tier 0 does not exist in dimensional space, not being circumscribed by any sort of numerical coordinate, nor taking up any sort of volume. Neither, for the matter, is it in a higher "meta-space," inasmuch as this still entails some notion (However disanalogous) of being in a specific location, apart from somewhere else, and thus a constricting particularity which must be transcended.

I believe the point would be clearer if I put it like this: What exactly does it mean to be "in the Root?" It's not any kind of normal containment that we can imagine, solely by virtue of the thing being non-physical and non-spatial. So what does this containment mean? This, to me, seems to be a question with no clear answer in your reading of the text

The lack of a clear answer doesn't have to do with my reading of the text, but with the innate lack of clarity around the concept of non-physical containment. You could just as well ask what it means to be in DC's Nil, or within Limbo, both of which are aspatial.
The way this discussion is progressing would be akin to if Limbo were purported to be a monad, an counter-argument was made on the basis of the multiple distinct people inside this realm, and then the counter-counter-argument is a demand for an explanation of the mechanisms of Limbo "containing" these people.

I don't think that's really an appropriate or relevant request. It is just a fact that ethereal realms can contain things and nearly always do, and that often these realms are described in terms which are seemingly spatial. This does not make it any less of an anti-feat. Unless you really intend to take this so far that your stance is that only spatiality represents genuine differentiation.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Ultima gave me permission. Real quick, the "other side" is more likely the Reverse Side of the World and not the Root. As shown by the scans from Shadow above. Rin and Illya talk about how the Greater Grail "opening a hole" is merely the first step.

This has been repeated, deagon is not even responding to anything, he's just repeating himself like it gives credence to his arguments instead of responding.

Shiki then says that Ritsuka has a name, so he shouldn't be in the place without boundaries.
Shiki never said "you shouldn't dream about that place without boundaries that we're both dreaming about."

It's very direct. You are contradicting the text. Shiki says he's there and shouldn't be. You're saying he's not, he's in some third unmentioned dream world despite Shiki saying he's in the place without boundaries, AKA the Root.

Readmore and argue less, Oh lord!!! we invented her saying the entire part where she meets Ritsuka is a dream and her saying "the night is over this dream is about to end", how evil of us soo bad faith!!

The fact of the matter is, it just isn't going to matter how many times in the source material someone is directly stated to be inside the Root. You will find some reason to pretend it means something other than that, for the simple reason that them being inside the Root would mean we can't give it Tier 0.

Source? Ignoring context+trust me bro.

Shiki Ryogi herself said that 'floating' she experienced was a nightmare she dreamt up, even while acknowledging that her eyes with supernatural abilities are more connected to the Root as a result.

"Are my eyes --- going to recover soon?" I don't want that. That kind of world, I never want to see it again. A world where nothing exists. While I was 「there」, I was content and at peace. --- I can't believe it now. Remembering that world after I woke up I thought about it and there couldn't be anything more pathetic than that world. That darkness, even if it was just a nightmare I dreamt up during my sleep --- I can't stand the thought of falling into that place again. And, these two eyes of mine that are connected to that place.

Shiki Ryogi's soul didn't leave her body and travel to the Root, before returning a couple of years later. Her very Origin is defined by "Emptiness" despite having multiple personalities, due to her Origin, being in a coma and looking inward caused her to gaze into the Root.

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death. —All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ". Yes, indeed. If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation. —That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." —But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.

Source? context and the same character explaining how she was actually not physically in it.

The relevant deal is basically that people are shown being "inside" the Root, which, the opposition's argument goes, indicates differentiation within it, and therefore disqualifies it as Tier 0.

The origin is just the essence of everything, as it is something that is absolute and underlies particulars of the material world, the explanation we get for the origin of Emptiness is similar to the explanation we get of the Swirl of the root itself, as Shiki explains how because she was born with the origin of 「　」, she was something that which couldn't be said to have "intellect" nor "significance", because in essence she's just nothing.

She's the only known person to experience the return to nothingness without being absorbed by it, she herself distinguishes between merely having a connection to it by clarifying how "we are all connected to it" but "she's a part of it, but a part of true Emptiness is the same as the whole" because it's fundamentally indivisible.

I'd pay deagon to find me a point in time where somebody experienced the root in a physical sense, Ryougi was in a coma for years when she "floated" inside the swirl of the root, If we assume it is her soul, her soul is still emptiness.

Got permission to comment from Ultima.


