A thread to adressing Servants 4-D Invulnearability once and for all

[CrimsonStarFallen]

To be fair, the entire Mystery thing is special mechanic of the verse, giving it to Nasuverse's character is essentially giving them homeground advantage. It is like giving Canon and Toei Dragon Ball characters acausality type 1 since the verse work on the mechanic of spliting timeline to prevent time paradox.

So now either we decide a threshold where these Mystery become useless (how much age is needed, what amount of "supernatural" is required), equalizing it in vsbattle to a degree that at least other character from the other verse can interacting with Naseverse characters to a degree, or eliminating it in vs battle. If we just going around saying that hey you can't bypass it, you need 4-D invul negation, or higher-D power, etc......it is essentially saying that other characters/verses must follow Nasuverse's rule and being forced a restriction called Mystery upon themselves. So now tell me when i thrown a guy with.....uh......oh, 1 billion years old throw his below 4D supernatural power at a servant, are you all gonna saying that it will not work because of Mystery??

No. Mystery is a power given and wielded by Nasu characters. It's as much homeground advantage as saying Goku has ki.

It's a restriction on anyone else. It's their own power, and if their opponents can't bypass it, too bad for them.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I agree with the Paul.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Oh, yeah I agree with Paul too

 

[Jibz]

Should we make a list of all the invalidated matches thatd occur?

 

[Regidian]

I have to agree with Paul too, i prefer having a good index for the servant than being able to do all sort of match with them

 

[Paul_Frank]

To be fair, the entire Mystery thing is special mechanic of the verse, giving it to Nasuverse's character is essentially giving them homeground advantage. It is like giving Canon and Toei Dragon Ball characters acausality type 1 since the verse work on the mechanic of spliting timeline to prevent time paradox.

So now either we decide a threshold where these Mystery become useless (how much age is needed, what amount of "supernatural" is required), equalizing it in vsbattle to a degree that at least other character from the other verse can interacting with Naseverse characters to a degree, or eliminating it in vs battle. If we just going around saying that hey you can't bypass it, you need 4-D invul negation, or higher-D power, etc......it is essentially saying that other characters/verses must follow Nasuverse's rule and being forced a restriction called Mystery upon themselves. So now tell me when i thrown a guy with.....uh......oh, 1 billion years old throw his below 4D supernatural power at a servant, are you all gonna saying that it will not work because of Mystery??

No, it's more like, as I've mentioned, the case with Destiny and High level Sword Logic/Gun Logic. Those are mechanics which apply to the characters, but are explicitly not just granted via verse equalization to other characters because we don't grant powers or powersets via sba. Like it's just literally a rule that exists already, and is already used, Fate has just ignored it thus far.

So yes, if someone has no way around invulnerability, they simply can't get around it due to the fact that SBA doesn't give them access to a power system. That's kinda how powers work on vsbw, if character A has a power, and character B has no way around it, they don't get access to something to bypass it. No "deciding a threshold" or anything, it's quite simply just a power others don't have.

Well, yes, but that becomes science by then. That's kind of the point of it. As time passes, things that are considered magical cease to be so. That will in the future of Nasu's humanity include souls and life energy. But it wouldn't be magic.

No, they don't cease to be magic, they just lose their mystery. Look at the super widespread spiritron hacking, where spiritron hackers are still considered magic (wizards/mages) despite there being approximately a 0% chance it has mystery still.

Something that humanity believes cannot exist, but still does, will still have mystery.

And what specifically would humanity in Nasu not believe/know that wouldn't be the same for our Mystery.

That's not true actually, that's the case exclusively with the very weird balance with magic being thought to be fake, and mages believing it to be real and using it. Things they don't believe in pretty explicitly lose power, its even stated that the same would happen to magecraft if not for the efforts of mages, the disbelief would make it lose all Mystery.

Ah, sure, ghosts will have more mystery due to being well known of but not scientifically proven and stuff, as opposed to some sci-fi gadget humanity can't replicate. Still, being fully unknown is what allows modern magecraft to even ignore B rank magic resistance against Qin Shi Huang: "In general, they are capable of countering magecraft from before the common era, but since magic devised in the Panhuman History that came after that is unknown to the Lostbelt version of Qin Shi Huang, they could breach their defenses."

