A thread to adressing Servants 4-D Invulnearability once and for all

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

This was happened on Saber Artoria vs Luffy and it bombed so hard, even after it was closed i have a feeling that this thing need to be debated further
Thus i'm making this thread to debating the issues of servant invulnearability being 4-D, remember folks be civil and don't be heated for all of sudden, no making fun/mocking (like lmao, kekw, etc), and others thing that gonna provoke of either sides

Okay starting from mine, so the arguments of 4-D invul was from here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-global-hax-revisions.123210/
In other hands, this exist as well: https://vsbattles.com/threads/servants-invulnerability-downgrade.123503/
Either peoples are too heated to the point forgetting this thread or just didn't know it exist, but i think it's important to bring this up again (or maybe not, depend tbh)

I'm not good at starting something big like this but i'll take the risk by starting this, the rest is yours

 

[Moritzva]

I'll be watching. Behave, or be whipped.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Following

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'll be watching. Behave, or be whipped.

Thanks, i feel my warning wouldn't be enough so a staffs observing this thread under control is a welcome

 

[ElixirBlue]

Following (Or rather, try following)

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'll be watching. Behave, or be whipped.

harder

 

[Zencha9]

I already voiced my opinion on this i think it's dumb to equalize magic in fate to other verses and treat it as they always had "mystery"

 

[Paul_Frank]

Mystery being 4d is already the case, yes, it's just sorta been ignored because the people behind all the Fate revisions don't really do matches. And the second thread in the OP (the downgrade one) was rejected after more examples were brought up to show that they're in fact, just immune to that stuff

The main point of contention is honestly just what counts as mystery and if it should be given out for matches

Based on the rules of the site (the whole you don't gain powers from verse equal, with mystery very much being a power as it grants abilities, resistances etc), it shouldn't be given via verse equal or anything of the sort, so no one else can really get it out of universe, meaning opponents in threads would have to have good enough invulnerability negation of their own (without mystery) in order to have matches

Even ignoring the above, the stuff people think gives mystery is far too lax, any sort of magical or mystical thing is not granting mystery, as there's magic in universe that has none, things unknown to humanity is a stretch because Nasu humanity (which would be the litmus for granting mystery if we did that still), knows a lot, and/or can do a lot, and it's moreso that it has to be unknowable than just unknown.

Additionally, it's not as if just having mystery at all is enough, there's an example in mats I think, talking about how if someone got mystery because they're like 500 years old, a servant would just negate their powers still and take 0 damage from their strikes still, because you have to be a mystery on par with them, not just have mystery in general (hence stuff like "most mages can't beat servants" cause the servants will just ignore and/or null all their spells and one shot them, despite their spells having mystery)

TL;DR

Mystery already is accepted as 4d, we are way too lax on what we consider to grant enough mystery to affect a servant, and mystery shouldn't be granted anyway because of the explict rule against doing that stuff (the reason people don't just gain high level sword logic or something when fighting Oryx and Crota and stuff, or the guardian's demiurgic gun stuff)

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Paul is right. Feel how you want about how we rate Mystery, it does not fall under what verse equalization should give.

There are numerous powers you can by being a Mystery (Invulnerability, power null, a buttload of resistances, all of which are already accepted, higher AP/speed). Verse equalization is just our means to allow verses to interact without having to deal with semantic "genjutsu doesn't work because ki isn't chakra" arguments. It does not let you ignore an entire power system given by a series, allow you to access that power system by defaut, or even give you entirely new powers in the first place.

 

[Moritzva]

I absolutely do not know enough about Fate nor One Piece to give a shit, but I will point out that the reason why people may be confused by that explanation is that "mystery" generally seems associated with anything supernatural. If someone approaches it with the perspective of "a character weak to fire is weak to fire, no matter what verse the fire came from", then if they see mystery as "can only be hit by supernatural things", then they'll likely assume any character with supernatural abilities would be able to hit them.

Doesn't really matter to me whether that's true or not, but understanding that perspective is probably vital to sorting out disagreements on this subject and would be a basis for any debates over if verse equalization would give it or not.

I don't have an opinion either way.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So what's the best we can do regarding this issue?

