• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The Disappearance of Void Shiki's Root Scaling

Wankbreaker

VS Battles
Translation Helper
627
387
i can already predict whats going to happen if i do NOT make this a staff thread, so ill go on ahead and do it.
Alright, we’ve been told by @Ultima_Reality off site that this topic doesn’t intersect with the root thread, so it should be fine for these specific topics to be going on at the same time. keep in mind that the last thread didn’t get closed because it was rejected, it was closed due to the fact that Deagon thought it would intersect with the aforementioned thread.

Screenshot_2024-08-30_3.07.56_PM.png



also, we were told “these arguments have been addressed already” by supporters,but when Syn and I asked for either the link to this, or the pasted counter arguments, these same supporters failed to comply, so if any spectators see those same comments, please ignore if it’s not backed up with evidence.

this CRT serves to remove the direct scaling void shiki has to the root, giving her (with powers) tiering an Unknown rating, and removing all of the abilities/haxes and such that come as a consequence of this.


first, the actual reliability of her statements should be put into question.


Her wording when calling herself the Spiral actually uses a low certainty denotation (kamoshirenai). She does not “know” she is the Spiral; she guessed.
In Japanese, 〜かもしれない (kamoshirenai) is used to express uncertainty, similar to “may” or “might” in English. It implies that something could be true, but there is no concrete proof to back it up. For example, if you think you might have a cold, you would say: 風邪かもしれない (kaze kamoshirenai).
This suggests that the notion of her being the root, and thus being able to do anything, is highly uncertain and lacks concrete proof. This uncertainty extends to any other statement she (Void) makes in “Kara no Kyōkai”.

ill paste an excerpt I had with a certain user offsite:
”as a follow up to this, kamoshirenai is actually the lowest probability marker for these types of terms in japanese. (from highest to lowest uncertainty): かもしれない (kamoshirenai) / かもしれません (kamoshiremasen) / かも (kamo) (keep in mind that it has the particle for “not to know, but thats not exactly 100% true?) たぶん (tabun) (maybe,probably) おそらく (osoraku) (most likely,probably) きっと (kitto) (surely,definitely)”


Saber Shiki FGO Profile.
“Since her existence is inherently uncertain, even though she knows the full story behind many bizarre incidents, she does not get involved with them.”
It’s clear that Void lacks clarity about her own existence, and what abilities she does or doesn’t possess. Thus, her statements should take lesser priority when referring to her own power, and established lore and such should be prioritized instead.

Look at the very next sentence after the famous statement.

—But I can see much further than that. No, rather - I may well be that "swirl" myself.
けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ───わたし自身が、その渦なのかもしれないわ
She was looking him right in the eye, but her tone of voice was insecure, uncertain. As if to let slip, between moments, an utterly incommunicable loneliness.
彼女は彼を見据えたまま不安定な声で続ける。

誰にも分からない、淋しい感情を吐露するように。
She’s insecure, and uncertain about the claim she’s made.

im not sure what the “modus operandi” for this site is in these scenarios, but it’s clear that taking a guess with no concrete evidence to back it up is unreliable, to say the least. and as we get further into the thread, even the low possibility of this being true will be stamped out.


next, we’ll be going over why a connection to the root doesn’t inherently make you a god tier within the verse, and definitely not “verse” soloing tier.

There are Divine Spirits with a high degree of connection to the root. This connection persists even after the Age of Gods (AOG), though the link the mages had to them has faded.

Lord El-Melloi II Case Files | Volume 9
“Magecraft today is different from magecraft in the Age of the Gods. That I can understand, at least somewhat. Because mages from the Age of the Gods are very close to the Root, they don't need to chase after it. I'm not sure why, but I can understand that as well. But what does all of this have to do with Heartless?"

"Good....First, the mages of the Age of the Gods do not aim for the Root because they don't have to. This is because the Root is quite close to them."

I had heard this explanation many times before. Modern mages chased after the Root, but ancient mages did not.

"Faker is an example."

By now, we were already familiar with her. She was a Servant who had been summoned from many millennia ago.

"The magecraft we know of is no more than the manipulation of formulas (TN: Alternatively, spells). It is only a trick to briefly fool the world. Their magecraft, on the other hand, directly connected with the Root and Divine Spirits- no, the gods themselves." My mentor said, confirming the difference between mages in modern times and in the Age of the Gods, which had only been hinted at until now.

