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I don't vote until the CRTs on both sides are finished and implemented. There's just no point to end the match otherwise, since the finished match would be nulled if the CRT finishes with any significant changes approved.
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Ainz vs Aqua (Konosuba) Speed Equal
- Thread starter The_pen_or_the_sword
- Start date
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You're better off making a new thread tbh.
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- #123
Ainz was accepted and is being applied. Ainz and the gaurdians now have resistance to soul manip, existince erasure, reality warping, law manip, mind control, bfr, sealing, and resistance negation.
Conidering that Ill open a new thread after the aqua thread is decided.
Conidering that Ill open a new thread after the aqua thread is decided.
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I don't understand what's so hard to understand about "ongoing CRT", but oh well...
EDIT: AP difference...
EDIT: AP difference...
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- Thread starter
- #129
She can reflect something that doesn't have a vector of travel?
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Oh, here comes "Sasuga, Ainz-sama!" with his unspecified 4D-spacehax-applied deathhax spell that's assisted by the Laws of the Tier Magic System that enables it to circumvent any and all defenses, be it resistances or forcefields or any sort of barriers, and instead directly apply its effects onto the target!
But have no fear! Because Aqua-sama is here! For the supreme goddess Aqua-sama reflecting a vector-less attack is so simple that she could show off her party tricks while doing it! Why? Because she is the one and only Aqua-sama, of course!
Jokes aside, how do the "directly applied" damage from Ainz and the "attack reflection" from Aqua actually work?
But have no fear! Because Aqua-sama is here! For the supreme goddess Aqua-sama reflecting a vector-less attack is so simple that she could show off her party tricks while doing it! Why? Because she is the one and only Aqua-sama, of course!
Jokes aside, how do the "directly applied" damage from Ainz and the "attack reflection" from Aqua actually work?
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- Thread starter
- #132
Ainz thinks death, the person he thinks it at drops dead. He did this with three demihumans in volume thirteen. Literally thought death and the spell death made them drop dead,
Edit ainz death spells don't do damage in any conventional sense, thats why they are considered death hax.
Edit ainz death spells don't do damage in any conventional sense, thats why they are considered death hax.
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- Thread starter
- #133
Here comes susaga ainz sama! Will he use death? Or will he spice it up with true death? Maybe a bit of grasp heart? Which spell with no clear vector will our loving savior use next!
Joking aside aqua may be able to reflect ainz death magic, its why I asked if she had any feats for deflecting vectorless magic.
Joking aside aqua may be able to reflect ainz death magic, its why I asked if she had any feats for deflecting vectorless magic.
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Really? Isn't pretty much everything usually extremely low-balled? IIRC the Demi-Humans in question weren't even half the level of Ainz, i.e. below lvl 50.
But that aside how does the "directly applied" aspect work? What is its "nature"? Spacehax, Lawhax, or even Reality-Warping hax? Or something else? Need to be more specific here.
But that aside how does the "directly applied" aspect work? What is its "nature"? Spacehax, Lawhax, or even Reality-Warping hax? Or something else? Need to be more specific here.
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- Thread starter
- #136
We dont know, he thinks death and the opponent drops dead. Theres no explanation, its a death spell. Ainz never explained it and I doubt the devolopers of yggdrasil ever thought about how the mechanics of death magic worked enough to give us a satisfactory answer.
Yes they were but in Yggdrasil if you were level one hundred and lacked death resistance you were a scrub. According to ainz players of level one hundred had to have immunity to death magic and time stop in order to even take part in high level plays. As has been established multiple times sheer power doesn't give you resistance to ainz death hax, you need a skill or item to provide the resistance in yggdrasil.
Yes they were but in Yggdrasil if you were level one hundred and lacked death resistance you were a scrub. According to ainz players of level one hundred had to have immunity to death magic and time stop in order to even take part in high level plays. As has been established multiple times sheer power doesn't give you resistance to ainz death hax, you need a skill or item to provide the resistance in yggdrasil.
