A Review of the speed of Naruto (Verse)

[Damage3245]

Wdym?

I mean if you already agree that some of the characters I'm objecting to being FTL shouldn't be FTL, then that's fine and we don't need to rehash it for those characters.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I meant that Ghost wasn't even proposing Kakuzu to be FTL so the debunking of that isn't necessary

 

[Damage3245]

I meant that Ghost wasn't even proposing Kakuzu to be FTL so the debunking of that isn't necessary

When I started writing the thread, there was a substantially larger list of characters being proposed to be FTL. But my point still stands if Kakuzu ends up Sub-Rel because of that calc thread.

 

[Samlex1234]

Following, will reply to this later.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm not super interested because the whole revisions are kinda messy but I'd like to quickly say something about Kirin and Zetsu.

The issue with using this as an anti feat is pretty clear when you actually examine the entire statement. That being the fact that nearly everything else in the statement is wrong. Zetsu says the following:

it cannon be evaded

Blatantly wrong as we literally see a fatigued half blind Itachi evade it in screen.

What's even worse is that Kakashi being a lightning timer is one of the most consistent things in the verse and something Zetsu should be aware of and yet he says this.

the speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second

Again wrong. Not only is that a measure of time and not speed but lightning doesn't even hit earth in 1/1000 of a second.

the speed of lightning

This one is more debatable but like others mentioned, the databook entry for Kirin can be translated as it moving at the speed of light meaning even him calling it lightning speed would be false.

As bonus, Zetsu even goes on to say Itachi is invincible thanks to his sealing jutsu and shield despite knowing about Kaguya who can quite easily counter both of these, with the sealing canonically not even working on her.

Overall Zetsu here clearly isn't a reliable source of information and really shouldn't be used over any actual solid evidence.

 

[Damage3245]

Blatantly wrong as we literally see a fatigued half blind Itachi evade it in screen.

Itachi does not evade it.

What's even worse is that Kakashi being a lightning timer is one of the most consistent things in the verse and something Zetsu should be aware of and yet he says this.

Technically Kakashi has no feats of actually dodging a lightning bolt so far as I'm aware.

Again wrong. Not only is that a measure of time and not speed but lightning doesn't even hit earth in 1/1000 of a second.

I agree that this bit is badly written by Kishimoto, but it's the information he gave us so we do currently use it.

This one is more debatable but like others mentioned, the databook entry for Kirin can be translated as it moving at the speed of light meaning even him calling it lightning speed would be false.

Which directly contradicts the mehcanics of the jutsu since the whole point of it is that Sasuke is merely guiding natural lightning to a target and he doesn't have any chakra to enhance its speed.

As bonus, Zetsu even goes on to say Itachi is invincible thanks to his sealing jutsu and shield despite knowing about Kaguya who can quite easily counter both of these, with the sealing canonically not even working on her.

Overall Zetsu here clearly isn't a reliable source of information and really shouldn't be used over any actual solid evidence.

I don't believe this matters that much since Kaguya doesn't exist in the world at the time that Zetsu made his statement, but how exactly would she counter those? I don't recall it ever being said that sealing doesn't work on her; especially since she is defeated twice by a gigantic sealing technique.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Also another thing (I swear I'm done after this), the 5 second timer for Pain is kidna a generally inconsistent anti feat. It's no more contradictory to FTL Mifune stuff than it is to literally every other feat that gets the characters above athletic human level. I wholeheartedly believe that the timer is just an negative outlier for the verse and shouldn't be treated as something you base got decisions on.

Otherwise even the most blatantly obvious on screen feats of speed we have would have to drop down to subsonic including the super obvious stuff like kid Sasuke and kid Temari blitzing sound on screen or kid Lee moving FTE while seemingly breaking the sound barrier against Gaara. And naturally 1 bad anti feat can't outweigh the countless feats that contradict it.

 

[Damage3245]

Also another thing (I swear I'm done after this), the 5 second timer for Pain is kidna a generally inconsistent anti feat. It's no more contradictory to FTL Mifune stuff than it is to literally every other feat that gets the characters above athletic human level. I wholeheartedly believe that the timer is just an negative outlier for the verse and shouldn't be treated as something you base got decisions on.

Otherwise even the most blatantly obvious on screen feats of speed we have would have to drop down to subsonic including the super obvious stuff like kid Sasuke and kid Temari blitzing sound on screen or kid Lee moving FTE while seemingly breaking the sound barrier against Gaara. And naturally 1 bad anti feat can't outweigh the countless feats that contradict it.

Absolutely. Nowhere in my OP did I propose that we scale the verse entirely based off of a single scene. But it does factor into how we have to look at the verse, just as we can entertain the high-end outliers too and consider their relevance.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Itachi does not evade it.

He by definition does. At least partially that is.