"The revival of the Age of the Gods would be like a miracle to generations of mages. Reaching the Root would no longer be an unattainable dream. This new form of mystery would be far more efficient."

Modern magecraft began when the Age of the Gods ended. The goal of magecraft
became attempting to return to the past. Over two thousand years, mages had spent enough talent and resources to make someone pass out from astonishment, all so they could reach the Root, the shining ideal in the distance.

A mage from the Age of the Gods must find this act incredibly foolish. Reines had told me that not even a monster like Touko Aozaki stood a chance against Faker.

"Interesting." McDonell said, nodding twice and clasping together his hands. "A god that exists only for mages... if he succeeds in creating it, we will not have to seek the Root anymore. Isn't that a wonderful proposition?"
AOG mages are said to be “quite close” to the root by linking themselves to a Divine Spirit. “Quite” can mean to the utmost extent or extremely close, implying a high degree of connection. “Adventures of El-Melloi” states that this connection is direct, without intervening factors that would diminish it. Divine Spirits themselves have an even greater connection. The connection was so strong that AOG mages saw trying to reach the root as pointless. Yet, Divine Spirits like Euryale or Stheno are not claimed to have god-like power that can surpass the rest of the verse, as no one would take you seriously. many Divine spirits are also defeated over the course of the nasuverse, by characters with no form of connection or so with the root.

Also, what you can do with that connection is limited by your scale as a being. Void, being a human, would be lesser in scale than a divine spirit:

Lord El-Melloi II Case Files | Volume 10
Her perception expanded as she stabilized as a Divine Spirit. Now, connected to the Root, time no longer mattered. She was now able to search for a point in the past while remaining in the present; not because she could see the past, but because she could see everything in the instant that her divine Saint Graph was compressed back into the form of a Ghost Liner.

There were limits to her power, of course. The bounds of her vision were limited by her scale as a Divine Spirit, and Faker was only a newborn god. She could only calculate points that she had a connection to.


Also, Void Shiki’s claim of her powers originating from her nature as emptiness is sketchy.

For him as well, it must have been a nerve-racking task. Watching him, I asked, "Master, that thing..."

"Originally, Ergo was chosen as the one to consume the three gods precisely because, as a direct descendant of the Great King of Conquerors, he was born without any striking traits—he was an empty vessel (nothingness)."

I had heard that story before, in the Great Library of Alexandria undersea.

"But if controlling those gods is the goal, then what's needed is the opposite."

"The opposite of an empty vessel?"

"Memory and personality. When facing gods, what is always required of a person is strong willpower."

I understand the logic. Even when using magecraft, it ultimately depends on the person's character. Mysteries are born where there is strong willpower. And what creates that willpower is surely memory and personality.

"But then—"

"Of course, the saturation of memories progresses even further. It’s like pouring more water into a cup that has long since been full. Ergo must have known this. That's why he hadn't engaged in this kind of memory induction until now, waiting for a solution to the memory saturation."


This implies:
1. a person who is emptiness would have trouble with divine spirits
2. They are inherently less capable of wielding mysteries, as that requires personality and willpower.

Also, angra is literal emptiness/ a void. Yet he’s the weakest out of all the servants.



He says that everything (1) uses zero (the root) as an empty space to be born out of.
However, he doesn’t have the concept of 1. He managed to be born from zero, and stay as zero. Identical to Void Shiki. He even says that the Root is him as well.

But as anyone who’s read through hollow knows, he’s weak. INCREDIBLY weak.

Asagami Fujino and Kirie Fujou verbatim have the same origin as Void Shiki, yet they also do not live up to her supposed claims.

「二年前は失敗した。ヤツは正反対すぎた。必要だったのは同じ “起源”を持ちながら別れた者達だったのだ。そうだ、悦べ両儀式。あの二人はおまえの為だけに用意した生贄だ」

"Two years ago, I failed. That guy was too different. What was needed were those who shared the same 'origin' but were separated. Yes, Rejoice, Shiki Ryougi. Those two were prepared as sacrifices just for you.”

「同じ」 (おなじ, onaji) means "same."
「“起源”」 (きげん, kigen) means "'origin'"

Now, the antifeats.