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- Thread starter
- #137
I mean this could be added but its liable to be taken down when aqua's crt is finished plus...wait how long is grace?
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- Thread starter
- #139
Im sorry what?
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- Thread starter
- #141
Ahh sorry the first comment confused me.
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IIRC Despair Aura is the exception due to being based on levels though? At least it never mentioned anything about resistances, but rather about level. Though that's dubious as well since Ainz with Staff was able to affect his lvl 100 subordinates with the Fear effect of Despair Aura I. I don't think Despair Aura V would able to do the same since then Ainz could have just gone through PvP battles like that back in Yggdrassil, it'd be far too overpowered, so the lvl difference probably needs to be higher for each stronger effect of Despair Aura.
But in regards to the application methods of the "direct targeting" death spells, it is rather problematic. You can't just say that "its method not specified, therefore it cannot be blocked, and instead hits the target without fail". With all the low-balling that usually applies to VS Battles, I don't think you can use vagueness as a reason to wank an ability up like that.
That means theoretically a forcefield (that's NOT working based on %-reduction of damage) would be able to block TGOALID, if it prevents the deathspell from reaching Ainz's enemy since TGOALID is said to ignore resistances, but not actual magic-blocking obstacles. I haven't heard anything about it giving the deathspell TGOALID is attached to any sort "obstacle penetration" traits either.
But in regards to the application methods of the "direct targeting" death spells, it is rather problematic. You can't just say that "its method not specified, therefore it cannot be blocked, and instead hits the target without fail". With all the low-balling that usually applies to VS Battles, I don't think you can use vagueness as a reason to wank an ability up like that.
That means theoretically a forcefield (that's NOT working based on %-reduction of damage) would be able to block TGOALID, if it prevents the deathspell from reaching Ainz's enemy since TGOALID is said to ignore resistances, but not actual magic-blocking obstacles. I haven't heard anything about it giving the deathspell TGOALID is attached to any sort "obstacle penetration" traits either.
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- #143
Yeah from what I can tell despair aura is the exception probably due to the fact it wasn't a spell but instead a skill.
I asked on general discussion to see what it was considered, how would you treat it? Theres no vector, nothing hits the opponent, ainz cast death either with thought or word and the opponent drops dead.
So far the only reply I got was its death manip, ainz cast the spell and his opponent dies.
I asked on general discussion to see what it was considered, how would you treat it? Theres no vector, nothing hits the opponent, ainz cast death either with thought or word and the opponent drops dead.
So far the only reply I got was its death manip, ainz cast the spell and his opponent dies.
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- #144
Well a spell known as soul breaker breath was said to peirce resistances and erase the target from existence, much like the world class item longuis. It also completely ignored the wall of skeletons ainz created, so I think peircing resistances in yggdrasil applied to more than just statistical resistances.
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- #145
Honestly this all seems like something to be talked about after aquas crt and after i make a new thread for this fight.
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That might actually warrant a CRT of its own. But regardless, if it scales to level, then someone with higher AP than Ainz (escpacially if it's Tier-wise), would not be affected by it even with the Staff. And I don't think it's spreading instantanously, at least I didn't see any mention of it doing so upon being activated but correct me if I am wrong. But regardless, someone with higher AP/Tier would likely not be affected by it. Deathspells are a different matter, of course.
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Why're people talking about levels with Despair Aura? Why would it be based on level, of all things? In the game, it's effects were to give a passive aura around the user that has a chance to give Instant Death which is probably the thing dealing with levels. In the new world, it's just straight up 100% chance of death for some reason. Let's see
"IIRC Despair Aura is the exception due to being based on levels though? At least it never mentioned anything about resistances, but rather about level. Though that's dubious as well since Ainz with Staff was able to affect his lvl 100 subordinates with the Fear effect of Despair Aura I. I don't think Despair Aura V would able to do the same since then Ainz could have just gone through PvP battles like that back in Yggdrassil, it'd be far too overpowered, so the lvl difference probably needs to be higher for each stronger effect of Despair Aura."