And that's not even mentioning the distance. Cumunolimbus are usually 2-10km in the sky while Kirin was at best 50-100m from Itachi as it was right next to Sasuke. If dying sick Itachi can at least partially block it then it sure as hell isn't unavoidable from 10x the distance to non dying Itachi.

Technically Kakashi has no feats of actually dodging a lightning bolt so far as I'm aware.

Kakashi is stated to cut lightning both by Guy and the databook. Pretty narratively consistent, especially with the feat against Kakuzu where he straight up out ran it.

I agree that this bit is badly written by Kishimoto, but it's the information he gave us so we do currently use it.

I mean that's exactly what I'm arguing against. If Zetsus statements are mostly incorrect and unusable here why would we use this specific contradicted statement as the thing we base our decisions on?

Which directly contradicts the mehcanics of the jutsu since the whole point of it is that Sasuke is merely guiding natural lightning to a target and he doesn't have any chakra to enhance its speed.

Maybe Kishimoto realized that's stupid and retroactively changed it in the databook.

I don't believe this matters that much since Kaguya doesn't exist in the world at the time that Zetsu made his statement, but how exactly would she counter those?

She can open portals inside the susanoo to bypass its defense or just BFR Itachi with amenowhateverinaka.

I don't recall it ever being said that sealing doesn't work on her; especially since she is defeated twice by a gigantic sealing technique.

It's actually stated that the strongest sealing jutsu in history was needed to beat her. Hence why Sasuke and Naruto were both crucial in defeating her. Meaning totsuka blade straight up shouldn't work despite Zetsu glazing it as unbeatable.

Point being that basically everything Zetsu said there was at best unlikely or contradicted if not outright wrong, with the databook possibly retconning it anyway. Meaning we don't really have any reason to take his statements over anything else while having very justified reason to question and doubt them.

Absolutely. Nowhere in my OP did I propose that we scale the verse entirely based off of a single scene. But it does factor into how we have to look at the verse, just as we can entertain the high-end outliers too and consider their relevance.

I mean I would go as far as to say it shouldn't factor AT ALL. Since like I said, it gets contradicted by such a ridiculous amount of feats that there is simply no reason to take it into consideration.

 

[Nierre]

Yeah I heavily disagree with factoring that Pain statement in the OP at all. It's an egregious outlier and really does nothing for the OP.

 

[Damage3245]

He by definition does. At least partially that is.

And that's not even mentioning the distance. Cumunolimbus are usually 2-10km in the sky while Kirin was at best 50-100m from Itachi as it was right next to Sasuke. If dying sick Itachi can at least partially block it then it sure as hell isn't unavoidable from 10x the distance to non dying Itachi.

We're using different definitions then. In my view Itachi blocks it. He does not evade it.

Kakashi is stated to cut lightning both by Guy and the databook. Pretty narratively consistent, especially with the feat against Kakuzu where he straight up out ran it.

I addressed this earlier in the thread, but so far that's a value-less feat. There is no calc for it.

I mean that's exactly what I'm arguing against. If Zetsus statements are mostly incorrect and unusable here why would we use this specific contradicted statement as the thing we base our decisions on?

The intent of the information is still there. Zetsu isn't the only one who says that it can't be avoided. Sasuke says it as well.

Maybe Kishimoto realized that's stupid and retroactively changed it in the databook.

Maybe, but that proposal for lightspeed Kirin was removed a while back so it currently isn't accepted on here.

She can open portals inside the susanoo to bypass its defense or just BFR Itachi with amenowhateverinaka.

Okay, cool, but there's no reason to assume Black Zetsu is even taking Kaguya into consideration here.

It's actually stated that the strongest sealing jutsu in history was needed to beat her. Hence why Sasuke and Naruto were both crucial in defeating her. Meaning totsuka blade straight up shouldn't work despite Zetsu glazing it as unbeatable.

Point being that basically everything Zetsu said there was at best unlikely or contradicted if not outright wrong, with the databook possibly retconning it anyway. Meaning we don't really have any reason to take his statements over anything else while having very justified reason to question and doubt them.

This is a bit of a side-topic at this point but do you have a scan for lesser seals not working on her?

I mean I would go as far as to say it shouldn't factor AT ALL. Since like I said, it gets contradicted by such a ridiculous amount of feats that there is simply no reason to take it into consideration.

I don't have a problem with that; but if something that is reiterated and shown multiple times in the Pain arc can be dismissed as an outlier, then something that is only shown once (such as Killer B's Biju Bomb being comparable to Mifune's attack) shouldn't have a very high threshold to also get dismissed as an outlier as well IMO. If Kishimoto didn't know what the hell he was writing about when he wrote those Pain fight scenes, then I'm equally dubious that he intended Killer B's attack to be lightspeed.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah I heavily disagree with factoring that Pain statement in the OP at all. It's an egregious outlier and really does nothing for the OP.