Arcueid: Ergh, so what about you Ryougi? Do you like the world of Fate?
Shiki: Not in particular, Mikiya isn't there. Sure my wishes will be granted but don't wishes get granted normally?
Arcueid: Uh, um, how direct.
Saber: Well, that would be because you're God to be blunt. You wouldn't know the pain of those without.
Shiki: Don't make such a stupid analogy. I'm cute compared to that. The stupid woman over there doesn't have any limits. She can make a castle just by her imagination you know?
Arcueid: I've got a lot of restrictions too though. Oh, so it looks that way to you two, well, the most practical one is Saber though.
Source: , 28:50 mark.

All around Type-Moon is metafiction, so which personality of Ryougi is speaking at the moment is irrelevant, all 3 characters are fully aware of each others capabilities for the setting of the CD. They even reference her wish granting ability, and the fact that she’s considered God, which is an allegory of the thought that she’s nigh-omnipotent. Normal Ryougi doesn’t have the ability they’re referencing. The fact that Saber Artoria swinging her sword around is considered more practical than a supposed omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent is damning, and the fact that Arcueids casual feat of materializing the millennium castle is impressive. She even denies the notion of being anything close to a god, as she’s cute compared to that.

This is an official drama CD written by Nasu himself.


Shiki is affected by the Human Incineration Order:

(Nasu Interview, 2016)
Shiki is a unique case. She's in a liminal state—her body had burned, but not completely. She exists in a dream, hovering just before death. The Ogawa Apartments we see are part of this dream. During the event, Shiki comments on her condition, saying things like, "This is an awful nightmare," or "I can't wake up, so come with me." If she wakes up, she would die along with that time period. However, if she stays in the dream, she can avoid the destruction of humanity and return to her original world.
This information isn't particularly helpful here. Whether Shiki dies due to the human incineration threat (which is equivalent to FGO Ama, but weaker than CCC Ama), loses to Primate Murder, or both—it’s inevitable. The Ryougis of the KnK event are the originals trying to escape death. They haven't died and thus aren't servants in the lore, only in gameplay. Also, the independent manifestation skill contradicts her being a servant. This skill allows beings to summon themselves without a container. This skill is typically limited to Beasts (who are not servants) but is also seen in Merlin and Shiki. Merlin had the potential to become a Beast, so his case is explainable. Shiki, on the other hand, remains uncertain. Merlin is not a servant but uses independent manifestation to appear as one, confirming she’s not a servant based on this skill.

"But Void is said to be a mark of an omnipotent wish granter!"
This statement is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to the Holy Grail. Here's why:

"—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. And Shiki seems to like you, so - what's mine by right is yours."
This implies:

1. There are wishes she cannot grant. "Most" can refer to as little as 51%, just over half.
2. Her abilities are limited to human-scale wishes; wishes of a higher scale are beyond her.

This is corroborated by an Archetype's line about the Grail in FGO:

"The Holy Grail, the golden chalice. I heard it was a valuable thing, but it's quite small. Is that enough to grant wishes by human standards? I thought it'd surely be like a crater or something similar. …No, I was talking about my own standards."
This aligns with statements where Ryougi calls Void’s abilities "cute" compared to an actual god, and expressed amazement over marble phantasm, saying Arcueid has no limits. It implies Archetype Earth's (Arcueid's) power to be superior. Furthermore, Arc reassures Ryougi she has restrictions, but from Ryougi and Artoria's perspectives, it might seem she doesn’t, asserting her superiority over both characters. Given a weaker character may view a markedly stronger one as almost without limits.
 
also, we were told “these arguments have been addressed already” by supporters
that was me, hi. I did link you comments where I felt that something you said was debunked by other people. In fact, I gave several links and quotes in the mihawk joke thread, or whatever tf it was.

anyways, I got permission from Ultima to post here. I plan on keeping this as short as I possibly can, so I want to get back to watching TV with my grandma (we're watching The Price is Right with Bob Barker).

Her wording when calling herself the Spiral actually uses a low certainty denotation (kamoshirenai). She does not “know” she is the Spiral; she guessed.
In Japanese, 〜かもしれない (kamoshirenai) is used to express uncertainty, similar to “may” or “might” in English. It implies that something could be true, but there is no concrete proof to back it up. For example, if you think you might have a cold, you would say: 風邪かもしれない (kaze kamoshirenai).
This suggests that the notion of her being the root, and thus being able to do anything, is highly uncertain and lacks concrete proof. This uncertainty extends to any other statement she (Void) makes in “Kara no Kyōkai”.

ill paste an excerpt I had with a certain user offsite:
”as a follow up to this, kamoshirenai is actually the lowest probability marker for these types of terms in japanese. (from highest to lowest uncertainty): かもしれない (kamoshirenai) / かもしれません (kamoshiremasen) / かも (kamo) (keep in mind that it has the particle for “not to know, but thats not exactly 100% true?) たぶん (tabun) (maybe,probably) おそらく (osoraku) (most likely,probably) きっと (kitto) (surely,definitely)”
I talked about this with you on discord. I'm not gonna argue the meaning of words in a language I suck at. What I will say is that that isn't the only scenario where she claims to be the Root. When she talks about creating the personalities, she says that she created them and that they were created by the root (will edit in the direct quotes soon).