Despair Aura is not based on levels at all. Level probably affected the chance of it activating, which is why it was brought up, but as it's effects are visibly not based on chance at all when the game turned real, it's a moot point. He used it on a group of those Orc guys and they all just dropped dead. 100% casualty is not "a chance" of Instant Death even if you assume that it ramps up to 80% or something.
"But in regards to the application methods of the "direct targeting" death spells, it is rather problematic. You can't just say that "its method not specified, therefore it cannot be blocked, and instead hits the target without fail". With all the low-balling that usually applies to VS Battles, I don't think you can use vagueness as a reason to wank an ability up like that."
Then what do you suggest otherwise? It's effect is literally "I think you're Dead, and now you're dead". No projectile, no travel Time, not even really a cast time. It's what we call in MMOs an "Instant Cast" spell and blocking one is pretty much next to nill in possibility.
No real comment on your last paragraph since it doesn't really relate to Despair Aura discussion ;P
"That might actually warrant a CRT of its own. But regardless, if it scales to level, then someone with higher AP than Ainz (escpacially if it's Tier-wise), would not be affected by it even with the Staff. And I don't think it's spreading instantanously, at least I didn't see any mention of it doing so upon being activated but correct me if I am wrong. But regardless, someone with higher AP/Tier would likely not be affected by it. Deathspells are a different matter, of course."
Once activated, it's a passive aura that's just there, around the user. Not really sure why it spreading instantly or not is important since if it's Spreading speed is being talked about then the match is probably an immediate Speed Blitz Stomp. Already gave my thoughts on the Level thing (Which is, it's never actually mentioned to be affected by levels).
"IIRC Despair Aura is the exception due to being based on levels though? At least it never mentioned anything about resistances, but rather about level. Though that's dubious as well since Ainz with Staff was able to affect his lvl 100 subordinates with the Fear effect of Despair Aura I. I don't think Despair Aura V would able to do the same since then Ainz could have just gone through PvP battles like that back in Yggdrassil, it'd be far too overpowered, so the lvl difference probably needs to be higher for each stronger effect of Despair Aura."
Despair Aura is not based on levels at all. Level probably affected the chance of it activating, which is why it was brought up, but as it's effects are visibly not based on chance at all when the game turned real, it's a moot point. He used it on a group of those Orc guys and they all just dropped dead. 100% casualty is not "a chance" of Instant Death even if you assume that it ramps up to 80% or something.
"But in regards to the application methods of the "direct targeting" death spells, it is rather problematic. You can't just say that "its method not specified, therefore it cannot be blocked, and instead hits the target without fail". With all the low-balling that usually applies to VS Battles, I don't think you can use vagueness as a reason to wank an ability up like that."
Then what do you suggest otherwise? It's effect is literally "I think you're Dead, and now you're dead". No projectile, no travel Time, not even really a cast time. It's what we call in MMOs an "Instant Cast" spell and blocking one is pretty much next to nill in possibility.
No real comment on your last paragraph since it doesn't really relate to Despair Aura discussion ;P
"That might actually warrant a CRT of its own. But regardless, if it scales to level, then someone with higher AP than Ainz (escpacially if it's Tier-wise), would not be affected by it even with the Staff. And I don't think it's spreading instantanously, at least I didn't see any mention of it doing so upon being activated but correct me if I am wrong. But regardless, someone with higher AP/Tier would likely not be affected by it. Deathspells are a different matter, of course."
Once activated, it's a passive aura that's just there, around the user. Not really sure why it spreading instantly or not is important since if it's Spreading speed is being talked about then the match is probably an immediate Speed Blitz Stomp. Already gave my thoughts on the Level thing (Which is, it's never actually mentioned to be affected by levels).
