Ainz vs Aqua (Konosuba) Speed Equal

[Moritzva]

I feel good for abandoning this thread over a week ago.

 

[FDrybob]

If I haven't voted already, I vote for Ainz due to his WCI providing him with crucial resistances, and his hax.

 

[Gabriel_00]

This matchup should be banned from versus

I agree with this.

 

[DarkWraths]

Ainz FRA

 

[FDrybob]

What are the current votes?

 

[DeathNoodles]

What are the current votes?

The previous vote count was 5-7, with your vote included (you have already voted before).

With a new vote from someone who hasn't replied in this thread previously (who voted for Ainz), it's now 5-8 I think. Enough to make this match reach grace period.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Ainz easily

 

[Ugarik]

Acually no offence but I don't think DarkWraths gave a lot of thoughts into his vote. I think he just typed "Ainz fra" simply because he likes him more. I do however think arguments toward Ainz were a lot more reasonable but I don't want to give him a vote for now

 

[NeoSuperior]

So... what happened to that Attack Reflection from Aqua? I asked this... half a thread ago or so, and still didn't get a satisfying answer.

People have been mentioning that TGOALID has no vector and isn't magic, but you forgot one fact: TGOALID is attached to Ainz's Death Magic, so if Aqua reflects the Death Magic itself, it wouldn't hit her because it gets turned away before the "resistance check" normally happens, I assume (and if not it'd at most mean that both both sides get hit by TGOALID, i.e. incon).

Though that's only relevant if the magic Ainz attaches TGOALID to is one with a vector to begin with. I think Cry of the Banshee is an attack with a Vector, but I am not sure about how the situation is with the super-tier lovecraftian death magic. Grasp heart is also vectorless, but I don't think Ainz has ever shown to use that combo. So considering the situation, I actually think that Ainz, due to lack of knowledge would attach TGOALID to Cry of the Banshee and get it reflected onto himself, which would lead to either Ainz losing up his resurrection (or lose if he already used it earlier), or get him a win by both dying and only him resurrecting (or incon-ing if he already used his resurrection earlier).

Not voting yet, by the way. I still wait for some clarification about Aqua's Attack Reflection.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Though that's only relevant if the magic Ainz attaches TGOALID to is one with a vector to begin with. I think Cry of the Banshee is an attack with a Vector, but I am not sure about how the situation is with the super-tier lovecraftian death magic. Grasp heart is also vectorless, but I don't think Ainz has ever shown to use that combo. So considering the situation, I actually think that Ainz, due to lack of knowledge would attach TGOALID to Cry of the Banshee and get it reflected onto himself, which would lead to either Ainz losing up his resurrection (or lose if he already used it earlier), or get him a win by both dying and only him resurrecting (or incon-ing if he already used his resurrection earlier).

Just commenting to correct this. Ainz used Cry of the Banshee due to facing Shalltear, her Einherjar, and Shalltear healing from her Summon Household, there was no choice but to use AOE, while unless I'm missing something, it will just be Aqua he's figthing, so he has no reason to AOE rather than use Grasp Heart, Death, or True Death

 

[FDrybob]

Ainz would use Reality Slash way before he uses TGOALID, and unless I'm missing something, Reality Slash will do the job.

 

[ANDELE3025]

So... what happened to that Attack Reflection from Aqua? I asked this... half a thread ago or so, and still didn't get a satisfying answer.

Reflect sends back projectiles (even if the projectile would after hitting something become a aoe), doesnt work on effects without a projectile like pbaoes or simply effects with just a line of sight requirement but no line of effect. Also im not sure if Aqua ever used Reflect/is shown to prepare it or know how to use it (unlike her much much smarter Cult Archpriest vs the Anis succubus/demon), at least as far as i remember/translations post vol 7 were sketchy online ones with possible errors due to being jumbled through multiple languages. Remember that by canon Aqua is literally too stupid to remember that she can heal herself if she feels threatened.

 

[DarkWraths]

Acually no offence but I don't think DarkWraths gave a lot of thoughts into his vote. I think he just typed "Ainz fra" simply because he likes him more. I do however think arguments toward Ainz were a lot more reasonable but I don't want to give him a vote for now

I've voted for Ainz because one of the arguments used in this thread involves Reality Slash, which Aqua neither has the resistance to nor has the Regenerationn to make up for it based on her profile. And unless Aqua has shown to reflect Spatial Manipulation (if not, it would be within the category of NLF), she would get cleaved in half by Reality Slash and dies.

Either that or Ainz uses a Black Hole spell to create a void in Aqua's body and absorb her body into some unknown void. I've actually put some thought into this vote at least.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Reality Slash does not cleave people in half last I checked, it just ignores dura and slashes them

 

[DeathNoodles]

Reality Slash does not cleave people in half last I checked, it just ignores dura and slashes them

What made you come into that conclusion? Mind telling me?

And from what I can tell, Shalltear has to recover from Reality Slash using her time-rewinding healing skill several times.