Saber Shiki FGO Profile.
“Since her existence is inherently uncertain, even though she knows the full story behind many bizarre incidents, she does not get involved with them.”
Her existence being uncertain is different from her being unsure of her existence. The only example I can give that would be able to convey what I mean is with God. I don't think I'm allowed to go too in depth, but some believe and some don't due to evidence that is/isn't available. so, in the eyes of an atheist, God's existence is uncertain. it has nothing to do with what God thinks of himself.

There are Divine Spirits with a high degree of connection to the root.
I think I remember Ultima said that having a connection to the Root is "fine", as long as your connection doesn't make you equal or higher than it, which it doesn't.

This implies:
1. a person who is emptiness would have trouble with divine spirits
2. They are inherently less capable of wielding mysteries, as that requires personality and willpower.
Not gonna talk about divine spirits, as I don't know much about them. I'm going to focus on the "wielding mysteries" part, as it's simply just false when it applies to Ryougi. Her strongest weapon, her sword, Kanesada Kuji, is a 500 year old mystery, and she wields it with high proficiency.

Asagami Fujino and Kirie Fujou verbatim have the same origin as Void Shiki, yet they also do not live up to her supposed claims.
I remember being told that their Origins were slightly different (used different Kanji), and that them having the exact same origin would create an incredibly large plot hole in the story of Kara no Kyoukai.

All around Type-Moon is metafiction
So is Carnival Phantasm
(Nasu Interview, 2016)
we don't use Nasu statements. see here
"—Your wish, Kokutou. Tell me it. I can grant most human wishes. And Shiki seems to like you, so - what's mine by right is yours."
there are 2 things that can explain this.

1. there are indeed things that can't be done, like destroying the Root, making someone "surpass" or become an equal the Root, and other similar things.

2. She just doesn't want to do some stuff because, why would she want to? there are certain things where, if Mikiya asked her to, she'd likely just say no as it's something that serves zero purpose to do, or is stupidly absurd.
"The Holy Grail, the golden chalice. I heard it was a valuable thing, but it's quite small. Is that enough to grant wishes by human standards? I thought it'd surely be like a crater or something similar. …No, I was talking about my own standards."
this has all to do with visual appearance and nothing to do with actual ability. She thought it would be bigger pain and is disappointed. it's like a kid hearing he's getting on a rollercoaster, and he imagines the biggest exciting one, only to show up to some random wooden baby ride.
 
that was me, hi. I did link you comments where I felt that something you said was debunked by other people. In fact, I gave several links and quotes in the mihawk joke thread, or whatever tf it was.
could you paste those here, for transparency sake? mightve actually forgot. nothing i cant address anyway. i just remember a few other users saying the same thing, and failing to provide.
anyways, I got permission from Ultima to post here. I plan on keeping this as short as I possibly can, so I want to get back to watching TV with my grandma (we're watching The Price is Right with Bob Barker).


I talked about this with you on discord. I'm not gonna argue the meaning of words in a language I suck at. What I will say is that that isn't the only scenario where she claims to be the Root. When she talks about creating the personalities, she says that she created them and that they were created by the root (will edit in the direct quotes soon).
not sure if you saw my response to that, but ill paste it.

she doesn’t literally create them, she explains it here. this is common to everyone,not just her
—The flesh is there first, and intellect arises out of it. Is borne out of it.—The flesh, we may say, becomes the basis of the intellect. It does not itself "have" an intellect. The flesh simply "is." But the flesh does have a personality, a will, of a kind. It grows up as one with, and gives birth to, the intellect. That - is what I am.

Her existence being uncertain is different from her being unsure of her existence. The only example I can give that would be able to convey what I mean is with God. I don't think I'm allowed to go too in depth, but some believe and some don't due to evidence that is/isn't available. so, in the eyes of an atheist, God's existence is uncertain. it has nothing to do with what God thinks of himself.