 

[Jinsye]

The easiest answer is to just note it in Fate/ matches. It might invalidate 99.9% of Fate/ matches due to invulnerability but we strive for accuracy even in regards to vs battles.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The rule that exists prevents just granting abilities or power systems to opponents (which as mentioned, is the reason people don't just get given high level sword logic or guardian law manip when facing Destiny), which is exactly what we currently do with mystery

So if we stopped doing that like we're supposed to, then yeah, Fate loses a lot of potential matchups because the opponent now needs invulnerability negation and stuff

Basically just start mentioning that mystery isn't granted to the opponent with verse equal or whatever whenever there's a thread made.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

However, based on what Paul said i think the peoples behind all of Fate revisions are only care for upgrade beyond the limit but not thinking for the matches
Maybe this example is weird but it's like invalidate the speed equalization but not thinking the matches (sorry impress, i just use an example, no hard feeling, okay?)

The easiest answer is to just note it in Fate/ matches. It might invalidate 99.9% of Fate/ matches due to invulnerability but we strive for accuracy even in regards to vs battles.

The rule that exists prevents just granting abilities or power systems to opponents (which as mentioned, is the reason people don't just get given high level sword logic or guardian law manip when facing Destiny), which is exactly what we currently do with mystery

So if we stopped doing that like we're supposed to, then yeah, Fate loses a lot of potential matchups because the opponent now needs invulnerability negation and stuff

Basically just start mentioning that mystery isn't granted to the opponent with verse equal or whatever whenever there's a thread made.

So basically forbidding Fate to have a matches?
Okay what i said is kind of funny but any options beside that? I know accuracy is the main part of vsbw but we can't ignore the fun as well

 

[Jinsye]

You can restrict the invulnerability, just remember that it's not possible to add them to profiles.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You can restrict the invulnerability, just remember that it's not possible to add them to profiles.

Thats the thing as well, maybe i'm the only one here but restrict an abilities that it can't be added to the profiles feels not right

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Thats the thing as well, maybe i'm the only one here but restrict an abilities that it can't be added to the profiles feels not right

Same. But honestly, IMO, doing this to servant invulnerability is essentially equal to "this site saying that speed equal matches are no longer valid" for Nasuverse matches or something like that; it, essentially, makes it so that the only people who can fight against servants are people from within their only verse or with a rare form of hax that a lot of folks don't have in the tier that Servants are in.

It just seems too extreme to me.

 

[Jinsye]

I'm not sure what to say then. You're not allowed to restrict immortalities and abilities from characters in thematic matches to make it more fair, so either we standardize the rules to include Fate/ or we make a weird exception which can set bad precedents.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Same. But honestly, IMO, doing this to servant invulnerability is essentially equal to "this site saying that speed equal matches are no longer valid" for Nasuverse matches or something like that; it, essentially, makes it so that the only people who can fight against servants are people from within their only verse or with a rare form of hax that a lot of folks don't have in the tier that Servants are in.

It just seems too extreme to me.

And to add as well, rare form of hax (if my guess is right, you mean smurf?) opponents are tend to be such an headache and can caused the chaotic/heated atmosphere so better cost to avoid it

I'm not sure what to say then. You're not allowed to restrict immortalities and abilities from characters in thematic matches to make it more fair, so either we standardize the rules to include Fate/ or we make a weird exception which can set bad precedents.

The former seems a good idea, but it seems that Paul, Zencha, and Crimson doesn't supporting it at all based what they said above
I'll let the others think about it

 

[Purgy]

Obviously we aren't going to add a rule disallowing abilities a character rightfully has just so more vs threads can be made with them, this is an indexing site first and foremost, vs threads aren't even secondary.

If the ability is valid then it's valid, that's it.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Obviously we aren't going to add a rule disallowing abilities a character rightfully has just so more vs threads can be made with them, this is an indexing site first and foremost, vs threads aren't even secondary.

If the ability is valid then it's valid, that's it.

But where's the fun of it if the result make 99.9% of Fate characters unusable? Just saying

 

[Vietthai96]

What in the world happened when i'm sick?????

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

What in the world happened when i'm sick?????