Per Aoko:

1. No one survived contact with the Root. Not a single person in the entire world.
2. Contact with the Root = Instant Death.
3. Contact with the Root = Returning to the Root.
4. If any single person became God through contact with the Root, they became a dead person who got sucked into the Root after contact.

Do you disagree that any of these statements are factual?
If so, how many statements does your position require to discard?


Shiki Ryogi herself said that 'floating' she experienced was a nightmare she dreamt up, even while acknowledging that her eyes with supernatural abilities are more connected to the Root as a result.

"Are my eyes --- going to recover soon?" I don't want that. That kind of world, I never want to see it again. A world where nothing exists. While I was 「there」, I was content and at peace. --- I can't believe it now. Remembering that world after I woke up I thought about it and there couldn't be anything more pathetic than that world. That darkness, even if it was just a nightmare I dreamt up during my sleep --- I can't stand the thought of falling into that place again. And, these two eyes of mine that are connected to that place.

Shiki Ryogi's soul didn't leave her body and travel to the Root, before returning a couple of years later. Her very Origin is defined by "Emptiness" despite having multiple personalities, due to her Origin, being in a coma and looking inward caused her to gaze into the Root.

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death. —All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ". Yes, indeed. If nihil is her origin, then most likely she wills to bring all things to nought. Shiki is able to kill anything without exception, for that reason alone. The personality, Shiki, strives to negate. Why? Because that is the original pattern of her soul. The inclination to nihil, which ardently wishes the death of all creation. —That is Shiki's capability. Much like Asagami Fujino, she perceives a unique channel in which things unseen by others become visible. When she "looks" at them, she is seeing a glimpse of the architect's floor-plan for all reality. That is the "swirl of the Root." —But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.

Let's put the semantics of whether this 'counts as a real contact' on the side, and focus on the substance.
Your position basically have to argue that if someone had an abstract vision about being within X (ex. viewing darkness when darkness doesn't exist, sinking when the concept of form and falling are meaningless) then this disqualifies X from being a monad.


Hold up. Why are you using a plural?

Aoko explicitly clarified that she isn't talking about a group of gods, but a single big underlying force. If someone became God, they become that single big underlying force.

As Aoko previously explained, no single person returned after contact with the Root. Any God mentioned, including a hypothetical God exiting the Root to their world, is distinct from these persons.


There are several hypotheses were proposed on how knowledge about the Root got out.

From Aoko:

1. Maybe someone who became God returned, because being God is probably totally different than what we imagine.
2. Maybe God can't return to our world to begin with, who knows (and therefore the knowledge was sent out without God leaving).

From Soujyuro (mountain boy who admits he is confused and isn't making any sense):

1. Maybe the first person to become God felt lonely and wanted others to join them.
2. Maybe God had so much work to do and needed help.

Aoko is non-commital in her propositions, which don't conflict with Tier 0.
Soujyuro's are clearly presented from the prespective of someone unreliable who doesn't know what he is talking about. If you'd like to make the case that Soujyuro makes sense and what he proposed has the highest level of consistency with the entire body of evidence regarding the nature of the Root, feel free to do so.


Aoko is distinct from Soujyuro, and is considered more knowledgable than him.


How does the statement relate to the lore information highlighted by OP regarding the Root in order to contradict it?
A spiteful small part of Souren will probably end remaining in the world and cause great destruction. And?


The process, as described in Fate/Stay Night, is that the Greater Grail sends the souls of Servants back and keeps the hole created by their return open, and this hole allows a path toward the Root, and this path happens to have a large amount of Mana.
This would only be the first step in the far-off journey to the Root, and isn't enough to actually lead inside the Root.

Note that the same hole allows a path for the summoned Servants to return to the Throne of Heroes, and this in no way implies that the Throne of Heroes gets punctured.

Some say it has been centuries since the world needed Deagonx to respond to this.

This is it being impossible to touch and exist. If you touch it and you're returned back into the source of all things where everything and nothing exists at once, you have in fact, stopped existing.

The entire scene you're talking about though reads as follows

This is notably, not a very strong "oh yeah someone touched the root and came back", the entire scene is meant to be vague because its another theory. Aoko could be saying that the person in question went and made it back (just like a magician, which we see how that works), and never touched it, because notably, she never says this person went in.

Soujyuro then takes this and starts thinking how this could work, he wonders if that means someone touched it, became God and was lonely, or maybe needed help (Aoko is not the one who ponders this, mountain boy is), he even acknowledges that those who reach it can not return. He then comes to the conclusion that he can't make sense of it, which is because its meant to be illogical, its a theory to explain what many smarter mages than Aoko have outright said can't be explained.