The paragraph is posed in the context of that uncertainty about herself causing an unwillingness to act, this wouldnt make any sense in the scenario you're proposing.

I think I remember Ultima said that having a connection to the Root is "fine", as long as your connection doesn't make you equal or higher than it, which it doesn't.
not sure what the relevancy here is, as the whole point is arguing that her connection doesn't make her equal to it.

also, Divine Spirits are constructed from True Ether, magical energy from the age of gods.
this same energy is stated to come directly from the root, and sometimes uses the same Kanji as True Emptiness



ether uses the kanji 空, meaning true ether would be "true 空", and you get the point from here.

Not gonna talk about divine spirits, as I don't know much about them. I'm going to focus on the "wielding mysteries" part, as it's simply just false when it applies to Ryougi. Her strongest weapon, her sword, Kanesada Kuji, is a 500 year old mystery, and she wields it with high proficiency.
The sword has mystery stored inside of it, completely different from using a spell of some sort. she doesn't have to exert any magical energy of her own.

I remember being told that their Origins were slightly different (used different Kanji), and that them having the exact same origin would create an incredibly large plot hole in the story of Kara no Kyoukai.

nope, Fujino and Kirie's origins are never given out directly in the story, we just know from Araya ( the resident Origin expert), that they're the same as Ryougis.
So is Carnival Phantasm
Carnival Phantasm is very different in tone and not written by Nasu, its an adapation of TAKE-MOON. this is a bad comparison. also the servant universe is used for scaling here as well, so....
also, carnival phantasm is not metafiction.
Metafiction is a literary style that draws attention to its own narrative structure and the process of its creation. It often involves a self-aware narrator or characters who comment on the story and their place in it, and can appear in many forms of media, including novels, short stories, plays, video games, film, and television.
they are honestly judging their own capabilities.
we don't use Nasu statements. see here
yea, thats for scaling (at least thats what i heard from Crim and a few others). nasu is describing the background lore of the event..... unless you think nasu has severe dementia and forgot what he wrote within a few months.

regardless, like i told you on your wall, i have appropriate counters to pretty much all of these except 1, though getting into that will clutter the thread
i also heard that these arguments originally came from the Araya beats types guy..... which yea.


there are 2 things that can explain this.

1. there are indeed things that can't be done, like destroying the Root, making someone "surpass" or become an equal the Root, and other similar things.
Void Shiki is treated like an equal on her profile, as shes considered to be the thing itself. why couldnt she elevate someone else to that level, if her claims were true?
2. She just doesn't want to do some stuff because, why would she want to? there are certain things where, if Mikiya asked her to, she'd likely just say no as it's something that serves zero purpose to do, or is stupidly absurd.
theres nothing that implies this, Void was actually willing to grant him something, as Ryougi likes him. i doubt she would care, really.
this has all to do with visual appearance and nothing to do with actual ability. She thought it would be bigger pain and is disappointed. it's like a kid hearing he's getting on a rollercoaster, and he imagines the biggest exciting one, only to show up to some random wooden baby ride.
Except... the ability of a grail is usually conflated with size, as it has more energy stored.
 
could you paste those here, for transparency sake? mightve actually forgot. nothing i cant address anyway. i just remember a few other users saying the same thing, and failing to provide.
my comment is one of the first ones https://vsbattles.com/threads/void-shiki-faces-the-mihawk-treatment.170518/
nope, Fujino and Kirie's origins are never given out directly in the story, we just know from Araya ( the resident Origin expert), that they're the same as Ryougis.
if they were the same, then he could have used either of them for his plans with significantly more ease.
also the servant universe is used for scaling here as well, so....
I don't understand the relevancy of this
regardless, like i told you on your wall, i have appropriate counters to pretty much all of these except 1, though getting into that will clutter the thread
you can make a separate thread about it, but this is what's currently accepted on the site.
theres nothing that implies this, Void was actually willing to grant him something, as Ryougi likes him. i doubt she would care, really.
if Mikiya said "kill Ryougi Shiki" or some random horrid thing, I doubt Void would do it.
Void Shiki is treated like an equal on her profile, as shes considered to be the thing itself.
we treat Void as a direct incarnation of the Root, which is a situation that allows her to scale directly.
why couldnt she elevate someone else to that level, if her claims were true?
pretty sure it's impossible to be given power that surpasses the person giving the power (when it comes to 1-A and higher, I mean)
Except... the ability of a grail is usually conflated with size, as it has more energy stored.
I'd like to see evidence of this, as I haven't seen anything that suggests this.

