At the boundary of tier 0: Swirl of the root tier 0 upgrade

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Shiki was a soul adrift within it, contemplating the abyss she was in.

Souls/origins don't speak, they dominate your intellect and personality especially when awakened

There's no light here. No, I suspect I never fell in the first place.

Since there's nothing here.

It's not just that there's no light, there isn't even any darkness. Since there is nothing here nothing is visible. There is no meaning to the concept of falling.

Inside the 「　　」within which even form is meaningless, just my body keeps sinking. The naked me, I'm a poisonous shade which makes me want to turn my eyes away. Because everything 「here」 bears such a poisonous aura.

"--- This is death."

Even the sound of my muttering seems like a dream.

The idea that it was the soul to begin with that was contemplating the experience is a questionable interpretation of it, when it doesn't even say it was the soul.

My primary premise is she experienced it and gazed upon it, the origin of Emptiness allowed her to survive it not the soul was in there.

That's an extraordinarily specific metaphor for describing the unique magical outcome of Zelretch's immortality, if what we are to believe is that this isn't what happened.

Yes and metaphors can be extraordinarily specific, I know.

In any case, every quote about this process describes the point of the hole as reaching the Root, as opening the path to the Root, as tearing down the wall between us and the Root. The theory that what is actually being described is a hole to the Reverse Side of the World, which is the bottom layer of the planet ~2,700km below the surface is pretty ridiculous

I've never quoted his statement to say, you didn't respond to him, I said you didn't respond to shadow nor did you not respond to some of the arguments I've provided.

And I explicitly said, the throne of the heroes is outside of the world, the pathway in itself is outside of the world, heck the outer universe is outside of the world, the reverse side of the world is outside of the world, so is the Swirl of the root.

Considering the pathway the holy grail creates is only the first step and the pathway to it is still far, and nobody physically touches the root and comes back from it, you'd need really extensive evidence to suggest "the other side" is immediately indicates the Swirl of the root, when there are atleast 5 realms in "the other side".

 

[Agnaa]

I'm boutta off myself with these messages. Deagon is not changing his mind regardless of how wrong he is. He's always been like this. That's why I'm not even making any comments here as long as he still types something up. He's already been kept in disagree. Let other staff members make their opinion and get this over with omg.

@Firestorm808 @Agnaa @Mr. Bambu can you please help evaluating the thread as well? I remembered Agnaa saying no but for some reason you changed your mind. Would gladly appreciate your thoughts. This is becoming tiring.

I first came here for a reason unrelated to tiering (Deagon quoting old posts from supporters). I then happened to see a few vague system-underpinning things (whether "creating a hole to and drawing energy from a tier 0" is a reasonable anti-feat, and whether "moving to a tier 0" is a reasonable anti-feat).

Actually passing judgement on this thread requires reading a stupid amount of material that I don't care about at all. I'd rather not do so unless people are obviously making incorrect judgements, but dismiss my corrections over core system issues due to not having read all the scans. Especially in the current state, where arguments haven't been summarized, and the OP lasts over 4,000 words (from experience with other verses, I can guarantee that 80% of this isn't actually important).

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, right, I'll put the evaluator hat on. First, though, I have to clarify:

It shouldn't actually be possible to go from not being encompassed by a Tier 0, to being encompassed by a Tier 0, unless such a thing happens entirely and is due to a realisation rather than an actual change. It shouldn't even be possible to go from being less encompassed to being more encompassed, or for some place/object to be more encompassed than another.

This isn't solely because a Tier 0 can't be changed, but more because a Tier 0 can't have different degrees of similarity to different entities, as that involves a relation of qualities which is inapplicable.

In the same way that you can't get closer to a being beyond dimensions by moving within space; there is no spatial relation that would be greater in some areas and lesser in others. One could not change their qualities to be more or less akin to a Tier 0.

And so, I do still think this inclusion is an issue, since it implies a relation in qualities that shouldn't exist.

And in case you'd also want me to answer this

Being "more or less" encompassed by a Tier 0 is not possible, but getting "closer" to it in the sense of a remotion of qualities is possible. Not by "modulating" still-existing attributes of yours, but by taking out your attributes and getting closer and closer to annihilating yourself. There's nothing problematic about that, since the "closeness" isn't in terms of an actual proportion between 0 and non-0, but in the sense of how close the latter is to just dissolving into the former.