That seems to be a caveat exclusive to QSH tbh. Because PHH MR doesn't stop working when we enter lostbelts or singularities and stuff for instance. It's more like QSH's MR is really just a rating for his defenses he created, rather than just the skill

...But what is that based on?

The fact servants are high end mysteries and not generic low ones?

...That's because she's a better mage, stated to be in the top 5 in history, with her Divine Words themselves carrying more mystery, not because of her invulnerability. The statement that says "she's a witch from a divine era" is referring to how crazy good she is by modern standards, not her being able to facetank any spell (without preparing spells to block them, her barriers obviously could take it).

Except the thing is, each of those 3 I listed would surpass her in terms of being a mage.

Ciel is vastly, vastly superior to Rin's max potential, which puts her in the top percentage of clock tower history. She's also referred to constantly as the apex of human potential, so she just arguably scales above the next two.

Touko reached the rank of Grand at the age of 20. Despite the clock tower having 2 magicians, full witches, etc, the rank of Grand has been given out exceedingly few times, to the point that we only know of two people with it ever.

Aoko in terms of firepower and speed, can keep up with a Touko who has like 7 extra magic crests casting stuff the entire time.

In general, each of them would actually just surpass her in terms of being a mage, this also doesn't at all contradict Solomon's statement, as Medea is the only member of this top 5 we know. He wouldn't include himself (he doesn't think he's the best, and flubs his castings), and wouldn't include Merlin, he visibly dislikes him, and Merlin also flubs his castings.

The very first thing done in that fight is showing that spells can be dispelled with raw magical energy, when Rin blocks Medea's spell.

But beyond that, what do you mean "the second"? The first spell she throws is blocked with a chant, and then Medea absorbs the magical energy of the second volley of attacks. Now, are we going to say that mystery makes you absorb magical energy from spells? Or assume that one of the greatest witches can absorb magical energy from enemies?

Yes, Rin blocks a spell via a shield by using up an absurd amount of stored energy, sje was explicitly using stuff beyond her limit each time to match Caster. However as I said, when Rin shoots Caster, the spell just stops, she absorbs the magic energy because the spell literally just goes away, in the VN, Rin explicitly says its "not just nullified" meaning it in fact, was nullified first, in the UBW anime, we see it as the spell being nulled when it reaches Caster. Without a chant or anything, a spell shot at Caster is nullified, and absorbed

And Medea saying "Even though I did play with you, you forced me to compete in magic." would make zero sense if she didn't use magic to block those attacks. Rin also used the same jewels that killed Berserker and are specifically A rank (which isn't just a matter of raw power), so there's no way they lack the mystery to harm a Servant?

That one is a better point though yeah. Medea definitely didn't null it with a spell or anything, but 5 of them can kill Herc so they can bypass mystery requirements, so I guess we just don't know how Medea did it. But it's not an example of the mystery stuff, which is corroborated by the fact that Rin's gem magecraft has like, ancient Mesopotamia as an origin point.

But they are both Phantasmals, who are stated to have higher magic resistance than even Saber (Artoria) in F/SN.

I think ghostliners are specifically full Heroic Spirits? And anyways, the first phantasmal beast we see on screen with a Servant, Pegasus, is stated to have better magic resistance than Artoria.

No, ghostliners are the servants as those are the only ones that can be familiars, normal Heroic Spirits are just Heroic Spirits, and something everyone knows is impossible to reach.

We are not told Pegasus has a better magical resistance than Artoria, instead we're told it's divine protections are better. Thats the stuff divine beasts and stuff on their levels get, its mentioned in regards to Ozymandias as well. We do however, also know that Bellerophon is an outlier in this aspect, as it's only meant to be on the level of Phantasmal Beasts, but has Dragon level defenses and divine protections, dragons are noted to just explicitly be the peak of all phantasmal creatures, besides like, Moby Dick and Typhon level guys, but even they're outranked by some dragons.

We do have an explanation for why Bellerophon has such high protections despite them exceeding its rank however

A Pegasus under the control of Bellerophon would exceed its limits and receive a rank-up in all of its attributes. Furthermore, due to the protection of an immense amount of mana from Bellerophon, the defensive power of the Pegasus would multiply several times

It's noted as well, that among the magical creatures, the Pegasus already has exceptional defense, and Bellerophon, which it's under at every point in FSN when people see it and judge said defenses, boosts them massively. So not only is the thing that surpasses Saber's MR it's divine protections and not magic resistance, but Bellerophon isn't even a good representative of what the average defenses of a creature of its rank should have in that respect.