I'll leave just about everything else that I didn't comment on to people more qualified than me so they can give, hopefully, a satisfying answer.
 
addressed below
if they were the same, then he could have used either of them for his plans with significantly more ease.
he wanted ryougi for her eyes.



both the manga and anime adaptations say he needed the eyes, btw.
even the fourth popularity poll says “「 」に至る魔眼”
or roughly: (Mystic eyes that lead to 「 」)

(yes, Touko is talking to Alba here, but Alba didnt care about the Root, and was only helping Araya so that he could get help in killing Touko)
I don't understand the relevancy of this
the servant universe is widely considered parody. if you want to dismiss all around type moon (which is even less parody centered, as its more of like Geccha and Geccha 2 from PLUS-DISC in concept. talking about actual lore, from a metafictional perspective), that would be hypocritical. even shit like TM april fools 2013 is relevant in future works, one example being the introduction of Mysterious Heroine X.
Point is: its not like Carnival Phantasm at all (as it is actually a nasu written work, and is very different in tone) , and even shit that is widely considered parody has lasting effects on the continuity and lore, and thus is not valid grounds for dismissal.
you can make a separate thread about it, but this is what's currently accepted on the site.
yea... im checking the thread and only scaling answers are discarded.

With all this said, my proposal is this:
From this point onwards, we drop all attempts at using Nasu's statements for scaling. Assuming this is accepted, we should edit the verse page saying Nasu's statements aren't usable, and link this thread going over why.
anything like discarding his lore statements, will need to be handled elsewhere,as that was not covered in the OP's proposal. this is completely valid to use,as this was not a scaling-centered interview/response.
if Mikiya said "kill Ryougi Shiki" or some random horrid thing, I doubt Void would do it.
who knows, she has the innate desire to kill all things, she might do it, or not. not really relevant here though. the fact remains that "most" implies a clear gap in her capabilities.
we treat Void as a direct incarnation of the Root, which is a situation that allows her to scale directly.
in that case angra mainyu would need to scale also..... and then you get into the main issue. Void Shiki's origin is nothingness (kyomu), does this mean everything else with that origin, or anything else described to be nothingness are direct incarnations of the root?
pretty sure it's impossible to be given power that surpasses the person giving the power (when it comes to 1-A and higher, I mean)
that seems to only apply for tier 0, but i would rather have someone like Ultima pitch in on that front.
I'd like to see evidence of this, as I haven't seen anything that suggests this.
editing with scans later
I'll leave just about everything else that I didn't comment on to people more qualified than me so they can give, hopefully, a satisfying answer.
 
the servant universe is widely considered parody. if you want to dismiss all around type moon (which is even less parody centered, as its more of like Geccha and Geccha 2 from PLUS-DISC in concept. talking about actual lore, from a metafictional perspective), that would be hypocritical. even shit like TM april fools 2013 is relevant in future works, one example being the introduction of Mysterious Heroine X.
Never heard of it, tbh. Bears no relevance to me.
In that case angra mainyu would need to scale also.....
It was talked about in an old thread that he wouldn't scale at all. It was indeed brought up, but was deemed insufficient.
Yea... im checking the thread and only scaling answers are discarded.
I'm not gonna argue over the and phrasing. At the end of the day, it's just gonna go in a circle.
and then you get into the main issue. Void Shiki's origin is nothingness (kyomu), does this mean everything else with that origin, or anything else described to be nothingness are direct incarnations of the root?
According to Void, they typically don't even survive birth. She explains this halfway through the epilogue, and I can't remember the exact wording.

Last comment I'll be able to make. Peace.
 
Never heard of it, tbh. Bears no relevance to me.
alright, just saying stuff on the profiles like high godly regen come from the servant verse, which is considered "parody"
It was talked about in an old thread that he wouldn't scale at all. It was indeed brought up, but was deemed insufficient.
an old thread really has nothing to do with the lore telling you his nature is emptiness, he is a direct product of the root, and considers the root to be himself like a certain someone..... only to be the weakest servant.
According to Void, they typically don't even survive birth. She explains this halfway through the epilogue, and I can't remember the exact wording.
as we know from Araya, Fujino and Kirie survived, and there are many other things described to be nothingness in Type-MOON as well.
im asking in those cases, would they be considered direct incarnations of the root as well.

ill also use this opportunity to insert these two statements:

From Asagami Fujino's profile:
“単純な数値比べなら、物語中最高の性能。”"Simply in terms of a numerical comparison , her capabilities are the highest in the story.”
this puts her capabilities higher than any character who has appeared in KNK,which includes void shiki.