Shiki's stay in the Root seems to fall under that:

Spoiler

Here, it's stated that contact with the Root means instant death, as the soul returns to the source. Based on this, being "in the Root" while not being it seems to be basically just being one step away from annihilation, since:

it was dark there, and the bottom was dark. I realized that all that surrounded me was darkness, and I accepted that I had died. Floating in the ocean with no light or sound. Naked and without any decorations, the humanoid figure named Ryougi sinks down. There was no end. Well, maybe it wasn't falling in the first place. Because there's nothing here. It's not that there's no light, there's not even darkness. I can't see anything because there's nothing. It doesn't even make sense to fall. There is probably no such thing as nothing. Even my body is sinking in a world where even the description is meaningless. When I am naked, the colors are so poisonous that I want to turn away. Everything that “is” here is too poisonous.

This "experience" is described entirely in negative terms. She describes herself as falling in some kind of dark environment with nothing in it apart from her, but then denies that it is dark, that she is actually falling, and then that there even is "nothing" around her to begin with. Followed by her negating all descriptions of the experience, which she says are meaningless. The only thing that she affirms as existing in unambiguous terms is herself. But even then:

And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened."

This experience is described as a sort of weird state in which she is alive, but "about to lose [her] grip." This seems to indicate that this was really nothing but a stripping off of everything until the only thing separating her from the Root was a sense of selfhood.

But I digress on this, since it is just how I've read the evidence presented so far.

Although, I will say that the whole "Hole to le Root" thing is, at face value, problematic, yes.

This is not what the page says. The page goes to great lengths to say that encompassment of something that is not the monad, not merely in "any normal sense" but rather in any conceivable sense whatsoever shouldn't be possible. Hence "utterly transcendent over any system of differences, divisions, and inequalities." If the page had simply said "you can't be within it in a spatial sense, but other senses are fine" we'd be having a very different conversation. Instead it says:

The lack of a clear answer doesn't have to do with my reading of the text, but with the innate lack of clarity around the concept of non-physical containment. You could just as well ask what it means to be in DC's Nil, or within Limbo, both of which are aspatial.
The way this discussion is progressing would be akin to if Limbo were purported to be a monad, an counter-argument was made on the basis of the multiple distinct people inside this realm, and then the counter-counter-argument is a demand for an explanation of the mechanisms of Limbo "containing" these people.

I don't think that's really an appropriate or relevant request. It is just a fact that ethereal realms can contain things and nearly always do, and that often these realms are described in terms which are seemingly spatial. This does not make it any less of an anti-feat. Unless you really intend to take this so far that your stance is that only spatiality represents genuine differentiation.

See above for what I've gathered on the matter. The point of what I said is pretty much "You might say that this doesn't really constitute being in the Root, but you're already taking such a vague, inherently unconventional view of what that means that what I've said is by no means less plausible."

And I would say it jives better with the general descriptions of what the Root is, as well. It is objectively described as more than just "the beginning of all things," or a "dark abyss," after all, unlike what you've said here. Do you retract that? You don't clarify whether you think the Root is a contradicted Monad, or if the statements about it aren't even obviously monadic to begin with (They are. I've showed them to you)

---

Anyhow: It's pretty late here, and midnight debating is bad for the soul, so I'll just try my best to wipe clean all the information about this thread from my mind and come back here tomorrow. For the past few pages, I notice I took something of a hands-on role in this discussion. That will not be the case anymore, by tomorrow. I'll just judge whatever it is that both sides have said (And whatever they might add while I'm asleep) without personally engaging in debate.

I don't think a tally is even being counted here, but for all intents and purposes, you all can consider this post as me switching my vote to 'Neutral' until I come back.

 

[Deagonx]

My primary premise is she experienced it and gazed upon it, the origin of Emptiness allowed her to survive it not the soul was in there.

Whatever it is that you are imagining experienced it and survived it, the point remains that it was not literally the Root itself.

And I explicitly said, the throne of the heroes is outside of the world, the pathway in itself is outside of the world, heck the outer universe is outside of the world, the reverse side of the world is outside of the world, so is the Swirl of the root.

Right, so if we have this list of candidates for things outside of the world, one of which includes the Root, and the context is "opening a path to the Root" or "tearing down the wall between us and the Root" or "reaching the root" why would we choose a candidate other than the Root? When the entire point of the Grail War, stated ad nauseum throughout the entire verse, is to reach the root? We're going to override all of that and say it's all to reach, idk, the throne of heroes to get a bunch of mana? I think that's extremely far fetched and I see no reason to think of it that way.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

How would someone suddenly come to a thread hoping to evaluate it just to find 5 pages of repeated arguments over and over again? Just unnecessary.

Yeah it's about to be 6 pages now, what a pain, lemme know when staff starts to evaluate I'm off.