I don't want to base the ratings around it of course, but do you not feel it provides a clue as to Kishimoto's intentions at the very least? That he doesn't write these certain characters with the mindset of them being exceptionally fast?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I don't want to base the ratings around it of course, but do you not feel it provides a clue as to Kishimoto's intentions at the very least? That he doesn't write these certain characters with the mindset of them being exceptionally fast?

Unless you ask Kishimoto that makes no sense, the databooks hype up a bunch of characters and their speed, he also directly made Lee and others break the speed of sound, and he wrote Kakashi cut a lightning, if his intentions were Naruto characters as being slow he wouldn't ever have done any of that.

 

[Nierre]

I don't want to base the ratings around it of course, but do you not feel it provides a clue as to Kishimoto's intentions at the very least? That he doesn't write these certain characters with the mindset of them being exceptionally fast?

Not necessarily, because while I do agree that Kakashi's "lightning cutting" feat is useless as far as the wiki's concerned, I believe Kishi has made many efforts to make it clear that Kakashi is at least a lightning speed level character, from statements, databooks, his feat against Kakuzu. I think those hold far more weight. As well as other characters clearly being portrayed as faster than sound as far back as Part 1

In regards to the OP, I'm overall neutral. As I said in the General Discussion Thread, I'm gonna steer away from the Lightspeed stuff, but as for Kirin being a cap, I'm neutral - at least until I hear more.

 

[Damage3245]

Unless you ask Kishimoto that makes no sense, the databooks hype up a bunch of characters and their speed, he also directly made Lee and others break the speed of sound, and he wrote Kakashi cut a lightning, if his intentions were Naruto characters as being slow he wouldn't ever have done any of that.

That's why I wanted to have a comprehensive OP to investigate all of the problems I found. Because the topic of speed in Naruto is a pretty big one, with multiple different levels of showings.

Finding a consistent, solid result with the fewest contradictions is my ideal goal. That means sorting out some higher-end outliers like some lightspeed stuff, and some lower-end outliers like the Pain cooldown stuff.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I just want to say that there's no way that characters talking to each other should be an anti-feat for anything. This is the Flash talking to Superman all over again

Beyond that I got nothing to comment

 

[DavidTPPM]

We're using different definitions then. In my view Itachi blocks it. He does not evade it.

Evade does have multiple definitions. Multiple dictionaries list simply avoiding as one (Oxford, Cambridge, Webster, vocabulary.com), so Itachi blocking should be enough.
Although I would also say that it should be fair to assume a healthy Itachi or someone much faster than him like kcm2 Naruto should be able to avoid Kirin from 2-10km away regardless…

I addressed this earlier in the thread, but so far that's a value-less feat. There is no calc for it.

I don’t think that really matters. There's no logical way for Kakashi to cut lightning but be so much slower it's considered impossible to evade.
The whole statement creates a sort of narrative consistency imo.

The intent of the information is still there. Zetsu isn't the only one who says that it can't be avoided. Sasuke says it as well.

As far as I remember Sasuke doesn't connect this to the jutsu moving at the speed of lightning though which makes the statement not contradictory. So if we went with the light speed translation it would easily fit in the story.

Maybe, but that proposal for lightspeed Kirin was removed a while back so it currently isn't accepted on here.

I mean sure but that doesn't really change much here. Same as Issens speed, the speed of Kirin isn't set in stone.

Okay, cool, but there's no reason to assume Black Zetsu is even taking Kaguya into consideration here.

I mean calling someone invincible seems like a statement that takes everything you know into consideration just by the sheer nature of it.
And if we want to we can also stretch this and bring up Obito. He can straight up avoid interacting with the susanoo weapons with kamui and Zetsu should be fully aware of it so the statement is wrong regardless.

This is a bit of a side-topic at this point but do you have a scan for lesser seals not working on her?

I think there's more but this should suffice

I don't have a problem with that; but if something that is reiterated and shown multiple times in the Pain arc can be dismissed as an outlier, then something that is only shown once (such as Killer B's Biju Bomb being comparable to Mifune's attack) shouldn't have a very high threshold to also get dismissed as an outlier as well IMO.

I'm not really in favor of the ratings either, if you remember I was against them in the thread they got accepted in.
I just don't agree with some of the arguments you brought up against it. .

 

[Damage3245]

Evade does have multiple definitions. Multiple dictionaries list simply avoiding as one (Oxford, Cambridge, Webster, vocabulary.com), so Itachi blocking should be enough.
Although I would also say that it should be fair to assume a healthy Itachi or someone much faster than him like kcm2 Naruto should be able to avoid Kirin from 2-10km away regardless…

Okay, I disagree on the first point. On the latter, KCM2 Naruto didn't exist at the time.

As far as I remember Sasuke doesn't connect this to the jutsu moving at the speed of lightning though which makes the statement not contradictory. So if we went with the light speed translation it would easily fit in the story.

