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Do you have a replacement translation?
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At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade
- Thread starter Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
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Well that's for you to find, not my problem, I'm just saying the evidence you're using is questionable for reasons provided above.
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You can't just say a translation is faulty, and then not provide an alternative.
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Took time searching for Raws to be used explicitly for this thread, not really my fault he didn't analyze his own piece of evidence. You don't really use evidence, then someone points out exactly how the evidence is not reliable, and you want someone else to get you evidence from a different source.. It's just blatantly shifting the burden.
It doesn't really matter because that's not the only thing I brought up to point out the inconsistency behind what he's saying.
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Well no, if you say the translation's bad, you've gotta provide an alternative. That's not burden shifting. In fact, you'd be doing the burden shifting by saying "this translation's bad, go find another one." The onus to bring a better translation is on you
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This does not appear to be the same scene. Can you provide a link to the full book?
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I didn't even say that translation is bad.... I said his translations are bad in a general sense, If the evidence is presented to be used to justify why his translations are generally bad, then it's not burden shifting to tell him to get new ones.
This thread is already getting lengthy for literally absolutely no reason because the preponderance is against him, something I already emphasized beforehand good Christ.
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Objectively speaking, it is. You need to provide the alternative yourself instead of telling someone else "go find it." That's not their obligation, it's yours
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For what's worth, here is another translation of the same scene that I've been sent. Wildly different, from what I can gather, so if we insist on hitting this key, the raws are probably the best bet.
Besides that, I think Theoretical brings a good point. If this statement is just flat-out contradicted, then it's not worth much, real or not.
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It's the same scene from oblivion records, the translation just appears significantly different because.. It's coke...it was explaining how memories and everyone's consciousness is connected to the akashic records.
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Here] it is. But let me warn you in advance that the site contains +18 ads.
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I have removed the above link, as we aren't actually allowed to link to illegal sites nor content that may lead to +18 content.
You are not being punished here, but keep that in mind for the future.
The rules cited are here:
The above imgur album with the scans is fair to link however.
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Well, when the new Tier 0 was made, it was founded under very strict criteria. That is, even one anti-feat would be enough to disqualify the entire thing
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That's if the anti-feats are actually valid, mind. It is still perfectly possible for a statement to just be contradicted by other pieces of information, both due to in-universe factors and, especially, out-of-universe ones. Let's not pretend Tier 0s are somehow immune to retcons and similar things now, please.
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I'm not pretending anything, I just missed that. My bad
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All good. Used that phrase to get the point across.
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I guess I'll clarify this, Human order is the collective unconscious, it stores extensive records of existence on the planet and records of heroes and counter guardians to defend humanity. It's already considered a wave of phenomenon that is lower than but resembles the akashic records.
Coupled with the fact that the akashic records are already considered unchangeable and independent of the observer's perception but dominate the observer itself, they continue to exist even when the material world will one day disappear as it's not eternal.
The collective unconscious exists as long as human order and the planet exists, the records of Akasha exist even when the material world falls apart, there's a clear symmetry breaker between the two; hope this clears out the doubt because the records of the collective unconscious aren't the same ones in Akasha.
There raw Rave sent is the same one used and a better translation has already been sent.
Tdjwo
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Alright, so the issue is resolved then. Anyone else with another counterpoint to the crt?
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Yeah, given this, it seems the translation given by Deagon is likely inaccurate, and would just be contradictory to other pieces of information even if it wasn't. Seems this point is hashed out indeed, unless someone insists in getting those raws translated.
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What is the source of these translations?
I'll have more to say on this throughout the week. There's a lot to cover here.
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KnK 6 got retranslated a few months ago, the source for the full thing is here
GarrixianXD
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I wanted to stay away from this CRT, but after seeing some comments I feel like I need to make my word.
I do not think that we should use translations from unknown, unofficial third-party sources without official recognition if we're not going to concisely analyse it. The reputation of the third-party source where the translation comes from should be taken into consideration if we are to use their information. This is all I have to say. Please do not quote me.
I do not think that we should use translations from unknown, unofficial third-party sources without official recognition if we're not going to concisely analyse it. The reputation of the third-party source where the translation comes from should be taken into consideration if we are to use their information. This is all I have to say. Please do not quote me.
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Really depends on how the discussion unfolds. Can't exactly predict how long it'll go for, and as per the rules, Deagon technically has 2 weeks to respond even if the majority agrees with the thread.
I'd be frankly lying if I said I wasn't skeptical of the opposition's ability to form a case, but who knows. Let him have his word. The thread is only a day old. The other threads will take care of themselves.