Actually passing judgement on this thread requires reading a stupid amount of material that I don't care about at all. I'd rather not do so unless people are obviously making incorrect judgements, but dismiss my corrections over core system issues due to not having read all the scans. Especially in the current state, where arguments haven't been summarized, and the OP lasts over 4,000 words (from experience with other verses, I can guarantee that 80% of this isn't actually important).

Yes, most of what has been extensively argued upon wasn't and still isn't actually important and understandable..

Right, so if we have this list of candidates for things outside of the world, one of which includes the Root, and the context is "opening a path to the Root" or "tearing down the wall between us and the Root" or "reaching the root" why would we choose a candidate other than the Root? When the entire point of the Grail War, stated ad nauseum throughout the entire verse.

Deagon... It is precisely because it doesn't reach the Swirl of the root..that's why they say the path it creates is only the first step towards the root, this literally has been repeated over and over again, it's perfectly feasible for the pathway itself to have residual mana, likewise with the outer universe (where outer gods exist) and the throne of heroes itself...

 

[Deagonx]

Deagon... It is precisely because it doesn't reach the Swirl of the root..that's why they say the path it creates is only the first step towards the root,

No, the mage doesn't reach the Swirl, but the path being opened is undeniably to the Root. The path itself is too far to practically traverse, but that doesn't justify this bizarre interpretation that they're actually opening up a hole to any other realm.

Answer me this: Why would a hole to one of these other realms (Reverse Side, Outer Universe, Throne) ever be described as opening the path to the root, why would it be relevant in the pursuit of the Root

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah, right, I'll put the evaluator hat on. First, though, I have to clarify:


Being "more or less" encompassed by a Tier 0 is not possible, but getting "closer" to it in the sense of a remotion of qualities is possible. Not by "modulating" still-existing attributes of yours, but by taking out your attributes and getting closer and closer to annihilating yourself. There's nothing problematic about that, since the "closeness" isn't in terms of an actual proportion between 0 and non-0, but in the sense of how close the latter is to just dissolving into the former.

Shiki's stay in the Root seems to fall under that:

Spoiler

Here, it's stated that contact with the Root means instant death, as the soul returns to the source. Based on this, being "in the Root" while not being it seems to be basically just being one step away from annihilation, since:



This "experience" is described entirely in negative terms. She describes herself as falling in some kind of dark environment with nothing in it apart from her, but then denies that it is dark, that she is actually falling, and then that there even is "nothing" around her to begin with. Followed by her negating all descriptions of the experience, which she says are meaningless. The only thing that she affirms as existing in unambiguous terms is herself. But even then:



This experience is described as a sort of weird state in which she is alive, but "about to lose [her] grip." This seems to indicate that this was really nothing but a stripping off of everything until the only thing separating her from the Root was a sense of selfhood.

But I digress on this, since it is just how I've read the evidence presented so far.

Fair. I think that such a thing wouldn't actually bring one closer (I don't think a 1-A with 5 qualities is, in any relevant way, closer to a tier 0 than a High 1-A with 20 qualities; plus, a distinct character couldn't actually shed those properties, they could only be the tier 0 taking themselves out of that illusion), but I do see how it's reasonable for a verse to describe that process in such terms, so I probably shouldn't be too hard on it unless it's particularly wacky.

Although, I will say that the whole "Hole to le Root" thing is, at face value, problematic, yes.

Sweet.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm trying to help you guys tackle one topic at a time, but for some reason you guys are jumping from scan to scan instead of dealing with each one by one.

 

[Deagonx]

Per Aoko:

1. No one survived contact with the Root. Not a single person in the entire world.
2. Contact with the Root = Instant Death.
3. Contact with the Root = Returning to the Root.
4. If any single person became God through contact with the Root, they became a dead person who got sucked into the Root after contact.

Do you disagree that any of these statements are factual?
If so, how many statements does your position require to discard?

Shiki Ryougi was 9 years old when Aoko said that. At that point in time those things were likely true. #4 is worded strangely though, that's not stated. Aoko also says there is one person who went and made it back, which is how they know what they know about the Root.

Shiki Ryogi herself said that 'floating' she experienced was a nightmare she dreamt up

She says "if" it was. At that point in time she doesn't really know what the Root is and is trying to make sense of her experience in the immediate aftermath. Other statements in the series make it clear that she wasn't simply dreaming.
More than simply seeing, she felt death.
—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

A spiteful small part of Souren will probably end remaining in the world and cause great destruction. And?

The fact that a part of Souren will survive contact with the Root and use the power it gains to cause massive destruction is problematic. Further, Souren believes its an open question as to whether he will retain his sense of self while within the Root.

