I mean presumably being called by a semiotic reference to some ultimate reality is not sufficient evidence for something like Tier 0, there's already more backup evidence not even used here, I really doubt there can be a case against the Swirl of the root being Tier 0.
We're just waiting for deagon I guess, he said he had more to say throughout the week but hasn't said anything so far.
I'm still a bit confused about this.
I don't know what is meant by this, can you be more elaborate?
Same with this.
Because "deeper connection" is largely unquantifiable, my point is emanations implies everything being a part of the ultimate reality and but the degree of unity you have to the ultimate reality in essence can vary, for example in neoplatonism the Nous has a deeper unity with the ultimate reality than the material world as a whole and "The Good" is the closest emanation of "The One" of the one and has a more fundamental unity with the ultimate reality than the Nous as a whole and the material world.
That's the thing tho, that sentiment immediately implies Ryougi Shiki is different from everyone else, that's why she says "everyone is connected to it, but I am a part of it and wouldn't you say a part of it is the whole?", the rest of the cast is just connected to it and that's that. I wouldn't disagree with true magic being possibly High 1-A+, I definitely agree with atleast High 1-A+ hax for the mystic eyes tho but that's another topic, I think it's better to clear out the Tier for the root itself first.
I don't have problems with this.
Well, I might have read wrong or understood poorly but :
While the explanation themselves are for the Tier 0 being/entity, I think taking the opposite approach, aka, "someone having access to the Tier 0 of the verse should therefore only have Tier 0 potency and not something lesser" seems reasonable enough.
I agree, it can't be logically quantified, but the source you use to get power shouldn't change? From what I can understand, that you have the tiniest of connection with it (and can at least use that connection in some meaningful way, not just a "passive" connection) or a connection that makes you the closest being from The Root, it should still use the "Tier 0" as a way to achieve a certain result.
I mean, yeah, with the explanation you and Tdjwo have given to me, it seems logical to say Shiki is different from the rest.
Okay, we agree on this, then.
I LITERALLY MENTIONED THIS IN THE POST
Depends on what you mean by having "access to it", as of now I can't tell what the implications of that would be.
This applies to true magic, it's an immediate emanation of the Swirl of the root yes, but because it's an emanation of the Swirl of the root I don't think it shouldn't be Tier 0. The moment the ultimate reality takes a step at emanating something(not to be taken literal because emanation is a passive eternal process), what is emanated doesn't represent the fullness of it and only a weaker reflection of the fullness of it.
Still disagree if at the end of the day, you're an emanation of it rather than being it but you can ask for ultima's thoughts on this.
I will, but I had college assignments due Monday and Tuesday, so between that and work I've been preoccupied. I have worked on it, but I plan to make the full case all at once rather than trickle in with individual scans or something like that.
That is a bit different from how the rest of that chapter describes it.
So, to summarize. Yes you can literally go and see, touch, reach, and understand the root. Usually this results in your soul getting absorbed into the root and you can't come back to the normal world, but there are exceptions. Creating true magic literally means reaching the root. It means breaching the dimensional wall between this world and the Root, which is said to have "large quantities of unused mana, unlike anything seen on this side."
"{This} is purposefully being a bit dishonest, because its not even 4 text boxes after the part of Aoko's speech that he quotes, where she explains that what she just said is unproven because its impossible to actually touch the Root and exist, and instead as she says, what happens is you stablize your magecraft and retreat so you keep existing."
"nothing he posted says that, instead saying "it comes from the root" which doesn't mean a connection at all, because we see what a connection to the root is vs what True Magic is"
Nothing says "its impossible to touch and exist." It says that if you touch it you are sucked into it and never come out, because you become a god. There was one exception, someone that went there and came back, and thats how we know what we know about it. Then she ponders if the first person to become a god got lonely and wanted companionship there.
No, everything else was pretty important too and was establishing similar, but distinct issues with the theory that the root is a Monad. You use a Greater Grail to open a hole in the dimensional wall that separates us from the Root, and you get large quantities of unused mana that are in the Root.
You may have missed it, but I posted images that say that in the spoiler tag to avoid clutter. Aoko specifically says "I meant that no one's ever come in contact with the Root and returned to talk about it. Not a single person in the entire world. Coming in contact with it means instant death. The soul of a mere human simply 'returns to the source,' so to speak. In other words, it gets sucked into the Root."
No, I didn't miss it. That is the same section of Mahoyo I'm referring to. I even quoted it. It never says anything like "stops existing" It says they are sucked into the Root and never come back out. The rest of what I mentioned is what comes after, about people who go there becoming gods and that the first person to become a god may have wanted companions there. One person did make it back after going there, which is the main source of information about it.
Go ahead.
This is it being impossible to touch and exist. If you touch it and you're returned back into the source of all things where everything and nothing exists at once, you have in fact, stopped existing.
This is notably, not a very strong "oh yeah someone touched the root and came back", the entire scene is meant to be vague because its another theory. Aoko could be saying that the person in question went and made it back (just like a magician, which we see how that works), and never touched it, because notably, she never says this person went in.
The point is that this part isn't relevant because it doesn't disprove anything (I literally asked to verify this), I specifically chose to say it was irrelevant because the larger point was "you can touch and understand the Root", which the majority of your quotes didn't even begin to imply
You're reading something into the text that isn't there, which is contradicted by other information we're given. Someone went there and came back. Shiki floated there for years.
Far from imply, it says it directly:
Shiki did not float there, she was in a hospital bed in a coma because she got hit by a truck, come on now be serious.