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Well there is a pretty blatant instance of either the opposition just not having any clue on what they're talking about, despite claiming to have expertise in the specific title the statement comes from, or purposefully omitting information for agenda posting(the holy grail stuff was pretty out of context asw). Halting the discussion to go look for more anti-feats because you've ran out is hilarious behavior, but ig the forum's 2 week graze period allows this type of stuff to happen
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Nothing is lost, either way. If the new material ends up being that puerile, then it can be easily rebutted. If it brings in valid points, then it brings in valid points.
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I apologize for the long wait, I work for most of the day.
It seems to be similar to what the raw is :
MTL Translation :
Obviously, the translation is shit. However, with the raw directly available, you can see that the "mostly" is there.
It isn't the fact that she's comparing her to the Holy Grail that it is problematic, in fact it seems logical. It's more about the "human standards" part. Also, the fact that she's stated to be a "Hole to the Root" and not "The Root Itself". For someone as knowledgeable as Arcueid, you can agree that it seems conflicting with Shiki's own description to some degree. At least that's my view on it, but I'm open to your explanation.
So you agree that she's a Hole to the Root while being The Root Itself?
I'll skip this one to not needlessly make the answer longer, it's not that important anyway.
It isn't the fact that "she's similar to the Holy Grail" that is a problem, she could be compared to a tree it wouldn't be important, it's more the fact that we're using "human standards" and that she's stated by Arcueid to be a hole to the root.
I have an additional question if that's fine by you, but what about Manaka? She obviously has the same connection to the root as Shiki (the difference being Manaka has shit quantities of Mana Circuits) so would you put her at 0 too?
Tdjwo
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Honestly, it doesn't matter if she said "mostly" or "all." Like Ultima said earlier, some wishes are probably not supposed to be granted due to its nature and if Shiki is able to do much crazier things like outright erasing everything and every phenomena in the verse, then granting any wish is in the realms of feasibility to a monads nature shouldnt be a big deal. I simply see this as her claiming she can grant any wish other than some obscure wishes like her killing herself or erasing the verse which she actually stated she could easily do, but simply wouldn't due to her nature.
Honestly, this whole "Hole to the Root" is taken out of proportion. I simply see this the same way the holy trinity works. I dont want to act like a bible nerd but you know this bible quote by Jesus
Indicating Jesus is the way to God
And the way to god is also God himself
Indicating Jesus is asserting His divine nature and unity with God the Father. By seeing and knowing Jesus, people are, in essence, seeing and knowing God the Father because Jesus embodies God's presence on Earth.
Or this quote
I simply see this "Hole to the Root" for Shiki as her being the root itself in a physical form. One of the same. It's more philosophical rather than physical because there can't be an actual passage to something that already exists everywhere at all times.
Already addressed this.
Tell me, is this human standards;
And by now, you should know that whatever Void Shiki says about herself/Root holds a thousand more validity than whatever Arcueid says. And it's not like Arc said anything that counters Shiki's existence. Human standards could mean anything really. Maybe she could perform a miracle that's considered a wish by human standards. All we do know is she's said she's capable of doing stuff that are clearly beyond human standards.
Actually, this is even funny to talk about because there are other characters who are clearly below Void Shiki who can perform actions beyond human standards/comprehension (e.g Outer Gods like Sut-typhon). Lol.
Lol no. There are several differences between both of them
- Shiki's Origin is literal Emptiness (空, Kara). And she is the only person in all of Nasu to have that. An indication that she's the Root.
- Manaka shares a connection to the root as much as Satsuki Kurogiri's "Unified Language" shares a connection to the root. In order words, unlike Void Shiki whose existence stems directly from the Root, and is a whole different being/individual than Shiki Ryougi who also has a connection to the root in the form of Mystic eyes of Death pereception, Manaka is just like any other individual styated to have some connection to the root. There is a reason Void Shiki says all these things she saysand acts completely different from others who merely share a connection to the root. Dont forget Void Shiki has no personality, no will, no emotion, nothing. All these other characters have that. It's almost as if Kinoko Nasu intentionally potrayed her as an actual monad who origin stems from emptiness, hmm
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Everything I'll not quote is something I either accept or that I have nothing further to discuss, just so you know I'm not purposely bypassing some of your message.
I mean, wouldn't "Mage/Magecraft/supernatural" already be outside human standards in any case?
I mean, I suppose that make sense, Shiki would know "itself" better than Arcueid, but Arcueid isn't exactly a "random and unimportant character", that was my line of reasoning.
I mean, wouldn't "Mage/Magecraft/supernatural" already be outside human standards in any case?