The process, as described in Fate/Stay Night, is that the Greater Grail sends the souls of Servants back and keeps the hole created by their return open, and this hole allows a path toward the Root, and this path happens to have a large amount of Mana.
This would only be the first step in the far-off journey to the Root, and isn't enough to actually lead inside the Root.

Note that the same hole allows a path for the summoned Servants to return to the Throne of Heroes, and this in no way implies that the Throne of Heroes gets punctured.

You're tweaking the wording ever so slightly, but enough to obfuscate what's really going on here. It's not a path "toward" the root that just so happens to have a large amount of Mana, it is a path to the root, it breaks down the wall between the world and the Root. Moreover, it's explicitly not the same hole as the one for Servants, that one is patched up before the Grail pierces through the wall to the Root.

There's not enough distortion to connect to the Root."
"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the Root. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"

"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole. The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach."

There are numerous quotes across many different VNs affirming that the Holy Grail and the war serve the purpose of reaching the root. None ever say anything like "well, you don't really reach the root but you get a bunch of mana from the Throne of Heroes, which is cool." Further, it's totally incoherent as to how opening a path to the Throne of Heroes would serve the purpose of reaching the Root, it's not possible for the Throne to be "closer" to the Root or anything like that.

 

[Deagonx]

See above for what I've gathered on the matter. The point of what I said is pretty much "You might say that this doesn't really constitute being in the Root, but you're already taking such a vague, inherently unconventional view of what that means that what I've said is by no means less plausible."

I think the description of it as "such a vague, inherently unconventional view of what that means" is overstating the abnormality of aspatial containment. Fiction is full of things that can't really be mapped to something in real life, which is why I used the Nil and Limbo examples. Regardless of the nature of it, it's unquestionable that the Monitors are inside of Nil. In the vast majority of situations we accept that metaphysical realms more or less operate similarly to spatial realms and that's never an issue, I don't think there's a good reason for it to be an issue now. Moreover, a big chunk of this thread has been dedicated to arguing about whether or not Shiki actually went there at all, so I'm not a fan of the pivot to "well, even if she was, being 'inside' such a place doesn't really mean anything." If it didn't mean anything we wouldn't have spent so long arguing about it here.

And I would say it jives better with the general descriptions of what the Root is, as well. It is objectively described as more than just "the beginning of all things," or a "dark abyss," after all, unlike what you've said here. Do you retract that? You don't clarify whether you think the Root is a contradicted Monad, or if the statements about it aren't even obviously monadic to begin with (They are. I've showed them to you)

I don't really think it does jive better, because neither interpretations actually contradict what we know about the Root.

As to your second point, It depends on what you mean as "monadic" in terms of a statement about it. I agree that the Root has attributes that a monad also has, but monads don't have a monopoly on any of their individual attributes. I understand that we do not require fictions to exhaustively list each one, but if we extrapolate monism from some of them, and then find that we must awkwardly reinterpret several things in the verse to fit, then I feel our rationale is being corrupted by powerscaling.

We have numerous statements describing the Root as a metaphysical location, a "world" that is outside our own, that there's a wall between us and that place which can be punctured, that things are connected to it directly and some are instead just derived from it indirectly. We have several direct statements of people actually being there, we have people asking open ended questions about whether people can't come back out or simply don't want to, or if they remain themselves afterwards. We have instances where people seem to edit the information within it, or access it to impact the world and get special powers, or open a hole to it to receive mana. These things are not monadic, but they don't contradict the attributes the Root has, they contradict the extrapolated attributes it receives when we decide it's a monad.

Yes, I understand that for any one of these individual things we can find ways to bring it into harmony with the conclusion that the earlier attributes constitute Monism, but when you look at the evidence as a whole you find that in some instances you're not just brushing off minor things that could go either way, but rather going plainly against what the text clearly says and writing new information wholecloth into the verse to justify the work-around, like this idea that the hole to the Root actually goes to some other realm like the Throne of Heroes or Reverse Side of the World, that Shiki was never really in the Root. These issues progressively stack up until I feel that we are going to unreasonable lengths to maintain monism.