Not literally touching it, as this line comes from Aoko, who says that's impossible. In fact we see Aoko gaining the true magic, and she notably doesn't touch the root at all during chapter 12, meaning we know for a fact that touching and understanding the Root does not give you true magic, because you would not exist. As she says in chapter 13, you return to the source. We know what the Root is, and what it is means being returned to it means you stop existing, there's no two ways about it.
She did not literally touch it, again, we see it in game, but even better, Aoko herself says she turned and ran before touching it. They're very clearly not using the word touch literally because again, Aoko tells us what happens if you actually touch it, very clearly, and she very much did not have her soul dissolved back into the source.
During which her soul literally went to the Root. There was a whole section dedicated to describing that experience. They even animated it. You saying "nah it didn't happen, come on" is just about the least persuasive retort I could imagine.
You can keep saying "touching it makes you stop existing" but it won't magically insert that phrase into the source material. Nothing says that. All we know is that you get pulled into it and the idea is that you become a god and can't come back, except for one person who did come back. You say this person didn't actually make it there, but that contradicts the text again.
Because it's nigh impossible to find all Nasu raw scans.
So, this is supposed to be Kara no Kyoukai, but is this the 1998 Web Novel or the 2004 Published Book?
If you know the source of the scans, there are ways with the internet.
That is a fan translation of Chapter 6. There's 7 chapters total, but not all of them have been translated.
So the Web Novel?
I don't know. I think they're the same textually, however.
So, to summarize the situation as I reckon it:
The quotes you've given have the characters say "Even if you touch the Root, some shade of yourself will almost certainly remain on this side.." "Remain on this side." That seems to be what retaining a sense of self refers to.
What is the source of these scans?
I don't accept that at all. We are distorting the original text to paint over self-evident contradictions. All counter evidence against the idea of the root being a monad is being handwaved under the pretext that things can't be true as written because then it wouldn't be a monad. That's totally backwards, we shouldn't use that kind of circular reasoning, we should look at the entire body of evidence instead of working backwards from a conclusion.
You're picking and choosing which statements you want to take seriously and which ones you don't. It just so happens that you pick the ones you feel contribute to it being a monad and discard the ones that don't, claiming they must mean something other than what they plainly mean because you've decided from the outset that the Root must be a monad.
And yet this is in stark contradiction with the theory that the OP has come up with that touching the root causes you to be instantly subsumed into perfect undifferentiated root-ness. As was Shiki's experience there.
Let us determine an agreeable english translation of the following:
How can you return to "somewhere" you were never in? Explain that to me. Explain, also, the fact that contact with the Root is pretty plainly described as annihilation. You ignored all of that and just went back to restating already-addressed things
The "The person who become God was lonely" tidbit is presented as the narrator recounting the thoughts of another person (Who, from what I can garner, is a much less knowledgeable character than the girl talking), not as actual fact. I don't think any of that girl's statements contradict each other at all.
I don't know why you treat the Root being supposed to be a monad as a "theory." It is pretty blatantly described in such terms. Of course we are going to take Piece of Information A and harmonize it with Piece of Information B if B does not inherently contradict with A whatsoever.
The discussion is young, so whether it continues or we stop it here is all one to me. If it starts actually getting needlessly long, then I can see a need to cut it off.
You read the op, if you did then you already know why I said, "directly emanates from it", because everything flows from it magecraft happens to be a mediate emanation and true magic directly derives from the Swirl of the root hence it's an immediate emanation.
And immediately says because intellectual wisdom creates a standard like "perfect" or "ultimate" knowledge, it can't be said to be the Swirl of the root and describes what it is not rather than what it is as it implies the fact that the Swirl of the root would be reduced to being finite. Touko's explanation here aligns perfectly with Saber Ryougi (who's said to be omniscient btw even in fgo) saying the place doesn't have boundaries.
Which in turns aligns with how Kara no Kyoukai describes the distinction between Spurious infinity and something that has no limits which has already been covered in the OP. The Swirl of the root, is treated as a place "without end" and "without limits" that which can create "anything" as a result, it isn't just being beyond the material, it is just free from restrictions, where even definitions limit and make it finite, as Spurious infinity is defined by limits as explained by the OP, it is limited by its own definition that distinguishes it from being finite.
Whilst True Emptiness is a radical state of freedom, where dual distinctions like "infinity and finitude" are dissolved into a unity that is "without end", this is why the mystic eyes can cut through everything, because limits exist in everything including infinity. Ryougi Shiki has never physically touched the Swirl of the root whatsoever, she was still in a hospital bed, I'd be okay with saying her consciousness experienced it. But funny enough the only person who experienced the Swirl of the root, describes her experience in the most non informative way possible.
She says "it's dark" but immediately realizes how that description is inadequate and says "there's neither light nor darkness", she then says she was floating and falling within it but realizes even that description is inadequate as she says "I can't see anything, because there's nothing" and immediately says "it doesn't make sense to fall", after saying it's nothing she says "there's probably no such thing as nothing" and says "my body is sinking in a world where even such a description is meaningless".
Does it really matter? Deagon was the one who initially used a fan translation with terrible reputation, the raws for statement in question have already been sent here.
I'm confused....I was told that if I have an issue with translations, I should provide a better translation but now it's this, is this a general rule or has it just been implemented now?
Kara No Kyoukai Paradox Spiral, I can probably find the raw scans for this.
For archival and reference purposes, yes. Can you repost the raw statement link?