He doesn't have to, Zetsu is there to fill that gap for us. Do you think Kishimoto had Zetsu yapping away exposition for no reason?

I think there's more but this should suffice

Okay thanks.

I'm not really in favor of the ratings either, if you remember I was against them in the thread they got accepted in.
I just don't agree with some of the arguments you brought up against it. .

Okay, noted.

 

[Hasty12345]

Was the zetsu statement made before or after Sasuke had actually used Kirin to hit Itachi?

 

[Damage3245]

Was the zetsu statement made before or after Sasuke had actually used Kirin to hit Itachi?

Before.

 

[Hasty12345]

Before.

So we’re taking the word of a guy who’s never seen the technique before as fact?

Why isn’t zetsu just wrong?

 

[Damage3245]

So we’re taking the word of a guy who’s never seen the technique before as fact?

Why isn’t zetsu just wrong?

Zetsu is aware of what lightning is.

But aside from an in-Universe reason that Zetsu is a highly knowledgeable individual that's watched a ton of battles... From an out-of-Universe perspective, what purpose is served by Kishimoto having a character supply completely wrong information to the readers? Characters can be ignorant of some things (like Sasuke being shown to be ignorant of Itachi's Susano'o), and yes sometimes characters can make mistakes.... But we need a good reason to believe the character is making a mistake here instead of just saying "Characters can be wrong, so why can't Zetsu just be wrong?"

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think consistency and later WoG statements are a good reason.

 

[Hasty12345]

Zetsu is aware of what lightning is.

But aside from an in-Universe reason that Zetsu is a highly knowledgeable individual that's watched a ton of battles... From an out-of-Universe perspective, what purpose is served by Kishimoto having a character supply completely wrong information to the readers? Characters can be ignorant of some things (like Sasuke being shown to be ignorant of Itachi's Susano'o), and yes sometimes characters can make mistakes.... But we need a good reason to believe the character is making a mistake here instead of just saying "Characters can be wrong, so why can't Zetsu just be wrong?"

Yeah so the good reason to believe Zetsu is wrong is he made an assumption as to the speed of the jutsu. He hadn’t seen the jutsu to know how fast it would be and the data book states it’s light speed.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah so the good reason to believe Zetsu is wrong is he made an assumption as to the speed of the jutsu. He hadn’t seen the jutsu to know how fast it would be and the data book states it’s light speed.

He doesn't need to see the jutsu beforehand to know how fast it is; the jutsu is literally lightning and he knows how fast how lightning is.

Databooks are secondary canon that are prone to hyperbole.

I think consistency and later WoG statements are a good reason.

I'm a big fan of consistency. That's why I think the proposals in the other thread are wrong.

 

[Samlex1234]

The issue with using this as an anti feat is pretty clear when you actually examine the entire statement. That being the fact that nearly everything else in the statement is wrong. Zetsu says the following:

Blatantly wrong as we literally see a fatigued half blind Itachi evade it in screen.

Again Itachi dodging Kirin should be expected since he is Itachi (The invincible), and since Kirin is said to be undodgeable and can only and will always move at lightning speed, proven as even Naruto in the Finally Valley fight could not dodge it. Naruto shipudden should be capped at lightning speed.

 

[Damage3245]

Again Itachi dodging Kirin should be expected since he is Itachi (The invincible), and since Kirin is said to be undodgeable and can only and will always move at lightning speed, proven as even Naruto in the Finally Valley fight could not dodge it. Naruto shipudden should be capped at lightning speed.

That was a pretty funny clip that I considered mentioning as a side-note, but alas it's anime filler.

Even the cool things in that fight, like Sasuke drawing Naruto's clones in towards him with the Deva Path are filler, sadly. Would be cool if Kishimoto had expanded on the fight in the manga though.

 

[Hasty12345]

He doesn't need to see the jutsu beforehand to know how fast it is; the jutsu is literally lightning and he knows how fast how lightning is.

Lightning is literally a massive f***ing dragon.

Yes, Zetsu may know how fast lightning is, but lightning literally isn't a massive dragon.

Databooks are secondary canon that are prone to hyperbole.

You need to assert Zetsu is knowledgeable on a jutsu he's never seen before to come to the conclusion the statement is hyperbole.

 

[Damage3245]

Lightning is literally a massive f***ing dragon.

Yes, Zetsu may know how fast lightning is, but lightning literally isn't a massive dragon.

You need to assert Zetsu is knowledgeable on a jutsu he's never seen before to come to the conclusion the statement is hyperbole.

Okay, then I'm asserting that. You don't need to agree with me.

 

[Samlex1234]

Okay, then I'm asserting that. You don't need to agree with me.

How does Sasuke direct or guide the technique? If he is not using chakra?

 

[Damage3245]

How does Sasuke direct or guide the technique? If he is not using chakra?