When they say its the "Seat of God" Soujyuro also asks if she means gods like Shinto, to which she immediately differentiates it, noting that she's not talking about the gods that actually exist in the verse, but the supreme underlying force that predates everything that exists. This means when they're talking about becoming god, its the exact same as the images posted, what they actually mean is the person returns to the source, ceasing to exist on the spot in doing so, and in returning to the source, they are God, because the Root is God.

Note, Aoko also says right before this, that there's no proof its the Seat of God, this is to show us that, as I've said, this is a theory, not a definitive "yeah some unnamed person touched the Root and came back", which would go against literally everything said by anyone ever, if that ever happened, no one would feel any fear towards touching the Root, they'd all do it and not flee, and this person would be literally the most important person in the verse.

All in all, no, people can not touch the Root then just leave it, the literal passage you're using outright says they can not return, Aoko says no one ever made it back, we know that touching it makes you stop existing because we know what the Root is described as, and merging into that is you no longer existing. The entire passage is not meant to be a hyper literal "yeah this nobody touched the root but was fine and told us all about it" which is shown by the multiple explicit mentions of the fact that doing so is impossible, within that same exact scene.


The point is that this part isn't relevant because it doesn't disprove anything (I literally asked to verify this), I specifically chose to say it was irrelevant because the larger point was "you can touch and understand the Root", which the majority of your quotes didn't even begin to imply

You're reading something into the text that isn't there, which is contradicted by other information we're given. Someone went there and came back. Shiki floated there for years.


Far from imply, it says it directly:

To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. (How true magic is created)​

There's just one last thing to ask. What was it like touching the Root?"​

Revealing one's knowledge or impressions of the Root was strictly forbidden.​

The stuff from FSN wasn't irrelevant, they were their own points all their own that were very significant. The Greater Grail punches a hole directly to the Root like an unused mana piñata.

Source? gloss over his argument+trust me bro.

When opening that hole to the Root is said to reward that person with large quantities of unused mana on the other side, that would seem to present an issue unless we find a creative interpretation to work around it, like imagining that even though this unused mana is on the "other side" which is described as the Root, it's actually just... a different area or section or something that isn't actually part of the Root, it just so happens that the ritual characteristically known for opening a path to reach the Root serves this unrelated purpose. Which, again, I see no reason to do this. It is no great loss to simply say the Root can -- in exceptional circumstances -- literally have distinct souls or minds within it or that it may contain an infinite amount of magical energy that can be dispensed upon piercing the dimensional wall between it and the normal world.

This will be the last response I give, this is going no where.

You don't touch the root, you stand next to the root, "the other side" isn't the Swirl of the root, it's a reference to the "outside world"

Gate of skye is outside of the world.

Gate of Skye: The Gate to the Magical Realm Brimming with Death
Rank: A+
Classification: Anti-Army Noble Phantasm
Range: 2~50
Maximum Number of Targets: 200 people

Scáthach temporarily summons an enormous “Gate” that leads to a region located at the Outside of the World, the “Land of Shadows” – a magical realm and a foreign land that was severed from the World. It completely sucks up all living things that are within the effect’s range to the “Land of Shadows”, the domain under her rule. Those who fail a Magical Power Check and Luck Check will be sucked into the “Gate” and are instantly killed. People who are not approved by Scáthach for entry through the Gate will not be permitted to enter the “Land of Shadows” while they possess life as they currently are. Even if one successfully resists the suction, they would sustain great damage since their Magical Energy was rapidly drained.

the throne of heroes is outside of the world.

Birth of Heroic Spirits
It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief even if they didn't exist. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War, Hasan Sabaha was a hero that actually existed, and Herakles and Medusa are ones of legends. Also, Emiya and Artoria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world.　Those who have become Heroic Sｐirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.

The reverse side of the world has been called the other side of the world and so was the imaginary number of space, I guess they are all the Swirl of the root.

A case was given as to how it's not the Swirl of the root already and you still have yet to respond to that, nothing you sent explicitly talks about the root granting you mana from touching it, it says the mana is in the "other side" (of the world) which includes the pathway to the Swirl of the root, the Swirl of the root, the throne of heroes and the gate of Skye, I'd be glad to hear what made you come up with that interpretation.