Just read the OP above, you'll get the idea
And i dunno but seeing peoples like-bomb those objections made me feel pressured

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

I agree with Paul. Not all magical or supernatural things in the Nasuverse have enough mystery to negate the Servant's invulnerability, because a Servant has reached the high level / divine mystery. As well as other verses, if they have a mystery but have not matched the Servant's mystery in the end all their attacks will be negated.

For the record, Servants' bodies are made of ether and spiritron, not of physical substance, even when they change to their material form they are still considered as spirits that require mystery to be able to harm them.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I agree with Paul. Not all magical or supernatural things in the Nasuverse have enough mystery to negate the Servant's invulnerability, because a Servant has reached the high level / divine mystery. As well as other verses, if they have a mystery but have not matched the Servant's mystery in the end all their attacks will be negated.

For the record, Servants' bodies are made of ether and spiritron, not of physical substance, even when they change to their material form they are still considered as spirits that require mystery to be able to harm them.

How about my and the others thought?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Hold on, let me look into this as well.

Additionally, it's not as if just having mystery at all is enough, there's an example in mats I think, talking about how if someone got mystery because they're like 500 years old, a servant would just negate their powers still and take 0 damage from their strikes still, because you have to be a mystery on par with them, not just have mystery in general (hence stuff like "most mages can't beat servants" cause the servants will just ignore and/or null all their spells and one shot them, despite their spells having mystery)

I think we need to look into that statement and see if you-remember that correctly too.
Overall neutral since this warrant a investigation on mystery from Nasuverse

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

How about my and the others thought?

Which one?

If it's for the sake of vs thread idk

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Spoiler

Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servant's also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters.... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.

A: All I can is they're both powerful.... They're both beings that live in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes done to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, Earth rules won't even apply to ORT in the first place and Primate Murder has the super advantage against primates so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.”

“A general term representing activities that artificially re-enact Mysteries/Miracles.

Although there were some differences depending on traditions and schools, the basic principle was still "the transformation of the magical energy that exists within the practitioner or the environment".
The practitioner would issue Commands according to the Foundation (System) of his school, and this would cause the execution of a predetermined Program.
Magical energy was the electrical current required to deliver the command.
Although magecraft gave the impression of omnipotence, it fundamentally produced Mystery through the principle of equivalent exchange.
It was possible to transform one thing into another, but it was impossible to produce something from nothing.
However, the essence of magecraft as a discipline was to challenge that "Nothingness", and endeavor towards the impossible. Large-scale spells such as the so-called Grand Sorceries, Grand Rituals were really purposeless if not for attempting to reach " " (Kara) or True Magic.
Kara no Kyoukai was a story of one magus' attempt at challenging "Nothingness".”

“A magical theory engraved into the world. Its strength is greatly influenced by the faith and the collective unconscious of the people.

As a Mystery propagates, it loses power. However, the reason they become more stable as knowledge about them spreads, though it may seem contradictory at first glance, is because of this system of Magical Foundations.
In the present day, the most widespread and most powerful Magical Foundation is the “Teachings of God,” used by the Holy Church.
Of course, there also exist families who develop magical formulas entirely independent of such Foundations, and weirdos like Flat who “build an entirely new formula from scratch every time.”

“

It is the law that a divine mystery will be eliminated by a greater divine mystery.

“



>Q: Will it be possible to repair the antique katana now that it’s broken? <Yasunosuke>

Nasu: Even if it was reforged, the years it had accumulated before would be lost.
Takeuchi: A lot of people asked this question. Since I thought it was going to be Shiki’s final weapon, too, I was pretty shocked when it broke almost as soon as it finally appeared!
Nasu: That’s how ultimate weapons should be.”

[ /SPOILER]

 

[HammerStrikes219]

So in a nutshell, the 500 years old sword mentioned by @Paul_Frank is referring to Shiki’s broken antique sword from KnK.

It loses mystery from being broken.

 

[Zencha9]

why don't we make different kinds of vs battles to solve this like idk make official vs battles and another form of vs battles
(idk what to name it unofficial vs threads?, fun vs threads?)
where you can restrict stuff like a passive a character has that needs to be turned on or something

 

[Greatsage13th]

Does 4D invulnerability work against non-magic as well?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It is the law that a divine mystery will be eliminated by a greater divine mystery.