I don't see a good reason to do that here. If we hadn't decided that monism constitutes Tier 0, we wouldn't even bother coming up with this stuff. I know we wouldn't, because every single person arguing against these monism antifeats had no issue with them until it prevented the verse from getting the highest possible cosmology available to us. That is indicative to me that these instances are not so easily brushed aside.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To conclude. I am happy to discuss this more, but I will state that I think it is unlikely that we find any new scans beyond what's already been presented that significantly impact the verse's characterization of the Root. If preferable we can start to try and condense things into summarized points and agreed-upon points of contention as to what the text actually says vs what interpretations are being argued and try to get further input.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, as mentioned before, I'll just put on the judge hat and go over everything that's been shown so far, later. (After I'm done going through some other threads)

 

[Firestorm808]

2015.07.30 | Fate Grand Order
Due to the availability of the raw scans, I ask that we come to an agreement with regard to the FGO Shiki scans first and document it.
Then, we will move on to the next set of FGO scans and so on.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

What's the current state of things here? What's being argued about now?

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

What's the current state of things here? What's being argued about now?

I doubt there's gonna be any other further arguments, right now I think it's about whether or not the statement "creates a hole to the root" somehow means "creates a hole in the root", but since this has already been argued over and over again, I doubt anyone wants to keep continuing this.

I'd be better if staff just continued to just evaluate now, I don't see any reason to continue as well.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Oh ye now apparently people "edit" information in it and gain superpowers from it and it's described as a "world" so it's not Tier 0 and it's outside of the world and the outside of the world is described as having alot of mana so "allegedly" it means the Swirl of the root also has alot of mana, I think that's about it.

 

[Agnaa]

I doubt there's gonna be any other further arguments, right now I think it's about whether or not the statement "creates a hole to the root" somehow means "creates a hole in the root", but since this has already been argued over and over again, I doubt anyone wants to keep continuing this.

I'd be better if staff just continued to just evaluate now, I don't see any reason to continue as well.

Being able to reach a monad (as long as it's not through realising that the distinction is an illusion, or through reaching an avatar of it), even without directly damaging it, is still an anti-feat.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Being able to reach a monad (as long as it's not through realising that the distinction is an illusion, or through reaching an avatar of it), even without directly damaging it, is still an anti-feat.

Oh, in what way?

 

[Agnaa]

Oh, in what way?

Such a thing just doesn't make sense by the definition of a monad we've got.

It cannot be reached by travelling to a location, as it is not in a location.

It cannot be reached by adding/removing certain properties to reach its state, as its state is timeless and immutable.

Any action taken in any possible world would not get you any closer to a monad, as the monad is timelessly outside of all possible worlds and all their events.

There's just no coherent way for it to happen.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

It cannot be reached by travelling to a location, as it is not in a location.

It cannot be reached by adding/removing certain properties to reach its state, as its state is timeless and immutable.

Any action taken in any possible world would not get you any closer to a monad, as the monad is timelessly outside of all possible worlds and all their events.

Can't really argue against the standards then, I'll wait for ultima to say his final words, this can still be salvaged if this is the reason, can you clarify what you mean by "adding/removing certain" properties? You mean for example returning back to non-being to become a part of that non-being is a contradiction, because it's timeless and immutable?

 

[Agnaa]

Can't really argue against the standards then, I'll wait for ultima to say his final words, this can still be salvaged if this is the reason, can you clarify what you mean by "adding/removing certain" properties? You mean for example returning back to non-being to become a part of that non-being is a contradiction, because it's timeless and immutable?

Not returning back to but becoming. It has the same issue with any other instance of a character becoming a monad.

As explained, returning (even then, only by realising that the distinction is illusory) is the only accepted way.

 

[Tdjwo]

Not returning back to but becoming. It has the same issue with any other instance of a character becoming a monad.

Who claimed they become the root? I'm pretty sure its been explained that they get erased into nothingness.

 

[Agnaa]

Who claimed they become the root? I'm pretty sure its been explained that they get erased into nothingness.

No-one, I was responding to Theoretical's hypothetical about the standards in general. Specifically, the part I've bolded:

Can't really argue against the standards then, I'll wait for ultima to say his final words, this can still be salvaged if this is the reason, can you clarify what you mean by "adding/removing certain" properties? You mean for example returning back to non-being to become a part of that non-being is a contradiction, because it's timeless and immutable?

If you'd gaze a few posts above, you'd see how this chain of conversation came about; Theoretical believed that creating a hole to the root wasn't an anti-feat, I declared that it was and explained how.

No-one said anything about becoming the root.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Not returning back to but becoming. It has the same issue with any other instance of a character becoming a monad.

Oh ye then no, nobody becomes the ultimate reality, but I know deagon interprets people reaching it as becoming gods in it over the hypothesis made my Aoko, which has also been argued against alot.