 

[Gabriel_00]

"Ainz arguments make more sense"

>Baseless claims

>Assumptions

>D&D

>....

 

[Apeironaxim]

It cleaved through the very fabric of space, and fresh blood fountained from Shalltear's chest.

The three dimension-rending slashes drew gouts of fresh blood from Shalltear, but she paid it no heed and continued pressing forward, the implacable obsidian sword at her back.

Here are the times when Reaslity Slash was used and Shalltear's condition was explained, and I don't see any mention of her body being cleaved in half and coming apart and needing to be pulled back together from her time rewind

Also of course Shalltear would want to use her time rewind skill regardless of if Reality Slash tears pieces of her body off, it does a massive amount of damage and depletes her health quickly and depletes a good amount of Ainz's mana every use. Negating the damage both helps directly with her health, but also indirectly by just lolnoping the powerful attack Ainz spent a lot of mana on, meaning he can't cast as many spells to use on her.

 

[DeathNoodles]

"Ainz arguments make more sense"

>Baseless claims

>Assumptions

>D&D

>....

You're pretty much the only one arguing in Aqua's favour at this point, and your arguments has been focused on attempting to handwave World Class Items as outliers and dura-negating hax resistances being overpowered by the same hax through higher AP. No offence, but I don't think you're in a position to point that out.

 

[DeathNoodles]

It cleaved through the very fabric of space, and fresh blood fountained from Shalltear's chest.

The three dimension-rending slashes drew gouts of fresh blood from Shalltear, but she paid it no heed and continued pressing forward, the implacable obsidian sword at her back.

Here are the times when Reaslity Slash was used and Shalltear's condition was explained, and I don't see any mention of her body being cleaved in half and coming apart and needing to be pulled back together from her time rewind

Also of course Shalltear would want to use her time rewind skill regardless of if Reality Slash tears pieces of her body off, it does a massive amount of damage and depletes her health quickly and depletes a good amount of Ainz's mana every use. Negating the damage both helps directly with her health, but also indirectly by just lolnoping the powerful attack Ainz spent a lot of mana on.

Regardless on whether or not Reality Slash actually cleaves people in half, I highly doubt Aqua would survive the massive blood loss anyways. She doesn't even have Immortality Type 2 listed in her profile, so combine that with the lack of Regenerationn, and she can die from that.

 

[Apeironaxim]

I'm not saying it wouldn't do anything or be helpful, I'm just pointing out it doesn't seem to cleave people in half

Sorry if I came off that way

 

[DeathNoodles]

I'm not saying it wouldn't do anything or be helpful, I'm just pointing out it doesn't seem to cleave people in half

Sorry if I came off that way

That's fine, I didn't get offended at all. While Realith Slash can be quite helpful, Ainz still has a few variety of other hax abilities to defeat Aqua with anyways.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Yeah, and regarding your last post, Reality Slash does seem to cause a lot of blood to spurt out on impact, so that would help

 

[FDrybob]

Keep in mind that Ainz has mentioned multiple times that Reality Slash is one of his most damaging spells, and he uses it a bunch against both Cure Elim and Shalltear, the only two comparable opponents he's faced so far. He'll probably use it on Aqua pretty quickly. Also, he usually uses the triplet maximized version anyway. In addition, the part where Shalltear is able to go through several reality slashes is shown in the anime, and iirc none of them are direct hits. They cut her open, but they don't cut her apart due to the angle. If they were direct hits, like the first few he used, she would've taken much more damage.

 

[Apeironaxim]

I still don't agree with Reality Slash literally cleaving people in half, but I do agree it cuts into you

Also not sure the anime should be primary argument, as the LN doesn't mention them being "almost hits", just that she powers through them. Saying the only reason she wasn't cleaved in half was because of them being "almost hits" relies on something that was never even hinted at in the LN, therefor creating an inconsistency

Not sure if that was what your were going for, and if not then sorry

 

[JorgeDaJiboia]

But would he have time to use reality slash tho? Aqua can kill him right after he uses Grasp Heart with Turn Undead.

 

[FDrybob]

If you follow this link, you'll see that Shalltear still took what would clearly be a fatal blow for a living human: https://youtu.be/02pmPMCWHGo?t=477 . Even though it's not clear if it went all the way through, the loss of blood gives us the indication that it probably did. Now imagine what that would do to a non-flying opponent like Aqua. And then imagine that happening three times at once thanks to triplet magic.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Even in the event she resists it, Grasp Heart stuns you if resisted, in which case two things could happen:

1. Since his main hax is resisted, Ainz would probably teleport away to strategize and buff himself, maybe summon some really strong undead for help

2. Start spamming attack spells like Reality Slash while she's stunned

 

[Apeironaxim]

If you follow this link, you'll see that even with divine-class armor, Shalltear still took what would clearly be a fatal blow for a living human: https://youtu.be/02pmPMCWHGo?t=477 . Now imagine what that would do to an unarmored, non-flying opponent like Aqua. And then imagine that happening three times at once thanks to triplet magic.