ORT is also verbatim just called the strongest in the entire verse, here:
full-disclosure-on-a-certain-alien-type-moon-ace-15-lb7-v0-iqln2f46greb1.png

if void shiki really were the root, and could do anything, these characters wouldnt have the room to be superior, as she would have a superior existence + every ability they have + much more at a higher level. this wouldnt make any sense unless... she wasnt actually the Root.
 
update: was told over discord yesterday that ultima planned to evaluate this between yesterday, or today. (so basically he should be looking at this today, if everything goes right)
 
Update (this is the last one I’ll do until a staff member or someone else wants to pitch in.)

as is known, Void Shiki says she could not beat primate murder.

but if you look at the JP: there’s actually a few more interesting tidbits.

本物のガイアの怪物が相手なら仕方がないけれど、 相手はアラヤの怪物の劣化品。

If the opponent were a genuine Monster of Gaia, nothing could be done, but the opponent is merely an inferior imitation of a Monster of Alaya.

両儀式
相手が死に狂った末の幽霊なら、 こっちも死にもの狂いで戦えばいいだけの話ですもの。

Ryougi Shiki
If the opponent is a ghost maddened by death, then I just need to fight as if my life depends on it.

マシュ
式さん? え、え!?

Mash
Shiki-san? Eh, eh!?

両儀式
はじめまして、マシュさん。 こんばんは、藤丸さん。

Ryougi Shiki
Nice to meet you, Mash-san. Good evening, Fujimaru-san.

両儀式
極力出てこないつもりだったけど、 相手が相手だから出てきちゃった。

Ryougi Shiki
I intended not to come out as much as possible, but since the opponent is what it is, I ended up coming out.

両儀式
少しの間だけど、私でよければ使ってあげて。

Ryougi Shiki
It's only for a short while, but if you don't mind, use me.
ill just rephrase the stuff of interest here.
Void says:
1. If a Monster of Gaia (primate murder) was there, there would be nothing she could do.
2. She says she needs to “fight as if her life depended on it” in order to beat a degraded beast of alaya
3.she felt as if the opponent was so strong, she had no choice but to take control.

now here is where the void shiki fans say that she was nerfed by a servant container.
however, this is not true.

but first, to explain how pseudo servants work, as ryougi calls herself a pseudo servant.



basically, the incarnated spirit fuses with the host body, and makes them a pseudo servant, compared to a traditional servant container. usually, this would nerf the spirit, as a human is lower scale than a divine spirit. However, this does not apply to Ryougi. Essentially, Void is her body/vessel, so there would be no nerf to her own power, since it’s Shiki Ryougi, and another Shiki Ryougi (and arguably might even be a buff, as it’s the power of 2 ryougis fusing.)

Void explains it here;
—The flesh is there first, and intellect arises out of it. Is borne out of it.

—The flesh, we may say, becomes the basis of the intellect. It does not itself "have" an intellect. The flesh simply "is." But the flesh does have a personality, a will, of a kind. It grows up as one with, and gives birth to, the intellect. That - is what I am.

Ah, he said. He'd heard it somewhere before, hadn't he. That the human being is composed of three different things. Mind and soul, to which is added the fleshly body. Supposing, then, that the mind resides in the brain, and the soul in the body. That makes her - what? Shiki's essence. Her true character. A personality, "the body", with nothing of Shiki's heart.

Gently, she nodded her head. Ryougi Shiki did.

—Basically, that's how it is.

—"I" am not a personality borne of the intellect. I am the personality of the flesh as such.

basically: Void Shiki using Ryougi as a vessel is literally the same as their normal relationship. FGO materials even call them the same existence.

She’s the same person as Shiki Ryougi, the girl who wears a jacket over her kimono. However, their personalities are different.

If Shiki Ryougi is the girl known as 「Shiki」, then this person is the woman known as「Shiki Ryougi」

The personality of the body itself, embodying 「 」 that represents the beginning.
 
I do not know the verse, may come back later if there is more staff who have a better grasp on the system comment however.
 
Back
Top