There's a permanent unchanging "I" that's already recorded in the akashic records and the material world is treated as dream-like by Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality), when she talks about how if she were to exercise her power it would be trivial because it is just akin to dreaming and when she uses the mystic eyes in fgo, her voice line says "all is a dream" and there's another statement in Extra CCC saying all of creation is illusionary and all things are intrinsically nothingness but I can't be arsed to use that, because I don't have the raws for it.

Theoretical believed that creating a hole to the root wasn't an anti-feat, I declared that it was and explained how.

Iff outside of all that "exist" is only non-being, would being outside of the world encompassing all "being" mean it's still a contradiction for you reach it in that sense?

Any action taken in any possible world would not get you any closer to a monad, as the monad is timelessly outside of all possible worlds and all their events.

Also for this, if the only way for it to be acceptable to reach it is through enlightenment and the realization that everything is interconnected and distinctions are illusionary trivialize the idea that "any action taken in any possible world x, would not get any closer to a monad, as the monad is timelessly outside of all possible worlds and their events"

Unless what was meant by this, was just that any action but, the action of enlightenment can reach it.

 

[Agnaa]

Iff outside of all that "exist" is only non-being, would being outside of the world encompassing all "being" mean it's still a contradiction for you reach it in that sense?

I don't see this question as meaningfully distinct from the others you've asked, so I can't give a different answer.

Also for this, if the only way for it to be acceptable to reach it is through enlightenment and the realization that everything is interconnected and distinctions are illusionary trivialize the idea that "any action taken in any possible world x, would not get any closer to a monad, as the monad is timelessly outside of all possible worlds and their events"

Unless what was meant by this, was just that any action but, the action of enlightenment can reach it.

"enlightenment" in that sense wouldn't be an action. This quote gets at what I mean, even though it's talking about evil instead of enlightenment.

I started to laugh. The dark facet of God, call it evil, call it hatred, call it Thamiel, was hollow, more brittle than glass, lighter than a feather. I started laughing that Ana had wasted her question on the existence of evil, when evil was thinner than a hair, tinier than a dust speck, so tiny it barely even existed at all. Evil was the world’s dumbest joke, the flimsiest illusion, a piece of wool God pulled over His own eyes with no expectation that it could possibly fool anybody.

It's the absolute fooling itself, and as the absolute is timeless and immutable, such a shift in perspective isn't treated as an action.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I don't see this question as meaningfully distinct from the others you've asked, so I can't give a different answer.

First one was in regards to the removed and added qualities used to reach the ultimate reality, now it's about the issue of "location", if location is a loose term used for where something is, then saying "outside" of all possible worlds would entail that it's still located somewhere, if it's specifically used to refer to a spatial or temporal location, then outside of the world is neither spatial or temporal, it's just absolute no-thing.

It's the absolute fooling itself, and as the absolute is timeless and immutable, such a shift in perspective isn't treated as an action.

I agree it isn't treated as an action, because it's unclear as to what it even means for the ultimate reality that emanates things without a directive will to have a shift in perspective and it's unclear as to what the entailments of something like the absolute fooling itself.

Unless the terms mean something else, if it's used normatively, then the shift in perspective would imply the ultimate reality having the capacity to act, this seems even more radical than something just reaching the outside of the world and comes across a facet of the ultimate, a fragment of the absolute no-thing.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Not returning back to but becoming. It has the same issue with any other instance of a character becoming a monad.

As explained, returning (even then, only by realising that the distinction is illusory) is the only accepted way.

The written standards don't really say anything about this return to the Tier 0 having to be through a mental realization. They simply say that such cosmologies make that possible.

In fact, three months ago, you asked me how I would interpret a case where a character has "Essence Manipulation," and uses this ability to take away all the attributes of a being until nothing of them is left whatsoever. I responded to you that the above type of cosmology would just result in this erasure being effectively a return to the Tier 0.

And this isn't me being inconsistent with my standards, mind you. All the way back in December, I responded to a similar question with more or less the exact same answer. So, maybe you see this sort of thing as going against Tier 0's definition anyway, but it's not exactly a solid standard.

 

[Agnaa]

Theoretical: I don't see the relation of that to this thread, so I'm not gonna answer.

Ultima: Fair enough, I just see that as going against the Tier 0's nature of being unchanging/immutable, and against the written standards against characters who become monads during the story.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Theoretical: I don't see the relation of that to this thread, so I'm not gonna answer.

It does relate to the current issues faced in the thread though, if being a monad means it's gonna be a state that radically cannot be reached through any action, then the greater grail creating a path to akasha means it's no longer Tier 0 even when it does not directly change the properties of the ultimate reality itself.

Unless that instance doesn't apply to the greater grail and this thread, if so then I won't continue.