I'm confused. She's said to have been born omnipotent, and also to "technically" being able to grant any wish if she didn't have her magical circuits. Beside her "Origin" not being the same as Shiki, why would it be "that much different" ? If you can do "everything" Shiki can do, beside being The Root itself, it feels like logical to say Manaka would have the same "arsenal" as Shiki (omitting her physical constraints).Manaka shares a connection to the root as much as Satsuki Kurogiri's "Unified Language" shares a connection to the root. In order words, unlike Void Shiki whose existence stems directly from the Root, and is a whole different being/individual than Shiki Ryougi who also has a connection to the root in the form of Mystic eyes of Death pereception, Manaka is just like any other individual styated to have some connection to the root. There is a reason Void Shiki says all these things she saysand acts completely different from others who merely share a connection to the root. Dont forget Void Shiki has no personality, no will, no emotion, nothing. All these other characters have that. It's almost as if Kinoko Nasu intentionally potrayed her as an actual monad who origin stems from emptiness, hmm
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I quite frankly see no issues with her saying "almost anything", she can't do things that are metaphysically inconsistent with her own nature, like take out a knife and stab the Swirl of the root. The holy grail on the other hand can't even perform a wish like "saving humanity".
Which holy grail to be specific? The holy grail is a loose term for any artifact that can grant wishes. The mooncells core is a holy grail but doesn't have 3rd magic so it's not the same one as understood in normative magecraft, the holy grail that received the blood of Jesus from the age of myth is a holy grail itself with power comparable the one from a normative magecraft perspective. There are three. Which one is it?
If anything, that can grant wishes is a holy grail, then there aren't any conflicting claims. The degree at which one can grant wishes varies obviously, seeing as the core of the mooncell doesn't have nearly as much power as the actual holy grail.
It says all-purpose wish granting machine from what I'm seeing too rather than "omnipotent-wish granter
if we suppose this is true, then she is infact not similar to the holy grail because it is not a hole to the root.
It's still unclear as to what she meant by that, but it won't matter much, Arcueid was talking to Shiki Ryougi not Void Shiki, they don't have the same connection to the root because Ryougi is a mediate emanation from the intermediate emanation that being Void Shiki.
Everything is connected to the Swirl of the root, the degree of the connection matters, which was the point of explaining how phenomena flowing from the Swirl of the root means the immediate emanations will always take precedence over mediate emanations, Manaka is not really anywhere close to being an equivalent to Ryougi's situation when it comes to her connection, but you're welcome to explain why you think she is outside of using a statement that applies to all things, Ryougi has the origin of Emptiness and this directly connects her to the Swirl of the root.
The origin is just the essence of everything, as it is something that is absolute and underlies particulars of the material world, the explanation we get for the origin of Emptiness is similar to the explanation we get of the Swirl of the root itself, as Shiki explains how because she was born with the origin of 「 」, she was something that which couldn't be said to have "intellect" nor "significance", because in essence she's just nothing.
She's the only known person to experience the return to nothingness without being absorbed by it, she herself distinguishes between merely having a connection to it by clarifying how "we are all connected to it" but "she's a part of it, but a part of true Emptiness is the same as the whole" because it's fundamentally indivisible.
Heck the omniscient character states she is it, oh did I mention she's called Omniscient atleast twice.
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Isn't she able to know "everything" thanks to her connection? I feel like it's something a bit more fundamental than the regular "everything and everyone comes from The Root."
(I don't know if the translation is a good one, so feel free to correct me if it's a mistranslation)
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Ah omnipotence in type moon, so powerful that beings with higher dimensional senses are regarded as that, the mooncell is regarded as that, Solomon is regarded as that, even good old gilgamesh is omnipotent... But
This is what grants Ryougi's omnipotence more credence than anyone else... If she doesn't have that origin she's not omnipotent to begin with because her essence isn't the ultimate reality which is the only thing truly omnipotent to begin with...
Then she can't do everything shiki can do... This is really counter intuitive.
I wasn't denying her having a fundamental connection beyond simply just being connected because you come from it, I'm saying the word "connect" is still something shared by everyone. Whilst Ryougi distinguishes herself from just merely being connected to being a part of it and being it.
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I'm 100% sure Manaka doesn't have a feat of resisting something connected to the akashic records like Ryougi did against the unified language as well, ignoring the fact that Ryougi is still the only soul to survive being in the root without permanently disappearing because of the origin of Emptiness.
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Where would you put Manaka then? High 1-A+ ? Below?
I mean, Omnipotence is a grand word for very little things most of the time, let's be honest. It just seems more "valid" when someone has connection to the ultimate being/reality to the verse.
Fair, I suppose.
Fair, though I still feel the way Arcueid describe Shiki a bit iffy, but if you say so, I'll trust you, it's not like I can topple you in terms of knowledge.
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Maybe but idk, whatever omnipotence it is, it just doesn't have practical applications it would be useless to put her at High 1-A+ if she can't even exercise that power, the only possible way to reason against it is her saying she restricts herself but I'm not sure.
I don't disagree again, she does have a more fundamental connection.
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