Although both Sasuke and Itachi say that he's "out of chakra", since Sasuke isn't actually keeling over on the spot I interpret them as meaning that he has no significant amount of chakra that can be used in a conventional jutsu, i.e. changing the nature of chakra with Lightning Style to make a lightning jutsu that is powered by his chakra.

Sasuke can still leap up great heights, and he can coat his hand in a very tiny chidori-like coating which is what serves to guide the jutsu - but as Zetsu states, he doesn't have to use his own chakra to form the Kirin, he uses the ambient energy in the storm. Sasuke repeats what Zetsu says, more or less, stating that the jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the clouds. Sasuke then points his fingers, and directs the lightning.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Reading the OP made me realize some discussion rules should be implemented for certain overused and blatantly false counterarguments, next thing you know someone is gonna argue the whole verse should be below subsonic because kishimoto said ninjas are sub-gun level (and other shenanigans you'll find on reddit and tiktok)

Spoiler: BEEP

The Speed of Biju Bombs

Consequently to the previous threads, the speed of the Juubi's own Biju Bombs - being significantly more powerful than Gyuki's Biju Bombs - would also be faster than light, and yet there are scenes that would strongly indicate against that assumption.

In Chapter 613, the Juubi undergoes its evolution into its second form and begins spammning long-range Biju Bombs to rain down in distant locations. The last of these is aimed for the Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters located in the vicinity of Kumogakure. We then get an extensive sequence where the sensory shinobi realize the target of the Biju Bomb, relay it to the others, they discuss the situation and then Shikaku has the telepathic ninja relay his plan to beat the Juubi to everyone on the battlefield before the Biju Bomb lands. We can then see the explosion in the distance and Madara remarking "Finally got them."

For reference, the area where the Juubi is - where the alliance is fighting it - is indicated by the red arrow. The Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters is highlighted by a purple arrow.

Our currently accepted value approximating that distance is around 700 kilometers, and even with other methods it is at-most around a couple thousand kilometers.

Remember that lightspeed means a projectile could circle the Earth approximately 7.5 times in one second.

But here we have multiple characters conversing each other, being shown in contemplation, coming up with ideas... and then to end it off, Madara remarks that they 'finally' got them after waiting for the Biju Bomb to land. This is not the kind of remark one would make if he was just waiting for a hundredth of a second. There is significant travel time for that amount of distance.

While it's a common convention that "Talking is a Free Action" and characters can execute high-speed maneuvers while still speaking normally, this goes well beyond just a line or two. These are full-blown conversations that don't make any sense if an FTL projectile is crossing so short a distance.

The much stronger Juubi's Biju Bomb being this slow should call into question Gyuki's Biju Bomb being assumed to be so fast

You concede to talking being a free action and then contradict your own statement by bringing up, "yeah talking is a free action but not when it's more than the amount I personally specify." When we improvise rules based on personal belief, they all loose meaning and weight and eventually become unusable, going by that logic one or two lines would also cap thousands of verses, I personally think the limit is 5 words, anything more and you're being an anti feat, then what? what is there to differentiate my standard for yours? what makes it more valid? it's essentially becomes useless so that is invalid and the rule with regards to talking being a free action stands

Also the worst part about it? It does not cap the TBB, the world's size can be as large as it needs to be, shinobi are faster than horses, can breathe in space, the entire world is way different than ours, their planet is implied multiple times to be far larger than our own earth, as it does not have the same geography as the real earth it's not pinned down to that number, our sizes are as you said a few thousand kilometers, but these are lowballs not caps, those calculations serve to prove "x structure is at least this large" the same way any manga character can secretly be outerversal, just because we lowball things down to what is provable does not act as it's cap

• The Naruto Planet is far richer when it comes to raw chakra compared to other planets, characters like Momoshiki who have devoured countless planets marvel at the sheer chakra produced by earth, his excitement and lust for feeding off of earth implying it's way larger and resourceful than the average planet
• Not only do that, Earth's mass was so large it was causing cracks near the space, the spacetime curvature was stated 16, a established value for abnormalities, essentially a rare kind of world as though naruto's earth is a shiny pokemon to them
• The Naruto planet also was so immensely large, Hagoromo and Hamura were able to collect enough debris from it to end up being able to shape the moon itself, for it to be a fully functioning planet after giving birth to a whole ass celestial object makes it irrefutably larger than our world by not needing its moon to be born out of collision from other celestial objects and it stays larger due to the things I listed prior as well as the next point
• Also let's use calculations if you wanna go that route, Damage's argument is only valid if the distances have a confirmed cap which is only possible if the naruto planet and earth are 1:1, after reviewing various calculations for the konoha-suna stuff I arrive at a distance of 6336km, it is inline with what Damage suggested which is a few thousand kilometers right? Now I want to help you understand how huge that is visually, Konoha-Suna, in the real world this is how big the distance would be, when overlapped together we get this and this, as you can see that is massive, a country in naruto is as big as entire continents and then we have countries much larger than that which is part of one super continent which is a part of four super continents. Needless to say there should be no question that it is far beyond the earth and you cannot use distances to cap them because those values are derived instead of stated.