When touching the root means you disappear, the fact that this is said by a person whose family has been dedicated to magic is insane work.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

You read the op, if you did then you already know why I said, "directly emanates from it", because everything flows from it magecraft happens to be a mediate emanation and true magic directly derives from the Swirl of the root hence it's an immediate emanation.

That aside, I don't understand why Tier 0 is being analyzed like it's as well defined as something from mathematics, it's rooted in mysticism which always has a lot of nuance to it, mysticism tends to use different manifestations of the same ultimate reality to explain certain information that can be known about the ultimate reality, just as the Akashic Records can be known, without necessarily denouncing the fact that it's fullness in essence is still fundamentally unknowable, the Akashic records are a part of the Swirl of the root, not the other way around so the Swirl of the root ought to be more fundamental than them.

It's a running theme in the world that nobody knows what the Swirl of the root is, even in the statements people try to use to contradict it the people who speak in the dialogues immediately reduce their statements to just being mere theories and rumors spread around by it. I think it should be fair to analyze statements depending on the logical consistency behind the statements themselves.

For example, Aoko says to touch it and understand it redefines the word "impossible" and proceeds to outline how nobody knows what happens to those who touch and even the hypothesis that it is where "God is" is something that has little to no proof. As for the Touko message for Araya, she says "he or may not retain his sense of self", the fact that she says "may" immediately outlines how even she doesn't know and it's just another hypothesis about the Swirl of the root, heck she's the same person who describe the Swirl of the root as "ultimate knowledge" or "perfect knowledge"

And immediately says because intellectual wisdom creates a standard like "perfect" or "ultimate" knowledge, it can't be said to be the Swirl of the root and describes what it is not rather than what it is as it implies the fact that the Swirl of the root would be reduced to being finite. Touko's explanation here aligns perfectly with Saber Ryougi (who's said to be omniscient btw even in fgo) saying the place doesn't have boundaries.


Which in turns aligns with how Kara no Kyoukai describes the distinction between Spurious infinity and something that has no limits which has already been covered in the OP. The Swirl of the root, is treated as a place "without end" and "without limits" that which can create "anything" as a result, it isn't just being beyond the material, it is just free from restrictions, where even definitions limit and make it finite, as Spurious infinity is defined by limits as explained by the OP, it is limited by its own definition that distinguishes it from being finite.


Whilst True Emptiness is a radical state of freedom, where dual distinctions like "infinity and finitude" are dissolved into a unity that is "without end", this is why the mystic eyes can cut through everything, because limits exist in everything including infinity. Ryougi Shiki has never physically touched the Swirl of the root whatsoever, she was still in a hospital bed, I'd be okay with saying her consciousness experienced it. But funny enough the only person who experienced the Swirl of the root, describes her experience in the most non informative way possible.

She says "it's dark" but immediately realizes how that description is inadequate and says "there's neither light nor darkness", she then says she was floating and falling within it but realizes even that description is inadequate as she says "I can't see anything, because there's nothing" and immediately says "it doesn't make sense to fall", after saying it's nothing she says "there's probably no such thing as nothing" and says "my body is sinking in a world where even such a description is meaningless".

This aligns with Reines saying it is not zero, because even zero has baggage, but it's 'no-thing', an unfathomable force where points of references cease to be, which aligns with the special pamphlet saying "it was the Spiral of Origin, however since the spiral of origin can be called itself, it was no longer Emptiness"

Funny enough even that aligns with Arcueid one of the most knowledgeable people in the verse describing it by what it's not and explaining how it's not reducible to anything but just its existence, she makes it clear that at the Swirl of the root there is an 'archive of all things', but it's less of an 'archive' and more of just an 'existence' not information but just 'existence', she says it has no will into itself and no possible directive it simply let's causes flow out of itself.

All attributes about it such as being the information or the akashic records are identical to its existence and its existence is not reducible to anything but itself, it cannot be regarded as anything but itself, pretty implicative of the Swirl of the root being fundamentally simple and not reducible to anything but itself, Arcueid continues to speak about how everything else has fallen so far into multiplicity and hence cannot reach the Swirl of the root, which is obviously absolutely simple.

Which aligns with the FGO describing it as a place free from binary restrictions and it being the source of Taiji, the one which produces Polarity which is Yin-Yang, her soul returning to the root is insignificant, all things come from and return back to the ultimate reality; her soul/origin is Emptiness already it's fine for it to experience nothing because it is nothing.