"remains at only the minimal level, rank E, that provides light damage mitigation against magecraft rather than full neutralization"

This is Gilgamesh. You cannot tell me he doesn't have reason to have his mystery and be immune to modern magecraft based on it.

This doesn't contradict what I said though? That they negate it via the mystery gap and MR just deals with the stuff that isn't negated, so higher end stuff, more major magecraft than normal, stronger mages, etc.

But it's made pretty clear that Servants gain their resistance to magecraft based on class and what they had in life, for better or worse, regardless of their mystery by virtue of being a Servant. Some exemples of Class/personal background being the deciding factor: "He did not have any abilities to resist magecraft during life" (Gilgamesh, E/C rank), "As Nero herself has a negligible resistance to magic, the effectiveness of this Skill is pathetically low, even by the normal standards of the Saber class" (C), "Originally a Greek goddess that turned into a monster, she possesses extremely high Magic Resistance" (Medusa, B), "This is due to the effects of the Saber-class and the divinity dwelling within her." (Lakshmibai, A)

See above for my response to that

I just don't agree. Statements are very specifically for magecraft in general, not the super special magecraft that can bypass this invulnerability to modern magic they all supposedly have.

The statements mention magecraft yeah, that doesn't however mean that its like "you need MR to resist anything magical at all". Given the multitude of things that'd make Servants have that level of power nullifying mystery you can't exactly ignore those and go "well the MR skill exists, so this all is wrong". You'd have to ignore the fact they're meant to be direct rivals to DAA in terms of mystery and power, which is why it comes down to fights of compatibility, the fact that they're the highest rank of familiars on par with or greater than things we know have enough mystery to negate that stuff, etc.

It's not even "super special magecraft" it's just higher end stuff, things above the majority of modern mages. While the people we see in the series definitely give the wrong idea, the majority of mages, in fact, do not have access to the stuff people like Ciel, Rin, Touko, Flat, Laito, and Waver have for instance. Like even Rin's gandr is unironically higher end than an average mage's stuff.

So if a person is immune to the majority of a modern mages stuff, but still needs MR to block stuff like those people's spells, it honestly makes perfect sense. Basically every mage we've seen that has a name or a major role is an exceptional monster compared to the norm. So it's not "super special magecraft" it's just "better than the average mage".

In order to argue that Servants don't have the mystery power null, you'd have to also argue that Servants are the only thing in the verse that doesn't get it, because basically any other sufficiently old thing does, swords (kanesada kuji, a mere 500 years of mystery), high end creatures, (Arcueid, Phantasmal Beasts, Elementals, gods, DAA who servants are equal to) etc. That's kinda absurd when you think about it, servants, something Nasu and other writers considers the apex of power, something beyond the capabilities of most modern mages, something which is used as a defense mechanism by the counter force, is uniquely bad in that their mystery doesn't work like mystery in the rest of the verse. That's what you have to argue to say servants don't have the mystery null

 

[Regidian]

I think ghostliners are specifically full Heroic Spirits? And anyways, the first phantasmal beast we see on screen with a Servant, Pegasus, is stated to have better magic resistance than Artoria.
And we are outright told that characters with E rank magic resistance flat out cannot ignore magecraft.

Ghostliner is mentionned for the two, the habitual problem with Nasu and his distinction of them. But it's just for servant

Pegasus is compared to the dragon in term of resistance so i don't think he is the best example for what you want to tell.

Anyways for the stronger mystery to overcome the weaker one is a thing stated from the Beginning. And for the magecraft used by the magi character weaker than servant in mystery, it's already stated that the strengh of the mystery of a magical crest is done by accomplishments and accumulation through generations so actually they in many case so lower than servant

And most of the magi that servant have fought are from old powerful family.

Fate/stay night - Fate route - Day 10: skyscraper - Sword of Promised Victory
It is the law that a divine mystery will be eliminated by a greater divine mystery

 

[Jinsye]

You guys can just use maguses or whatever. They don't have mystery.

 

[LordGinSama]

The only thing laxed here is how we treat higher dimensional abilities nowadays.