Does 4D invulnerability work against non-magic as well?

Yes, but I am currently looking through the more relevant mats regarding mystery in general.


“Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servant's also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters.... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.

A: All I can tell is they're both powerful.... They're both beings that live in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes down to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, Earth rules won't even apply to ORT in the first place and Primate Murder has the super advantage against primates so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.”

1. 
   

   “A magical theory engraved into the world. Its strength is greatly influenced by the faith and the collective unconscious of the people.

   As a Mystery propagates, it loses power. However, the reason they become more stable as knowledge about them spreads, though it may seem contradictory at first glance, is because of this system of Magical Foundations.
   In the present day, the most widespread and most powerful Magical Foundation is the “Teachings of God,” used by the Holy Church.
   Of course, there also exist families who develop magical formulas entirely independent of such Foundations, and weirdos like Flat who “build an entirely new formula from scratch every time.”

 

[Greatsage13th]

So invulnerability that works against mystery and no mystery...this seems complex.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm not going to argue much for either side since I disagree with current Nasu stuff in general and lack the time to go over the whole thing.

An early apology for typos, I'm on my phone and its screen is busted.

But-

there's magic in universe that has none

Which would be..? I see general claims about Spiriton Hacking lacking mystery, but I don't remember any basis for that claim in the games (or novels, now that Strange aknowledged it).

Nasu humanity (which would be the litmus for granting mystery if we did that still), knows a lot, and/or can do a lot, and it's moreso that it has to be unknowable than just unknown.

Mystery isn't disqualified as soon as a single individual human becomes aware of something's function, it's specifically noted that scientists hoarding knowledge in ancient times allowed things to retain mystery, I believe it was in Lord El-Meloi.

And what do you mean "unknowable"? We know for a fact that most Mysteries can be learned fully by science as time goes by, which is why even True Magic could be downgraded into Magecraft once science goes far enough. Hell, we're even told the materialisation of the soul is required for space colonisation, aren't we?

because a Servant has reached the high level / divine mystery.

See, this is also something I see going around a lot, but how can that be rationalized with Magic Resistance being a skill?

EMIYA, a supposed divine mystery beyond anything a modern magus can achieve, has a Magic Resistance of D rank, making him only immune to single action spells like Gandr, but not anything with actual chants, being compared to a simple magic warding amulet. Others with E rank can't even shrug off that much, and just get slightly less damage from magic.

How can Servants be universally immune to lesser mysteries than their summoning is, when it's stated that only those with A rank magic resistance are truly untouchable to modern magecraft? Also, I'm 99% sure it's noted MR doesn't even do anything against raw magic beams, just spells.

Their immunity is more provided to them being spiritual entities. As soon as they become materialized by the grail mud, items with magical energy can kill them also.

If someone like Shakespeare got slammed by Gandrs, he'd become sick, regardless of it being a standardized spell with low mystery

 

[FallenMaou2234]

See, this is also something I see going around a lot, but how can that be rationalized with Magic Resistance being a skill?

EMIYA, a supposed divine mystery beyond anything a modern magus can achieve, has a Magic Resistance of D rank, making him only immune to single action spells like Gandr, but not anything with actual chants, being compared to a simple magic warding amulet. Others with E rank can't even shrug off that much, and just get slightly less damage from magic.

Just give any individual who can recite any spells above Two bars in the context of Nasu invunrability Negation ez

Was planning on watching from the sidelines but well I thought I'd just chime in a little. Sure Emyia's MR can be bypassed by Magecraft with more than two verses but what of it??? Mystery accumulates over time no?? Kanesada Kuji is a prime example of that. Magecraft techniques in and of themselves have been passed down since the end of the age of the Gods they've been around for centuries at the very least even if the mage themself is a first generation mage their magecraft techniques likely are not in the same boat. It's the same thing with Magic Circuit's and magic crests a lot of these are passed down through generations. So I don't see why modern Magi being able to hurt Servants is a point of contention here. If it can bypass MR it simply means there was enough mystery to bypass it.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So in a nutshell, the 500 years old sword mentioned by @Paul_Frank is referring to Shiki’s broken antique sword from KnK.

It loses mystery from being broken.