Given that the descriptions of the root independent of character dialogues that speak in uncertainty about it blatantly implies how it's no-thing, then would be nigh impossible to liken it to be a material realm.

Rooted in the Nous of hermeticism, akasha is a metaphysical plane of existence, it is said to record all things, happenings and records all of knowledge. These records are the source of extensions of the material, as a result of the world being fashioned using the information in akasha.

When it is said that the akashic records are the source of all things, it is meant to signify the information within it being used as blueprint to create the material world. The material world is said to not guarantee permanence and that the only eternal thing is something formless, the only notion said to be worthy of being called eternal is the only true record, which never changes even to the perspective of the observer who can assign different meanings to objects of reality.

The origin is implied to be the core of your soul, as its stated that the origin is the true essence of the ultimate reality deep within the souls of all things. It is also called a record, the records are then stated to be not affected by anything even your own thoughts, they're said to easy eternally even if the world one day disappears, they will remain and forever remain to be unchangeable as seen again here.

Records contained within it are said to be eternal and unchangeable, but that's about it, staff can evaluate this since it's getting repetitive and nothing new is being added really.

 

[Deagonx]

Readmore and argue less, Oh lord!!! we invented her saying the entire part where she meets Ritsuka is a dream and her saying "the night is over this dream is about to end", how evil of us soo bad faith!!

Ritsuka was dreaming, during which he was brought to the Root. The fact that this occurs while he sleeps does not make it any less real. Just ask Freddy Kreuger.

Source? context and the same character explaining how she was actually not physically in it.

First, she never says she wasn't actually in it (it wasn't physical, indeed, but neither is the Root). Second, you literally said two days ago that Shiki was the only one to survive the Root, and that she was able to do this because of her Origin. Forgive me for the crime of agreeing with Tuesday Theoretical.

I'd pay deagon to find me a point in time where somebody experienced the root in a physical sense, Ryougi was in a coma for years when she "floated" inside the swirl of the root, If we assume it is her soul, her soul is still emptiness.

Regardless, her soul is verifiably not literally the Root, because it has qualities the Root does not have.

A case was given as to how it's not the Swirl of the root already and you still have yet to respond to that,

My third to most recent comment responded to it. Here.

Records contained within it are said to be eternal and unchangeable,

Nothing in that actually says they are unchangeable, just eternal. But in any case, she must not know about Zelretch:

To answer the question of ‘if he doesn’t travel with his physical body, how could he be a Dead Apostle?’—as someone who has inherited the Hemonomic Principle of one of the 27 Ancestors, he has been corrupted on the soul-level, so it's impossible for him not to be. Vampirification is not the transformation of the body, but of existence. It’s like if the entry in the Akashic Records that read ‘human’ changed class to ‘Dead Apostle’—to become a vampire in one’s very being.​

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Theoretical I did not speak before because others did. You have continuously taken an aggressive and provocative tone in this. You have been given informal warnings to stop doing that, and you keep doing it. So this is a formal warning for disruptive behavior. Stop it now, and let that be the actual last reply you give.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

First, she never says she wasn't actually in it (it wasn't physical, indeed, but neither is the Root). Second, you literally said two days ago that Shiki was the only one to survive the Root, and that she was able to do this because of her Origin

"she's the only one to experience the Swirl of the root", shadow said "gaze" upon the root, nothing conflicting about why is being argued and yes I did say that

Regardless, her soul is verifiably not literally the Root, because it has qualities the Root does not have.

What qualities please enlighten me, I must have missed the part where Ryougi says she couldn't have intellect nor significance because of the origin of Emptiness.

Nothing in that actually says they are unchangeable, just eternal.

It's not like it says "it's that which endures forever. It's that which remains unchanged forever".

To answer the question of ‘if he doesn’t travel with his physical body, how could he be a Dead Apostle?’—as someone who has inherited the Hemonomic Principle of one of the 27 Ancestors, he has been corrupted on the soul-level, so it's impossible for him not to be. Vampirification is not the transformation of the body, but of existence. It’s like if the entry in the Akashic Records that read ‘human’ changed class to ‘Dead Apostle’—to become a vampire in one’s very being.

Notice how it says "it is like if", emphasis on Like and iff not that it IS the case, like I said read slower, respond less and read more.

She continued in an unstable voice, keeping her eyes fixed on him. It's like I'm pouring out my lonely feelings that no one can understand. "...The vortex of the source. The place where all causes are swirling, where everything is prepared and... A place with nothing.