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Since when was magic in konosuba evil? The person using it might be, but it is estabilished that people like kazuma with the adventurer class can learn any skill you don't need to be evil to learn drain touch or death, it is class restricted but doesn't make it evil.
Aqua didn't tank drain touch, she negated, drain touch didn't even activate. and having her mana coming in contact with wiz can literally kill her.
I've already adressed why ainz would not be able to comeback if he gets purified.
Since when is saying a 7-B would be able to resist a 6-C soul hax/EE not a NLF?
And, magic resistance in konosuba gives you resistance to death manipulation, Darkness was able to resist the spell "Death" via magic resistance.
"In the end, she turned all the water in the source into regular
warm water.
As a side effect, the pitiful lich was almost purified because
of this powerful cleansing magic."
This purification effect is passive and is shown when she turns tea into water and cleansed a lake, it is later revealed in the volume that the water is actually holy water of the highest quality, highly efective against undead and is able to heal woulds.
isn't death magic based on RNG? If so, she has probability manipulation, and resistance to it.
Aqua didn't tank drain touch, she negated, drain touch didn't even activate. and having her mana coming in contact with wiz can literally kill her.
I've already adressed why ainz would not be able to comeback if he gets purified.
Since when is saying a 7-B would be able to resist a 6-C soul hax/EE not a NLF?
And, magic resistance in konosuba gives you resistance to death manipulation, Darkness was able to resist the spell "Death" via magic resistance.
"In the end, she turned all the water in the source into regular
warm water.
As a side effect, the pitiful lich was almost purified because
of this powerful cleansing magic."
This purification effect is passive and is shown when she turns tea into water and cleansed a lake, it is later revealed in the volume that the water is actually holy water of the highest quality, highly efective against undead and is able to heal woulds.
isn't death magic based on RNG? If so, she has probability manipulation, and resistance to it.
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She needs to activate her prob manip, and she doesnt lead with that
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- #152
Oh sir not in yggdrasil! Ainz death hax don't rely on precentage chance if you don't resist death hax you drop dead. Thats how it was even in Yggdrasil, to take part in high level plays you need resistance to time stop and death hax. You could gain these resistances with certain classes or items but if you didn't have them you drop dead.
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"Since when was magic in konosuba evil? The person using it might be, but it is estabilished that people like kazuma with the adventurer class can learn any skill you don't need to be evil to learn drain touch or death, it is class restricted but doesn't make it evil."
We never said you needed to be evil; however spells have specific elements affiliated with them. Drain Touch is a spell usually reserved for the Undead and is (?) considered a "Dark Magic", which is what Aqua resists/nullifies.
"Aqua didn't tank drain touch, she negated, drain touch didn't even activate. and having her mana coming in contact with wiz can literally kill her."
Never said Aqua didn't resist Drain Touch. But also said that Aqua only resists it because it's a Dark Magic that opposes her own Holy Magics and Goddess status.
"I've already adressed why ainz would not be able to comeback if he gets purified."
No. No you have not.
"Since when is saying a 7-B would be able to resist a 6-C soul hax/EE not a NLF?"
Because Hax is not dependent on AP? What?
"And, magic resistance in konosuba gives you resistance to death manipulation, Darkness was able to resist the spell "Death" via magic resistance."
Again, I have yet to see a citation or context behind this supposed feat. Been asking for it for awhile now.
""In the end, she turned all the water in the source into regular
warm water.
As a side effect, the pitiful lich was almost purified because
of this powerful cleansing magic.""
This sounds like a good feat, what's the context behind it though. Because "In the end" implies an extended period of time and the Lich was woefully underpowered in comparison to Aqua.
"This purification effect is passive and is shown when she turns tea into water and cleansed a lake, it is later revealed in the volume that the water is actually holy water of the highest quality, highly efective against undead and is able to heal woulds."