 

[Agnaa]

I've already answered that. I don't know what else you're expecting me to say.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I've already answered that. I don't know what else you're expecting me to say.

As said above, the actual written standards don't explicitly condemn (what might be) the situation described here, even if they don't explicitly condone it, either. So it just boils down to a discussion on whether it does result in a breach to the immutability demanded of a Tier 0, instead of an appeal to "The standards say this."

 

[Agnaa]

As said above, the actual written standards don't explicitly condemn (what might be) the situation described here, even if they don't explicitly condone it, either. So it just boils down to a discussion on whether it does result in a breach to the immutability demanded of a Tier 0, instead of an appeal to "The standards say this."

I mean, I've already engaged in that discussion without a blind appeal to the standards. As seen in all of my posts from here onwards.

I'm just saying that, given that, I don't have anything to really add.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I mean, I've already engaged in that discussion without a blind appeal to the standards. As seen in all of my posts from here onwards.

I'm just saying that, given that, I don't have anything to really add.

Sure, if you consider that to be your starting post. What I'm doing is just noting that the debate on this needn't end here, since it's not something explicitly solidified.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

If it's a location, then with all of the evidence considered, it is likely not a normative or geometrical denotation for location, the only person who experiences it describes it in negative terms to a point where they say it's nothing but "nothing probably can't exist", it can be a location and still be one in an immaterial sense just as forms exist in the intelligible world or the nous.

There's a permanent unchanging "I" that's already recorded in the akashic records and the material world is treated as dream-like by Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality), when she talks about how if she were to exercise her power it would be trivial because it is just akin to dreaming and when she uses the mystic eyes in fgo, her voice line says "all is a dream" and there's another statement in Extra CCC saying all of creation is illusionary and all things are intrinsically nothingness but I can't be arsed to use that, because I don't have the raws for it.

And this.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

If it's a location, then with all of the evidence considered, it is likely not a normative or geometrical denotation for location, the only person who experiences it describes it in negative terms to a point where they say it's nothing but "nothing probably can't exist", it can be a location and still be one in an immaterial sense just as forms exist in the intelligible world or the nous.

And this.

This get us to the question of what the hell "A hole to the Root" even means, in this context. If it's something like this:

In fact, three months ago, you asked me how I would interpret a case where a character has "Essence Manipulation," and uses this ability to take away all the attributes of a being until nothing of them is left whatsoever. I responded to you that the above type of cosmology would just result in this erasure being effectively a return to the Tier 0.

Then this turns into a debate on whether such a thing actually makes the purported Tier 0 non-immutable. (For the record: As stated above I am now neutral to the thread until I survey all the evidence again, but I'd say that this doesn't breach immutability, myself)

 

[Agnaa]

In fact, three months ago, you asked me how I would interpret a case where a character has "Essence Manipulation," and uses this ability to take away all the attributes of a being until nothing of them is left whatsoever. I responded to you that the above type of cosmology would just result in this erasure being effectively a return to the Tier 0.

Quick Contention: Consider that this would be more equivalent to absolute nothingness rather than a monad. Removing attributes never makes one into "being itself", the grounding of existence, etc. A monad isn't just the lack of all qualities.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Quick Contention: Consider that this would be more equivalent to absolute nothingness rather than a monad. Removing attributes never makes one into "being itself", the grounding of existence, etc. A monad isn't just the lack of all qualities.

That would hold true for cosmologies which deny that such a sameness holds between the Tier 0 and its "products." Not so for the kind of cosmology being discussed here, where everything simply is the Tier 0 at the core, to begin with, and the Tier 0 simply is the state of non-individuation. (Hence a return to it in the sense of dissolution is even possible)

 

[Antvasima]

I'm trying to help you guys tackle one topic at a time, but for some reason you guys are jumping from scan to scan instead of dealing with each one by one.

This seems like a very reasonable request.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

This get us to the question of what the hell "A hole to the Root" even means, in this context. If it's something like this:

At what point does it start to be an issue for something to create a hole to the ultimate reality? Is it when it creates one to it but not necessarily in it or is it that the pathway itself can potentially causes inconsistencies even when it doesn't create a hole in the ultimate reality.

If it's just to the ultimate reality, then I don't think it causes inconsistencies to the essence of the ultimate reality being immutable in itself, everything is a facet of the ultimate reality as is, because it is facets of it can be subject to change, even when it doesn't mean the reality in itself is changing

Especially when type moon atleast Kara no Kyoukai and Tsukihime places alot emphasis on the material world being transient and subject to change, Kara no Kyoukai oblivion records provides an explanation for the material world being transient and distinguishes between it and the records within the ultimate reality which was said to be eternal and unchanging.