Zelretch being a DAA would be already predetermined in the Swirl of the root precisely the akashic records, because everything is prepared and decided there already.

That's precisely why the Mystic Eyes can kill all things, because It kill the predetermined conceptual death of all things, The mystic eyes can view the conclusion of all things predetermined in The Swirl of the root.

This world has its demise determined in advance, the predetermined fated end.

I'm sure is make total logical sense that you can kill the conclusion of something when the conclusion of something doesn't exist, if the conclusion of something already exist and it exists within the root, then it ought to be the case that if Zelretch's conclusion in the tsukihime worlds included "being a DAA" the information of him being that would already be within the Swirl of the root, that's exactly why the passage you're saying says "if" and "it's like" instead of saying "it is" the case that it happened.

Filled with ennui, yet peaceful.
Though she knows everything, she never makes meaningful conversation and is an invincible lady who enjoys pointless chatter more than anything.

Exactly why people deeply connected to it are omniscient, Manaka being omniscient has already been covered in the thread Aswell.

My third to most recent comment responded to it. Here.

The sequence in which this is described really doesn't allow for that interpretation. In fact, it kind of flies in the face of every description of the point of the whole event the story is centered around.

The response is "my interpretation is more viable but I won't explain why, I'll just it is" in response to shadow who provided an extensive reductio ad absurdum, to explain how his interpretation is more viable than yours.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I did not speak before because others did. You have continuously taken an aggressive and provocative tone in this. You have been given informal warnings to stop doing that, and you keep doing it. So this is a formal warning for disruptive behavior. Stop it now, and let that be the actual last reply you give.

Fine

 

[Tdjwo]

I'm boutta off myself with these messages. Deagon is not changing his mind regardless of how wrong he is. He's always been like this. That's why I'm not even making any comments here as long as he still types something up. He's already been kept in disagree. Let other staff members make their opinion and get this over with omg.

@Firestorm808 @Agnaa @Mr. Bambu can you please help evaluating the thread as well? I remembered Agnaa saying no but for some reason you changed your mind. Would gladly appreciate your thoughts. This is becoming tiring.

 

[Deagonx]

"she's the only one to experience the Swirl of the root", shadow said "gaze" upon the root, nothing conflicting about why is being argued and yes I did say that

More than simply seeing, she felt death.

What qualities please enlighten me

The Root lacks a directive or will. Shiki was a soul adrift within it, contemplating the abyss she was in. This was not literally the Root describing it's own experiences, and if it was that'd be enough of an anti-feat in and of itself.

Notice how it says "it is like if", emphasis on Like and iff not that it IS the case

That's an extraordinarily specific metaphor for describing the unique magical outcome of Zelretch's immortality, if what we are to believe is that this isn't what happened.

The response is "my interpretation is more viable but I won't explain why, I'll just it is"

I suppose I didn't think it warranted explanation. In any case, every quote about this process describes the point of the hole as reaching the Root, as opening the path to the Root, as tearing down the wall between us and the Root. The theory that what is actually being described is a hole to the Reverse Side of the World, which is the bottom layer of the planet ~2,700km below the surface is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm boutta off myself with these messages. Deagon is not changing his mind regardless of how wrong he is. He's always been like this. That's why I'm not even making any comments here as long as he still types something up. He's already been kept in disagree. Let other staff members make their opinion and get this over with omg.

@Firestorm808 @Agnaa @Mr. Bambu can you please help evaluating the thread as well? I remembered Agnaa saying no but for some reason you changed your mind. Would gladly appreciate your thoughts. This is becoming tiring.

I don't like tiershit and don't tend to evaluate it, barring some form of kidnapping being involved. I'm responding to a rule violation that happens to be occurring inside of said tiershit.

If the thread is truly unmanageable, I could, if otherwise it will continue to generate unnecessary issues. But I'd be loathe to do so.

 

[Tdjwo]

I don't like tiershit and don't tend to evaluate it, barring some form of kidnapping being involved.

How can I kidnap you then?

If the thread is truly unmanageable, I could, if otherwise it will continue to generate unnecessary issues. But I'd be loathe to do so.

It's honestly unmanageable imo already. I can point up to 10 different instances where Deagon deliberately ignores either Ultima, theoretical, or someone else's explanation and keeps bringing up out of context or already explained points. 4/5 pages solely dedicated to explaining the same thing over and over and over again to Deagonx.
How would someone suddenly come to a thread hoping to evaluate it just to find 5 pages of repeated arguments over and over again? Just unnecessary.