She cleansed a lake after hours of sitting in it. So not a good feat as it isn't at all combat applicable. Tea into Water is sort of not really a feat of purification since Tea isn't inherently... impure or anything.
"isn't death magic based on RNG? If so, she has probability manipulation, and resistance to it."
No. No it is not. In Overlord, if you don't resist Death Magic and someone uses it on you, you just drop dead. No ifs or buts about it. You either lost a life and used a resurrection item or you're sent back to the nearest respawn point.
We never said you needed to be evil; however spells have specific elements affiliated with them. Drain Touch is a spell usually reserved for the Undead and is (?) considered a "Dark Magic", which is what Aqua resists/nullifies.
"Aqua didn't tank drain touch, she negated, drain touch didn't even activate. and having her mana coming in contact with wiz can literally kill her."
Never said Aqua didn't resist Drain Touch. But also said that Aqua only resists it because it's a Dark Magic that opposes her own Holy Magics and Goddess status.
"I've already adressed why ainz would not be able to comeback if he gets purified."
No. No you have not.
"Since when is saying a 7-B would be able to resist a 6-C soul hax/EE not a NLF?"
Because Hax is not dependent on AP? What?
"And, magic resistance in konosuba gives you resistance to death manipulation, Darkness was able to resist the spell "Death" via magic resistance."
Again, I have yet to see a citation or context behind this supposed feat. Been asking for it for awhile now.
""In the end, she turned all the water in the source into regular
warm water.
As a side effect, the pitiful lich was almost purified because
of this powerful cleansing magic.""
This sounds like a good feat, what's the context behind it though. Because "In the end" implies an extended period of time and the Lich was woefully underpowered in comparison to Aqua.
"This purification effect is passive and is shown when she turns tea into water and cleansed a lake, it is later revealed in the volume that the water is actually holy water of the highest quality, highly efective against undead and is able to heal woulds."
She cleansed a lake after hours of sitting in it. So not a good feat as it isn't at all combat applicable. Tea into Water is sort of not really a feat of purification since Tea isn't inherently... impure or anything.
"isn't death magic based on RNG? If so, she has probability manipulation, and resistance to it."
No. No it is not. In Overlord, if you don't resist Death Magic and someone uses it on you, you just drop dead. No ifs or buts about it. You either lost a life and used a resurrection item or you're sent back to the nearest respawn point.
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Even if hax had a tier, Ainz's resistance to soul manipulation and existence erasure is from his world item, and world items are each created from and contain the power of an entire world. That's far higher than Aqua's High 6-C. Also, there is a fair chance that Ainz's resurrection would work even if his soul was purified, since high-level resurrection in Overlord is capable of completely restoring your soul.
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What is the max people affected by a world item's soul manip
Being called a world item doesn't give it planet level potency
Being called a world item doesn't give it planet level potency
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- #156
Soul manip we're not sure but a world class item was used to seal off a world. Another used to rewrite the laws of magic.
So far weve seen it resist a technique meant to rip the soul from the body and erase them from existence.
edit said technique affected five beings of level ninty (ten levels below ainz) with far suppior defensive stats, twelve demons and several night liches.
So far weve seen it resist a technique meant to rip the soul from the body and erase them from existence.
edit said technique affected five beings of level ninty (ten levels below ainz) with far suppior defensive stats, twelve demons and several night liches.
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It's not from being called a world item. Each one was canonically created from a leaf of Yggdrasil, and each leaf is an entire world. They're each at least that powerful, and one of them, called Ahura Mazda, was capable of dealing constant damage to all evil entities in the entire world it was used in. Another one called Five Elements Overcoming is capable of changing the fundamental laws of magic itself. So yeah, Ainz's resistance to Soul Manip and EE is through the roof.
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@Akreious
This is what I found for Despair Aura:
Clearly not based on only "chance". Having a 3x higher level probably just raised the chance to 100% against the trolls and ogres. Or rather, where does the "based on chance" claim even come from?