No I meant this

A fantastic race.
As it sounds, they are beings that exist only in fantasy.
Demihumans like sprites and giants.
Demonic beasts like demons and dragons.
As their very existence is a "divine mystery", it is said that they themselves surpass magic.

It is the law that a divine mystery will be eliminated by a greater divine mystery.
As magic stored its power in knowledge,
the fantastic races store their power in their long lifespan.
Even if one masters magic as a human, that is only about the last five hundred years.
For those who have lived since ancient times, a five hundred year old divine mystery is not even worthy competition.

It's about how the mystery of magic only goes back like 500 years most of the time in terms of mystery, so high enough level stuff (being from the ancient times), just can't be affected by it.

Which would be..? I see general claims about Spiriton Hacking lacking mystery, but I don't remember any basis for that claim in the games (or novels, now that Strange aknowledged it).

Spiriton hacking lacking mystery, I assume, comes from the fact that by 2030 its just widespread technology, not some thing only select few magi use because it's useless like in current times. That would just cause it to have no mystery, its not directly stated because by 2030, no one really uses any sort of magecraft anymore so no one would talk in terms of mystery.

As for what I was referring to, in KnK Touko comments on magic being nearly dead in general, and explains mages and such and how they work, ending by saying that without mystery, magecraft and mages would weaken, they wouldn't go away, as they just become mundane methods of things. So they still exist, just without mystery despite being magical.

Case Files also mentions Shugendo just not caring about mystery, now yes, that doesn't necessarily mean that it has none already, but it implies that like the case with the mundane stuff Touko mentioned, it'd still work even without it, just weaker.

Mystery isn't disqualified as soon as a single individual human becomes aware of something's function, it's specifically noted that scientists hoarding knowledge in ancient times allowed things to retain mystery, I believe it was in Lord El-Meloi.

I never said it is? Humanity in Nasu just knows a lot, or believes certain things don't exist, hence so few things having mystery.

And what do you mean "unknowable"? We know for a fact that most Mysteries can be learned fully by science as time goes by, which is why even True Magic could be downgraded into Magecraft once science goes far enough. Hell, we're even told the materialisation of the soul is required for space colonisation, aren't we?

I mean it has to be unknowable within the bounds of what science has advanced to at that point. That's been shown as what gives large amounts of mystery, as opposed to just being unknown (as in, the amount of mystery that'd actually get you the ability to affect stuff like servants). Using the example of true magic you brought up, they're 5 things that can't be understood with science and replicated in other ways as of now, hence them having more mystery.

As for the space colonization thing, no I don't think we are told that, as space colonization occurs without it, and is possible without it.

See, this is also something I see going around a lot, but how can that be rationalized with Magic Resistance being a skill?

I mean the easy explanation for how MR is still a skill despite this, is just that the MR skill is for things that have enough mystery to affect them. We know it isn't just the MR skill that grants their immunity, given the whole thing about Medea (a caster without the skill) being able to beat any modern mage up to and including like, Ciel, Touko and Aoko for instance. We also see during the fight with Rin that even while playing around, the second Rin even tried to attack using magic, Caster just nullified it without a spell of her own or anything, it just stopped in front of her and disappeared. It's further stated that for Ciel to win, she'd need like, the 7th scripture, which conveniently is something that has enough mystery.

It's like with Wuzhiqi and Lugh, they have so much mystery that they can ignore the majority of modern magecraft (in Lugh's case actually all of it) but things with more or equal mystery do exist and thus get to affect them. For Lugh its Mr "Strongest Type Moon Protagonist", for Wuzhiqi, whatever they were using to keep her busy while Waver gave the pep talk to Ergo. It'd be the same case with servants, they're divine mysteries and thus even people without MR are untouchable to the majority of mages, not all though.

In fact, Servants are noted as being Ghost Liners, the greatest type of familiar, on par in terms of mystery, with Elementals, Nature, Animal, and Guardian Spirits, etc, and those do in fact just like, generally negate most modern stuff.

They're also supposed to be on par with the majority of the 27 DAA minus like, ORT and the obvious outliers. The majority of them are old enough to resist the majority of modern stuff as well (some reaching like, 2k years old) which would mean servants can as well.