Summary of this section :
1) Talking is still a free action
2) The TBB speed cannot be capped if the distance is unknown

Mifune's Issen

There is room for doubt as to whether or not Mifune's technique itself is a lightspeed projectile. The only basis for Mifune's technique being as fast as it is comes not from the manga itself, from a secondary source, the databook, which is only applied for the Naruto-verse on a case-by-case basis due to some discrepancies and hyperbolic statements such as Sasuke's power exceeding even that of the Akatsuki.



This has been translated by @Arc7Kuroi as:



What the statement in the databook is saying is that Mifune (who uses Iaido, a high-speed form of swordsmanship that is about drawing one's blade quickly and slashing), is slashing his sword at lightspeed and and releasing a flying slash at his enemy.

Even if we took the statement literally and assumed there was no databook hyperbole going on here, we could say that Mifune's sword stroke was executed at the speed of light, but the projectile sword-slash that is released by him is not necessarily travelling the quickly. The databook makes no actual mention of Mifune's flying slash being what is lightspeed.

Although Mifune's technique Issen, can be translated as Flash, or Beam of Light, this again doesn't mean the projectile has to be lightspeed. It's not a literal beam of light he's releasing, but a projectile of chakra released from his sword-swing. Same as all the other regular samurai who coat their blades in chakra and release slashes of chakra that Sasuke is able to react extremely casually to.

Not to mention that describing someone's attack as a "speed of light sword stroke" can easily be a figurative description rather than an absolutely literal measurement of their speed. It conveys the meaning that Mifune's attack is fast which is all that matters.

Assuming we disregard all that though and still insist that it is Mifune's flying slash that is lightspeed, the original argument depends on the assumption that all of the attacks were launched at the exact same time. There is no chance that the shinobi and Gyuki were able to coordinate their moves that precisely; even a microsecond of time between the different jutsu starting to move would be relevant when we're talking about matters of lightspeed. It seems far more likely to me that Kishimoto just wanted a scene of several characters through ranged attacks together and didn't put any serious thought into it of them all having to be exactly the same speed, and that the minimum speed they'd need to travel is lightspeed.

Yeah no we're not doing this, Databooks are law and have been accepted for usage on a case by case basis for years, attempts at discrediting the databooks have been rejected in the past, you cannot use one line you intentionally misinterpret to discredit the rest when those aren't faulty, still disagree with databooks? Go make a CRT to have them removed as it's affecting a huge section of the verse, if you don't wish to make a CRT then you need to argue while accepting them as the irrefutable truth. Don't throw out points you're not willing to fully see through.

Damage was one of the first people to greenlight this being light speed in it's initial CRT, you're not supposed to decide on a material's credibility based on what wanks it allows, if it's law it is law regardless of if it allows naruto characters to enter tier 0

Is that a r/naruto link for the sasuke's databook page whining about universal temari arguments, what are we doing man
now as for whether it is the projectile or the slash, I'm pretty sure it was clarified in the original CRT, don't see the reason to keep bringing it up

it appears that the attack itself is the one that's speed of light and not Mifune himself.

Generally, for projectile attacks it makes no sense to hype up striking speed instead of projectiles, Databooks hype up powers and sell you on a coolness factor, that's it's job, makes more sense for my bullet to be x speed than my trigger pulling speeds

- Now Sasuke's feat linked in that section of the OP does not involve outpacing or being equal to the beams, he has a good distance to react to and plan out movements that take less speed than theirs, in FKS sasuke has low tier combat speed with mid tier (ay bee) reactions, as in he cant move at their levels but can perform jutsus to survive their attacks, perfectly in line with this feat

- "Could be" isn't enough, if it was it wouldn't originally get approved it was deemed literal, you're not adding anything new
Kishimoto could be lying as an attempt to fool the audience, illogical hypotheticals are to be dismissed

- As for the last thing, again we've been over this, it's a unison attack, that's how unison attacks are portrayed and they happen together
I don't see the point of repeating old arguments from the previous thread thinking it'll add a shred of extra credence. It just shows you're throwing anything and everything hoping it works, regardless of validity. You didn't even consider the consequences of a lot of your arguments, you're okay with Madara being ftl so you don't pursue his downgrades even tho your arguments (to you) invalidate the current scaling.

It seems far more likely...- no

What seems to anyone is irrelevant, we are not gods nor mind readers, I can say he intended for them to be Tier 1, both of our comments are baseless headcanon and should be dismissed for lack of evidence

Sasuke's Kirin and Lightning Jutsu

There's more to take into consideration for the verse as a whole than just the Biju Bombs. A very important technique in Sasuke's arsenal is Kirin.