Also the initial activating does not seem to be instantanous, but rather spreads at the speed of wind, relative to Ainz's position (so if he moves forward it spreads at the speed of Ainz + speed of wind in that direction). Though I'd assume that afterwards it sticks to Ainz, so when Ainz teleports, the Aura teleports alongside him.
This is what I found for Despair Aura:
ÒÇîDespair AuraÒÇì. Besides inflicting a fear effect, it could reduce the stats of its victims. Normally, it would not have an effect on the level one hundred NPCs, but on this occasion, its effects had been strengthened by the Staff of Ainz Ooal Gown. | ||
~ LN vol. 1, ch. 2 |
"That's… enough." Speaking with a cold, crystal clear voice, Ainz pointed his right-hand greatsword at the Wise King of the Forest and activated his skill. ÒÇîDespair Aura VÒÇì. Since its instant death effect was too strong, he decided to reduce its potency and instead activated ÒÇîDespair Aura I'sÒÇì fear effect. A cold, soul-chilling vapor gusted out from Ainz The moment that mass of cold air washed over the Wise King of the Forest, every single one of its hairs stood on end, and it rolled over with surprising speed. All he could see was its silvery fur, and its soft, defenseless belly. | ||
~ LN vol. 2, ch. 3 |
Ainz activated one of his abilities, which he had not had the chance to use, and was too powerful for this world. [Despair Aura V (Instant Death).] The surging aura billowed out from Ainz. The Trolls, Ogres and Gu went limp and collapsed like puppets whose strings had been cut, slumping to the ground. The fallen monsters did not move. It was clear that although their bodies were still warm, the flames of their life had been utterly extinguished. An old man's voice rang through the silent cave. "What… what didst...thou do?" The Naga was curled up into a ball, doing his best to stay away from Ainz. Ainz turned around and replied: "I simply used a skill. Trolls can regenerate, but that does not immunize them to instant death attacks… honestly, you lot are worthless. I was simply thinking that rather than slaughtering you all outright, I should see what uses you might have, but since they refused to bend the knee, I decided to kill them all." | ||
~ LN vol. 8, ch. Side 2 (2/2) |
Also the initial activating does not seem to be instantanous, but rather spreads at the speed of wind, relative to Ainz's position (so if he moves forward it spreads at the speed of Ainz + speed of wind in that direction). Though I'd assume that afterwards it sticks to Ainz, so when Ainz teleports, the Aura teleports alongside him.
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- #159
This thread has gotten massivly derailed death aura should be discussed in general discussion threads...
edit especially since it lacks relevance to this thread.
edit especially since it lacks relevance to this thread.
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I was just asking if it was RNG, if not that's okay
the tea and lake were used to show how her divine aura is passive.
The context of the citation: kazuma's party was fighting one of the demon king generals who was contaminating the water suply of her city and she purified the water as a side effect Wiz was incapacitated for a few days.
Magic in konosuba isn't evil, the people using it are, but so is Ainz.
just look at Darkness profile it is listed death resistance.
the soul hax: Aqua has way more power than Ainz and she is his natural weakness there's no way he will resist being purified and he will not comeback because it's more like his soul will just move on from this world.
I've already said all of this things before why is everyone ignoring that and making the same arguments
and why nobody is counting the votes for Aqua?
the tea and lake were used to show how her divine aura is passive.
The context of the citation: kazuma's party was fighting one of the demon king generals who was contaminating the water suply of her city and she purified the water as a side effect Wiz was incapacitated for a few days.
Magic in konosuba isn't evil, the people using it are, but so is Ainz.
just look at Darkness profile it is listed death resistance.
the soul hax: Aqua has way more power than Ainz and she is his natural weakness there's no way he will resist being purified and he will not comeback because it's more like his soul will just move on from this world.
I've already said all of this things before why is everyone ignoring that and making the same arguments
and why nobody is counting the votes for Aqua?
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