Armor literally doesn't matter, it negs dura, that's the whole point of Reality Slash

 

[Gabriel_00]

If reality slash doesn't kill her she can heal herself

@Deathnoodles, my claim that resistance can be overpowered by superior AP related to that hax is backed up by the resistance e hax pages on this wiki while you didn't show any proof to back up your claims, A character that focuses on a certain kind of hax is generally acepted as having superior hax to a lower tier character with said resistance and hax, a 9-B character with fire resistance doesn't resist a 6-A fire attack and as the hax page says, hax can come in all shapes and forms and the resistance page doesn't make any actuall distinction between regular resistances and hax resistance because they are basically the same thing. Also your argument of amount of targets affected, while it could be valid if they we're comparable in tier, affecting fodder ins't the best feat, in case you want an example just look at the 10 commandments pages from seven deadly sins they can rip away souls from entire towns and nobody considers them as having good soul manipulation, and going by your standards their soul manipulation would be insanely good.

About the world class items, why am i the one being condemned for saying that the claim they are superior to aqua is an outlier when nobody has shown any valid feats from world class items and their best "feat" is basically resisting a 7-B attack.

And a sidenote does anyone knows how ainz ressurection works?

I apologize for any poor grammar, i'm having trouble posting long coments.

 

[JorgeDaJiboia]

Even in the event she resists it, Grasp Heart stuns you if resisted, in which case two things could happen:
1. Since his main hax is resisted, Ainz would probably teleport away to strategize and buff himself, maybe summon some really strong undead for help

2. Start spamming attack spells like Reality Slash while she's stunned

Her hagoromo protects her from the stun also

 

[FDrybob]

We already showed you several examples of WCI feats, you just won't acknowledge their validity even though they were previously agreed on in a content revision thread. Anyway, we don't know exactly how Ainz's resurrection works since he's never died since the start of the story, but we do know that even low-level resurrection can completely recreate someone's soul if it has been destroyed. Therefore, Ainz's resurrection is probably much more potent than that, but unquantifiably so.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I suppose it would be comparable to shalltears self ressurection item, which instantly revived her after ainz goal of all life is death...

 

[Apeironaxim]

Although I know I'll get outnumbered and dismissed, I still think Shalltear didn't die from TGOALID, but resisted it by using a resurrection effect

One could resist it by using a resurrection effect on themselves within 12 seconds, as Shalltear had.

 

[FDrybob]

In some ways it's better. Ainz's resurrection ring allows him to automatically resurrect without much loss in XP. Shalltear's item had no cost, but was consumable. We don't even know if she still has it after being resurrected by the guild base.

 

[Apeironaxim]

In some ways it's better. Ainz's resurrection ring allows him to automatically resurrect without much loss in XP. Shalltear's item had no cost, but was one-use.

Pretty sure that's due to how NPCs functioned in YGGDRASIL, their levels were static and didn't change from dying

 

[FDrybob]

Either way, resurrection in Overlord is pretty powerful.

 

[JorgeDaJiboia]

From what I understand, his Soul Manipulation Resistance comes from resisting Cure Elim Los Malvar's Soulbreaker Breath, right?

Cure Elim has City Level AP, so if that's Ainz/his WCI best feat I think Aqua can kill him. I know you are all saying its hax and it doesn't scale to AP since it ignores conventional durability, but Ainz is resistant to SM, not immune. Aqua has bypassed AM and EE resistances of characters stronger than Ainz. And its not with a different hax mechanic or anything, she is just stronger. I don't know if there's a better SM resistance feat for Ainz tho.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Last I checked Soul hax was judged on how many souls it affected, AP has nothing to do with it

 

[FDrybob]

JorgeDaJiboia, you'd be right if it wasn't for the fact that Ainz's resistance comes from his world-class item rather than from himself. We know that world items are far more powerful than Aqua, and they can all be resisted by possessing your own world item. There's one among them with existance erasure and soul destruction which is no exception to that rule. Resisting Cure Elim's breath just proved that the resistance applies to all sources of that effect, not just world items themselves. Therefore Ainz's WCI resistance > Aqua's soul manipulation.

 

[Apeironaxim]

From what I understand, his Soul Manipulation Resistance comes from resisting Cure Elim Los Malvar's Soulbreaker Breath, right?
Cure Elim has City Level AP, so if that's Ainz/his WCI best feat I think Aqua can kill him. I know you are all saying its hax and it doesn't scale to AP since it ignores conventional durability, but Ainz is resistant to SM, not immune. Aqua has bypassed AM and EE resistances of characters stronger than Ainz. And its not with a different hax mechanic or anything, she is just stronger. I don't know if there's a better SM resistance feat for Ainz tho.

Stronger as in stronger resistances, or stronger in AP?

If it's AP this point means nothing, as strength of hax resistance is not based on AP unless the series otherwise states