Kirin has been gone over enough times in this wiki's history that I'm sure almost all Naruto fans here will be familiar with it but I'll provide an overview of it just to illustrate my point at how the speed ratings we've introduced contradict the narrative.

After exhausting his chakra on Orochimaru's substitution technique and several fireballs he fired into the sky, Sasuke reveals that he has one last technique up his sleeve despite his lack of chakra. He used the fireballs to create stormclouds above, and he's going to use them to create a technique that 'lasts an instant' and 'cannot be blocked or evaded'. Sasuke doesn't supply his own chakra to power or speed up the technique (he can't; he's out of it as confirmed by Itachi); he just takes advantage of the enormous ambigent atmospheric energy to launch a Lightning Style jutsu by harnessing natural lightning. As Sasuke himself explains, the jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the clouds at a target of Sasuke's choice; he merely directs natural lightning towards Itachi.

This is the reason why Kirin cannot be evaded, according to Zetsu. It's speed enabling it to cross the distance in 0.001 seconds.The currently accepted calculation for Kirin's speed is Mach 8089, using that timeframe from the manga.

If a Massively Hypersonic+ attack (several hundred Mach off of being Sub-Relativistic) travelling across hundreds of meters is considered to be nigh-undodgeable by not just one but two sources commenting on the speed of the technique making it impossible to evade then a few things about the way we rank speed ratings on the wiki don't make sense and directly contradict the information presented to us in the primary source of the series.

Characters like the Sannin (who Sasuke and Zetsu are more than familiar with) aren't going around fighting at FTL speed. Jutsu like the Biju Bomb (which multiple characters have blocked or evaded) doesn't make sense being FTL if an MHS+ technique is considered impossible to evade.

While it is true that Sasuke's knowledge is limited; for example he was unaware that Itachi possessed the Susano'o that he could use to block the Kirin, and he is unaware of the speed of the upper echelons like Minato who could use the Flying Thunder God technique to teleport out of the way, the statement still remains a strong barrier for the vast majority of shinobi.

Lightning speed jutsu is never considered to be a joke in the series. The databook for Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu states "It is exceedingly difficult to dodge a lightning bolt flying at high speed." Even in the final arc of the series Madara employs realistic lightning bolts created through Yin Release to attack Naruto and Sasuke. Whilst though both Naruto and Sasuke quite capably react to it without issue, it shows that it is still a potential threat.

This is why it is very hard to accept that most characters are regularly fighting at FTL speeds, or that someone like Kakashi is over twice as fast as Kirin is. By Hidan scaling to Kakashi, and Shikamaru scaling to Hidan, we end up in a scenario where Shikamaru is actually 6.3 times faster than the attack that blitzes him. If we go with the current FTL proposals then we end up in a situation where Kakuzu is "FTL, with MHS+ attack speed", and an FTL Shikamaru was helpless as an MHS+ attack crossed dozens of meters to reach him. It is too contradictory.

At first I had thought you wanted the subrel stuff removed but then I realised you were referring to the MHS+ calc which is gonna be soon upgraded to subrel, I am not gonna touch much on that as enough people have debunked them in the replies, I'll stick to FTL stuff but I'll say some stuff


Databooks saying x attack can't be evaded is not solid grounds for a debunk, it's job is to sell you on a coolness factor, MY INFINITE SPEED ATTACK MAKES ME IMPERCEPTIBLE!! only applies in a general sense, amaterasu cant be evaded and yet it was, what does this tell us? it just means in general it should not be evadable unless the opposition has better stats or hax,

the people slower than kirin =/= the people getting ftl combat, sick dying blind itachi reacted and formed the susano in time so idk what the hell that is supposed to mean

Kirin is LIGHT SPEED, zetsu makes a statement for STANDARD LIGHTNING
Kirin is a F***** CHINESE DRAGON SHAPED ATTACK, what in the name of false equivalencies makes you think kirin can be equated to THAT
the mach 8089 calc assumes a height, a height that's never mentioned wth
how is this supposed to cap the verse when it didnt even blitz sick dying blind itachi? when there's no stated distance travelled?



As for the shikamaru hidan stuff, that's just your issue with chain scaling, it has little to do with the validity of kakashi dodging lightning, one of the most blatant and in your face feats with no room for hyperbole or flowery language

Mabui's Ethereal Transmission Jutsu and the Raikage

One thing to remember is that in the general shinobi world, not counting freaks of the past like Madara and the Hashirama, the Raikage is the fastest ninja alive. Even in his base form he's regarded as super-fast, and in Lightning Chakra Mode Version 1 and Version 2, he becomes even faster. When using the Shunshin (Body Flicker Technique) in this state, he can even accomplish the nigh-impossible feat of evading Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan visual prowess and escaping being ignited with the Amaterasu technique which ignites at whatever Sasuke is looking at.