I sttongly disagree with 4-D Invulnerability for Fate Servant's, as i feel like Nasu fans have been gunning for upgrades ever since the Masadaverse was deleted. It also really
doesn't help the case that the thread that got accepted was a notorious Nasuverse wanker but alas till someone removes it (which'll probably be soon as the evidence isn't exactly what I'd call foolproof.) it is what it is. However, the Nasuverse pages here have always been wicked ass in terms of indexing for the profiles. It's honestly worse than Devil May Cry, The Servant Physiology page doesn't state anything about the Invulnerability being 4-D in nature whenever it should.


How that was missed boggles my ******* mind considering it only takes two seconds to implement Higher Dimensional Existence or Manipulation into the Servant Physiology page.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also there should be a note that states and or lists the criteria of having "Mystery."

 

[Regidian]

The only thing laxed here is how we treat higher dimensional abilities nowadays.


I sttongly disagree with 4-D Invulnerability for Fate Servant's, as i feel like Nasu fans have been gunning for upgrades ever since the Masadaverse was deleted. It also really
doesn't help the case that the thread that got accepted was a notorious Nasuverse wanker but alas till someone removes it (which'll probably be soon as the evidence isn't exactly what I'd call foolproof.) it is what it is. However, the Nasuverse pages here have always been wicked ass in terms of indexing for the profiles. It's honestly worse than Devil May Cry, The Servant Physiology page doesn't state anything about the Invulnerability being 4-D in nature whenever it should.


How that was missed boggles my ******* mind considering it only takes two seconds to implement Higher Dimensional Existence or Manipulation into the Servant Physiology page.

It is stated in the MR part. Tho yeah the mystery part is not mentionned directly

Due to Magecraft's nature as magical energy from the soul given form, and the Soul's nature as a higher dimensional form, the resistances and effects listed thereof are at least 4 dimensional in nature, although it should be noted that physical phenomena attacks, like Elemental Manipulation, do not work like that, as they are not spiritual or metaphysical in nature.

 

[LordGinSama]

It is stated in the MR part. Tho yeah the mystery part is not mentionned directly

Due to Magecraft's nature as magical energy from the soul given form, and the Soul's nature as a higher dimensional form, the resistances and effects listed thereof are at least 4 dimensional in nature, although it should be noted that physical phenomena attacks, like Elemental Manipulation, do not work like that, as they are not spiritual or metaphysical in nature.

Basically yeah, a proper explanation is all that's needed to avoid further confusion since the only reason why said confusion exists is because of the well, lack there of a proper explanation.

 

[LordGinSama]

Any author who mentions higher dimensions was probably on acid when they wrote it btw

 

[Moritzva]

Gin, you're getting a little off-topic.

 

[LordGinSama]

Gin, you're getting a little off-topic.

It's called making a reference.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The only thing laxed here is how we treat higher dimensional abilities nowadays.


I sttongly disagree with 4-D Invulnerability for Fate Servant's, as i feel like Nasu fans have been gunning for upgrades ever since the Masadaverse was deleted. It also really
doesn't help the case that the thread that got accepted was a notorious Nasuverse wanker

Little does he know, I'm a Masada wanker too and still got it deleted. Double agent all along gg

Basically yeah, a proper explanation is all that's needed to avoid further confusion since the only reason why said confusion exists is because of the well, lack there of a proper explanation.

Yeah it was just spread across other stuff rather than part of the invul or whatever, the page can be updated to be easier to find I guess

 

[LordGinSama]

Little does he know, I'm a Masada wanker too and still got it deleted. Double agent all along gg

Always knew you were Bush.

Yeah it was just spread across other stuff rather than part of the invul or whatever, the page can be updated to be easier to find I guess.

Yeah I'd definitely suggest just updating it to reflect that. I'd disagree with a note since that's a bit too much but the Higher Dimensional manipulate or existence needs to be added.

 

[Hasty12345]

I do find lack of scans on some Fate profiles do make reading them a bit of a nightmare.

also, I could be misremembering so ignore me if I am, but does the servant physiology blog have references? Iirc all blogs need to have every scan properly referenced.

 

[Regidian]

I do find lack of scans on some Fate profiles do make reading them a bit of a nightmare.

also, I could be misremembering so ignore me if I am, but does the servant physiology blog have references? Iirc all blogs need to have every scan properly referenced.