So it's pretty evident all together that the MR skill sorta just functions as something which negates the remaining stuff that doesn't get stopped by the mystery gap, with its own levels after that, eventually making the user immune to all magic in the modern day as opposed to just a lot of it. And even if that argument isn't satisfactory for whatever reason, there's so much stuff showing that a certain level of mystery shuts down most magecraft and then saying servants are at that exact level either way.

Also, I'm 99% sure it's noted MR doesn't even do anything against raw magic beams, just spells.

Also yes, it does work on just beams, that's the entire reason Astolfo with the book could bring Sieg to the Gardens despite being blasted with beams of energy, it raised his MR.

Their immunity is more provided to them being spiritual entities. As soon as they become materialized by the grail mud, items with magical energy can kill them also

That's the case even without being materialized, strong enough magical objects (which would mean it has enough mystery too) can harm one. And what the line about materialized servants eaten by Sakura actually says, is that strong enough Thaumaturgical Instruments can bypass their shadows, not even kill them, just bypass their protection.

But all in all that's not really the main point here. The main point, at least as brought up by me and Crimson and whoever else, is that verse equal by the rules just like, can't give mystery to people. It'd be granting powers and a power system to people for the sake of a match, which isn't what it's for, as seen with the Destiny examples I mentioned where you aren't allowed to do that. It's just meant to make equivalent energy systems count as the same for the purpose of things working or not working (i.e genjutsu working outside of Naruto cause of the Chakra stuff)

The amount of mystery granted by certain things just doesn't really matter if no one gains that benefit outside of the verse.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

It's about how the mystery of magic only goes back like 500 years most of the time in terms of mystery, so high enough level stuff (being from the ancient times), just can't be affected by it.

Fair enough I suppose

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I agree with Paul.

 

[Vietthai96]

To be fair, the entire Mystery thing is special mechanic of the verse, giving it to Nasuverse's character is essentially giving them homeground advantage. It is like giving Canon and Toei Dragon Ball characters acausality type 1 since the verse work on the mechanic of spliting timeline to prevent time paradox.

So now either we decide a threshold where these Mystery become useless (how much age is needed, what amount of "supernatural" is required), equalizing it in vsbattle to a degree that at least other character from the other verse can interacting with Naseverse characters to a degree, or eliminating it in vs battle. If we just going around saying that hey you can't bypass it, you need 4-D invul negation, or higher-D power, etc......it is essentially saying that other characters/verses must follow Nasuverse's rule and being forced a restriction called Mystery upon themselves. So now tell me when i thrown a guy with.....uh......oh, 1 billion years old throw his below 4D supernatural power at a servant, are you all gonna saying that it will not work because of Mystery??

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Sure Emyia's MR can be bypassed by Magecraft with more than two verses but what of it???

It means that you cannot claim the Mystery of Servants is as an insta-neg for lesser mystery magecraft.

Mystery accumulates over time no??

It also disperses for spells with the number of users, and Gandr is one of the most commonly used spells in the verse. Not something that could compare to a miracle beyond modern-day like the summoning of Servants.

Magecraft techniques in and of themselves have been passed down since the end of the age of the Gods

Was Solomon's era in the Age of Gods? And he very specifically broke off from the gods. And most magecraft is also up to five centuries old.
And, modern standardized magecraft is inferior to stuff from the age of gods regardless of age, that's beat into our heads in the verse over and over.

And magecraft itself is outright degrading in power: "In this Servant's era of origin - when magecraft still retained its ancient strength - countless wielders of the arcane arts attempted to bring him down".

So I don't see why modern Magi being able to hurt Servants is a point of contention here.

Because it means Servants aren't by default immune to any Mystery lesser than their summoning itself.

as they just become mundane methods of things.

Well, yes, but that becomes science by then. That's kind of the point of it. As time passes, things that are considered magical cease to be so. That will in the future of Nasu's humanity include souls and life energy. But it wouldn't be magic.

Humanity in Nasu just knows a lot, or believes certain things don't exist, hence so few things having mystery.

Something that humanity believes cannot exist, but still does, will still have mystery.

And what specifically would humanity in Nasu not believe/know that wouldn't be the same for our humanity?