It is like the Atman which is close to and is the manifestation of Brahman representing the eternal and unchanging soul, spirit or self, just as how the primordial soul that being the origin is considered to be the true essence of the root within all things.

Personalities and bodies are only decorations used to make it easier for us to distinguish one other.

The only things that shall remain intact are those that exist within us. Physical
matter will eventually be worn down and exhausted. The natural order dictates
that our planet shall fall one day. If the correct path for our world is its eventual destruction, then there is no need to prevent it. After all, the true world, the only one that matters, exists only within our brains, and yet even that has been tainted by filth. That is why I must continue to seek the oblivion within others.

We humans are born in order to find solutions to problems. I do not possess a
sense of self. Even without one, I still continue to exist in this world. Neither a
definite reality or a physical body are of any importance to me. Our spirit does
not dwell within our bodies. Reality possesses no meaning of its own. Eternity
is nowhere to be found. It will never be found, not while the outside world is as
corrupted as it is now," he remarked bluntly, with a look of total indifference on
his face.

Kara No Kyoukai Oblivion Record

This spirit is said not to dwell within physical bodies of the entities it constitutes, because it's considered an unchangeable record within akasha.

Kara no Kyoukai, El Melloi Case files and Tsukihime generally explain the mystic eyes as having the capacity to kill everything because everything has a flaw and all things are born fundamentally imperfect, Tsukihime goes far as to have Arcueid explain how the notion of "Life and Death" is irrelevant, if it moves, hence changes it can be killed without an exception.

If the statements for

• Records being unchangeable
• Material world being distinguished from the unchangeable records
• The core of the soul being a record itself
• The raws for the statements themselves

Are required again (because 3 out of the 4) has been sent in this thread already then, I can send them again.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

At what point does it start to be an issue for something to create a hole to the ultimate reality? Is it when it creates one to it but not necessarily in it or is it that the pathway itself can potentially causes inconsistencies even when it doesn't create a hole in the ultimate reality.

Mostly when it imputes the notion of "Opening a portal to somewhere else," pretty much, or "Punching a hole leading to this, using raw power." Both of these definitely connote the idea of the starting point and the destination being two objects defined over against each other, which a non-0 and a Tier 0 cannot be (The latter transcending objecthood entirely). You're well-acquainted with Neoplatonism so I imagine you understand how weird the phrase "Opening a hole leading to the One" sounds to the ears.

That said, from what I've gathered reading early sections of this discussion, Deagon's idea is basically that the Root is some sort of container of mana, so that, when you poke a hole leading to it, the mana in there starts leaking out, like it's a piñata or something. That would be massively problematic but I'll grant that it doesn't seem correct, given the scene with Shiki making it clear that the Root is devoid of anything at all (To the point she even denies that there's some "nothing" around her, too).

It is stated, with reference to the Root, that "the other side contains large quantities of unused mana." But this seems to be from a character who has no experience whatsoever with the Root, vs. the testimony of someone who's actually gazed into it. Is that correct?

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

You're well-acquainted with Neoplatonism so I imagine you understand how weird the phrase "Opening a hole leading to the One" sounds to the ears.

Yeah definitely

It is stated, with reference to the Root, that "the other side contains large quantities of unused mana."

The thing is, it's normal for mana to general be located around areas you're inhabiting, for example mages have a choice to use magical energy that's within them and magical energy that's general around the planet or so, that's why I mentioned how it can be very feasible that the "other side" having mana is in reference to the residual mana within the pathway itself not the Swirl of the root.

That would be massively problematic but I'll grant that it doesn't seem correct, given the scene with Shiki making it clear that the Root is devoid of anything at all (To the point she even denies that there's some "nothing" around her, too).

It's her and the 3rd personality, which says "it is where everything is provided, hence there's nothing" in the movie version, while the raw says "it is where everything is prepared and where there's nothing", prior to that she says because it's nothing, it can't have an attribute like intellect nor can it have significance.

But this seems to be from a character who has no experience whatsoever with the Root, vs. the testimony of someone who's actually gazed into it. Is that correct?

Yes Rin Tohsaka iirc, has never reached the Swirl of the root, I'd say Aoko statements are even better than hers because she's from a lineage that has experienced traveling in the pathway itself, that's excluding her speaking of how uncertain it is to even say "God's exist there" whilst simultaneously saying to "touch it and understand remakes the word impossible", which are just counter intuitive claims on her part.

Her saying you return to nothingness at the very least is backed up by several preexisting statements of a person who experienced it herself.