This is important because when it comes to Mabui's Ethereal Transmission jutsu - which can transport objects across vast distances at the speed of light - the main drawback for trying to use it on living human beings is that their bodies cannot cope with the the immense speed and they become torn apart. Only freaks like the 3rd Raikage who have unique extra-tough physiques can endure it, and Tsunade who has the ability to heal herself after travelling. This weakness is reiterated in the databook which mentions the movement being too fast unless the target has a sturdy body.

Why is this important? Because if shinobi regularly fought and moved at faster-than-light speeds, then the speed of Mabui's technique would be trivial to them. Even for the 4th Raikage, the fastest shinobi alive, Mabui states that it may be possible for the 4th Raikage to successfully travel by this technique but only because he's the 3rd Raikage's son. As his secretary, Mabui would know the 4th Raikage's abilities better than most and even she only conjectures that it may be possible for him, rather than acknowledging that he regularly moves beyond lightspeed anyway.

Again, an argument gets disproven and it's just brought back without adding anything new?
Here's the previous debunk to this (suggested the newcomers read that entire page of comments)
TLDR : physical movement speed cap can't be assigned based on a jutsu that doesnt even use physical movement


-Raikage is only faster based on folks he has seen or heard of, it doesnt cap itachi or even akatsuki high tiers that dont give out many showings

Pain's Shinra Tensei

An important drawback to Pain's Shinra Tensei (Almighty Push) is that it has a minimum cooldown of 5 seconds between every usage of it.

The characters do not treat this as a huge amount of time within which to act:

Choza: "And if his recharging period is really brief... we can't afford to get close."

Random Shinobi: "Only five seconds, huh..."

Katsuyu: "The minimum interval between his jutsu is about five seconds. So you must target and strike during that window."
Naruto: "Five seconds, huh...."
Fukasaku: "Our only hope is to trap 'em within Genjutsu."

It's pretty telling a "brief" recharging period of five seconds poses difficulties for these characters. Kakashi, with Choji and Choza, have to execute a pretty elaborate strategy to have to get around Pains' brief period of vulnerability, and Fukasaku doesn't see much hope for Naruto without defeating Pain indirectly through Genjutsu.

All of this is to say that it seems extraordinarily inconsistent for us to treat these characters as being able to move, fight and react at FTL levels of speed if a timeframe like this in combat poses difficulties for them.

no one from the pain arc is getting ftl + people countered this so I don't need to, it's not even backed by authors intent either

for the OTHER ANTI FEATS section
most of these are nothing burgers

one thing we need to realise is that jutsu speed =/= element speed
you'll bring up Juubidara using lightning attacks to try and cap him but then accept those light jutsu as light speed? like huh?

madara also reacted to this, let's give him ftl combat!!
CLEARLY to you an element defines its speed strictly
almost as though shinobi can pour in chakra to enhance its effects for the attacks to be relevant

Light = 1c
Jutsu Speed = whatever the hell speed the plot wants it to be
Jutsu stated at 1c = 1c via WOG

CONCLUSION​

​

I fully disagree with everything, the evidences are blatant and the supposed anti feats/counterarguments are either horrible outliers or old 2020 arguments that make use of bad misinterpretations​

 

[Damage3245]

@Ghostimuscrime I'll have to get back to you on your response tomorrow.

 

[KingogKings777]

Why is Kirin argued to not be lightning speed but LS when it's stated to be lightning in the databook?

 

[Damage3245]

Why is Kirin argued to not be lightning speed but LS when it's stated to be lightning in the databook?

The OP of this thread where lightspeed was removed for it should answer your question.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Again Itachi dodging Kirin should be expected since he is Itachi (The invincible), and since Kirin is said to be undodgeable and can only and will always move at lightning speed, proven as even Naruto in the Finally Valley fight could not dodge it. Naruto shipudden should be capped at lightning speed.

haha take that narutards

it's the end of naruwank

 

[TheLav69]

I don't want to base the ratings around it of course, but do you not feel it provides a clue as to Kishimoto's intentions at the very least? That he doesn't write these certain characters with the mindset of them being exceptionally fast?

Unless there's a realistic speed scale for the verse that actually uses the pain cooldown instead of treating it as a massive outlier, it shouldn't be considered at all imo. There's really no room for a hypothetical speed meta that dismisses the pain cooldown as being an outlier while simultaneously using it as support against an alternative, even faster speed meta. It's an outlier in both cases, and you really can't draw a line between an acceptable outlier and a problematic outlier. It's completely arbitrary.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I strongly disagree with this too

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll drop a comment on the matter, later. I will make clear that I'm currently neutral, but that's because I haven't reviewed and digested the arguments presented by both sides. In my main post, I will provide a more thorough, completed opinion on this.

 

[KingogKings777]

The OP of this thread where lightspeed was removed for it should answer your question.

Oh no I agree that Kirin isn't LS and since the site removed LS Kirin I'm confused why people are arguing about LS Kirin.