That's been shown as what gives large amounts of mystery, as opposed to just being unknown

Ah, sure, ghosts will have more mystery due to being well known of but not scientifically proven and stuff, as opposed to some sci-fi gadget humanity can't replicate. Still, being fully unknown is what allows modern magecraft to even ignore B rank magic resistance against Qin Shi Huang: "In general, they are capable of countering magecraft from before the common era, but since magic devised in the Panhuman History that came after that is unknown to the Lostbelt version of Qin Shi Huang, they could breach their defenses."

as in, the amount of mystery that'd actually get you the ability to affect stuff like servants

...But what is that based on?

As for the space colonization thing, no I don't think we are told that, as space colonization occurs without it, and is possible without it.

I swear there was a statement about humans being unable to go with physical bodies as they have it. I'll make sure to save it somewhere if I ever come across it again.

given the whole thing about Medea (a caster without the skill) being able to beat any modern mage up to and including like, Ciel, Touko and Aoko for instance.

...That's because she's a better mage, stated to be in the top 5 in history, with her Divine Words themselves carrying more mystery, not because of her invulnerability. The statement that says "she's a witch from a divine era" is referring to how crazy good she is by modern standards, not her being able to facetank any spell (without preparing spells to block them, her barriers obviously could take it).

We also see during the fight with Rin that even while playing around, the second Rin even tried to attack using magic, Caster just nullified it without a spell of her own or anything, it just stopped in front of her and disappeared.

The very first thing done in that fight is showing that spells can be dispelled with raw magical energy, when Rin blocks Medea's spell.

But beyond that, what do you mean "the second"? The first spell she throws is blocked with a chant, and then Medea absorbs the magical energy of the second volley of attacks. Now, are we going to say that mystery makes you absorb magical energy from spells? Or assume that one of the greatest witches can absorb magical energy from enemies?

And Medea saying "Even though I did play with you, you forced me to compete in magic." would make zero sense if she didn't use magic to block those attacks. Rin also used the same jewels that killed Berserker and are specifically A rank (which isn't just a matter of raw power), so there's no way they lack the mystery to harm a Servant?

It's further stated that for Ciel to win, she'd need like, the 7th scripture, which conveniently is something that has enough mystery.

And it is also immensely powerful.

It's like with Wuzhiqi and Lugh, they have so much mystery that they can ignore the majority of modern magecraft (in Lugh's case actually all of it)

But they are both Phantasmals, who are stated to have higher magic resistance than even Saber (Artoria) in F/SN.

In fact, Servants are noted as being Ghost Liners, the greatest type of familiar, on par in terms of mystery, with Elementals, Nature, Animal, and Guardian Spirits, etc, and those do in fact just like, generally negate most modern stuff.

I think ghostliners are specifically full Heroic Spirits? And anyways, the first phantasmal beast we see on screen with a Servant, Pegasus, is stated to have better magic resistance than Artoria.
And we are outright told that characters with E rank magic resistance flat out cannot ignore magecraft.

"remains at only the minimal level, rank E, that provides light damage mitigation against magecraft rather than full neutralization"

This is Gilgamesh. You cannot tell me he doesn't have reason to have his mystery and be immune to modern magecraft based on it.

But it's made pretty clear that Servants gain their resistance to magecraft based on class and what they had in life, for better or worse, regardless of their mystery by virtue of being a Servant. Some exemples of Class/personal background being the deciding factor: "He did not have any abilities to resist magecraft during life" (Gilgamesh, E/C rank), "As Nero herself has a negligible resistance to magic, the effectiveness of this Skill is pathetically low, even by the normal standards of the Saber class" (C), "Originally a Greek goddess that turned into a monster, she possesses extremely high Magic Resistance" (Medusa, B), "This is due to the effects of the Saber-class and the divinity dwelling within her." (Lakshmibai, A)

So it's pretty evident all together that the MR skill sorta just functions as something which negates the remaining stuff that doesn't get stopped by the mystery gap, with its own levels after that, eventually making the user immune to all magic in the modern day as opposed to just a lot of it.

I just don't agree. Statements are very specifically for magecraft in general, not the super special magecraft that can bypass this invulnerability to modern magic they all supposedly have.