It have it, tho i don't know if it's properly updated

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The only thing laxed here is how we treat higher dimensional abilities nowadays.


I sttongly disagree with 4-D Invulnerability for Fate Servant's, as i feel like Nasu fans have been gunning for upgrades ever since the Masadaverse was deleted. It also really
doesn't help the case that the thread that got accepted was a notorious Nasuverse wanker but alas till someone removes it (which'll probably be soon as the evidence isn't exactly what I'd call foolproof.) it is what it is. However, the Nasuverse pages here have always been wicked ass in terms of indexing for the profiles. It's honestly worse than Devil May Cry, The Servant Physiology page doesn't state anything about the Invulnerability being 4-D in nature whenever it should.


How that was missed boggles my ******* mind considering it only takes two seconds to implement Higher Dimensional Existence or Manipulation into the Servant Physiology page.

So you disagree with the change because you don't like Nasuverse? This isn't an argument, this is an opinion.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also I agree with Paul on the matter of Invulnerability for Servants.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also I agree with Paul on the matter of Invulnerability for Servants.

Same

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

So back to what i said, what the best thing we can do now?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You guys can just use maguses or whatever. They don't have mystery.

Not much fun to use unlike servants if you ask me

 

[LordGinSama]

So you disagree with the change because you don't like Nasuverse? This isn't an argument, this is an opinion.

Yes absolutely but that's for off site scaling. To be frank I don't really care where it falls, 3-D, 4-D or beyond hence why I acknowledge it as being accepted as per wiki rules.


Try not to solely pay attention to one bit of a comment in order to make a blatant attempt at a strawman fallacy despite me acknowledging the accepted scaling.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So back to what i said, what the best thing we can do now?

Crimson agreed in discord to edit the page and make the mystery stuff more apparent and easier to find, rather than being spread out across it, and then we just don't give it via verse equal.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Crimson agreed in discord to edit the page and make the mystery stuff more apparent and easier to find, rather than being spread out across it, and then we just don't give it via verse equal.

So basically made the whole servants unusable to use

 

[Paul_Frank]

So basically made the whole servants unusable to use

Correct, unless you just do matches that can't be added by restricting it, or against people with invul neg and stuff, characters who can bypass it with their own abilities do exist

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Correct, unless you just do matches that can't be added by restricting it

My pride as match ambassador say no to restrict the abilities that it would make the matches can't be added

or against people with invul neg and stuff, characters who can bypass it with their own abilities do exist

As i said again, most of them are smurf and you are already know how much an headache they are

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

At this point i'm going to officially leave Nasuverse if there's no choice beside making the whole servants unusable
If thats the only choice then so be it

 

[Greatsage13th]

Hmm

 

[Harith0cell]

At this point i'm going to officially leave Nasuverse if there's no choice beside making the whole servants unusable
If thats the only choice then so be it

Well you can try dnd characters to match again servant if you have no characters to make match on.

 

[Vietthai96]

At this point i'm going to officially leave Nasuverse if there's no choice beside making the whole servants unusable
If thats the only choice then so be it

Just delete this verse and then peace will arrive. We already have the: Nasuverse Concept can't be rated with Vsbw system

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

At least people like Shirou, Rin, Kirei-basically any non-servant/vampire character, shouldn't be affected by this. So I can make matches with them!

 

[Sniper670]

Just delete this verse and then peace will arrive. We already have the: Nasuverse Concept can't be rated with Vsbw system

Why

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Well you can try dnd characters to match again servant if you have no characters to make match on.

Most of DnD chars are smurf so nope for me

At least people like Shirou, Rin, Kirei-basically any non-servant/vampire character, shouldn't be affected by this. So I can make matches with them!

Not interesting as servants tbh

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Just delete this verse and then peace will arrive. We already have the: Nasuverse Concept can't be rated with Vsbw system

Ironically this isn't a bad idea per say
But nah let's not go there

 

[Harith0cell]

Most of DnD chars are smurf so nope for me

Not interesting as servants tbh

I thought servant are smurfs to. am I wrong?

 

[Harith0cell]

Also not most of all dnd characters are smurfs in 6-C tier for example imix and pit fiend.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Nah, Servants only have smurf resistances. Sure, quite a few of them have broken abilities or skills, but for the most part, they aren't as broken as smurf folks.