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Some people might not be aware it got removed, or believe it should never have been removed i guess. But since it was rejected it is off-topic for the thread i suppose.
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A Review of the speed of Naruto (Verse)
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
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Neutral on the Lightspeed stuff, but heavily disagree on removing False Darkness interception calc. It's wholly consistent for Kakashi to perform that, and taking Zetsu's statement as WoG is just wrong in my book.
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Kirin is a Lightning Style jutsu that utilizes the natural energy in the atmosphere, drawing on ambient lightning that Sasuke can directly control.Thus it can be enhanced speed-wise and even Ap-wise and sasuke enhanced its effects with other Justu.
However, let’s analyze what Zetsu stated. He claimed that Kirin “cannot be evaded,” which emphasizes its speed. Yet, this assertion is not absolute proof of its invincibility. Because In the same chapter, Itachi could activate his Susanoo and block before Kirin struck the ground an event that supposedly occurs in less than 1/1000th of a second. Thus, Zetsu’s and sasuke statement of it being undodgeable and unblockable is indeed hyperbolic and Itachi proved that.
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Purely natural lightning doesn't take up the form of a huge dragon and completely obliterate an entire mountain. Just sayin'.
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That is why we have 2 WOG statements
Properly explaining the ability. But no we ignore that and go with hypothetical statements that cause all manner of contradictions in the verse.
Saqphire
She/Her- 151
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Honestly, I kinda agree with some of these arguments, especially with lightspeed being a hard-cap for anyone who doesn't have Raikage-level physique or those who don't have feats with Light Fang or above, those are pretty blatant examples of Shippuden not being lightspeed until end-game
Idk why people are still in 2025 arguing that Kirin is lightspeed when it's is more often than not actually portrayed to be lightning-speed, most statements actually revealed it to be, surprise, an unavoidable natural lightning-attack which is consistent with the fastest alive Shinobi (pre-KCM/WM Obito) also being stated to have lightning-fast speed. The databooks that do say it's lightning-fast supports the in-manga primary canon statement that was written by Kishimoto to be mediated by Zetsu that lightning is unavoidable (and no Itachi never avoided it, the brother was down headfirst on the ground after it lmfao, at best you'd be arguing reaction speed for the Susano'o and at worst it's an aim-dodging feat). Zetsu is also never implied in the narrative to not be taken seriously, that's all headcanon to try to fit people's own narrative which goes against Kishimoto's own, or else Light Fang/Issen would never have been such a big deal in speed in-narrative. Sasuke also never states that he amped the speed of Kirin, he just redirects it
That said, I completely disagree with Issen and the Bijuu bombs not being lightspeed for the reasons you've entailed. The databook entry is supposed to give information about the jutsu itself which is consistent with pretty much every single databook entry ever talking about a jutsu when they're highlighting it's speed, example being Light Fang obviously, why would Kishimoto suddenly talk about Mifune's own striking speed when he's highlighting the jutsu itself? That makes no logical sense and just seems like an argument done in bad faith
Furthermore, using dialogue to cap a certain speed has never and will never be consistent with an established speed narrative, that's why talking has been universally decided as a free action in literally every verse that's beyond Mach 1, otherwise if we use talking as a counterpoint, Naruto wouldn't even reach Transonic as he'd be too fast to communicate what he'd be saying with sound/his tongue otherwise, which is everything but narratively consistent.
The Pain example is also just a giant outlier as that insinuates Naruto wouldn't even have human level striking speed, as we see him literally be up close and try to punch Pain yet he fails within one second, but he does throw a Rasenshuriken and create several dozens of clones at speeds far beyond speeds like sound in the same instance of the fight, it's just wonky and shouldn't be considered as an actual reliable example of these people's speed
Idk why people are still in 2025 arguing that Kirin is lightspeed when it's is more often than not actually portrayed to be lightning-speed, most statements actually revealed it to be, surprise, an unavoidable natural lightning-attack which is consistent with the fastest alive Shinobi (pre-KCM/WM Obito) also being stated to have lightning-fast speed. The databooks that do say it's lightning-fast supports the in-manga primary canon statement that was written by Kishimoto to be mediated by Zetsu that lightning is unavoidable (and no Itachi never avoided it, the brother was down headfirst on the ground after it lmfao, at best you'd be arguing reaction speed for the Susano'o and at worst it's an aim-dodging feat). Zetsu is also never implied in the narrative to not be taken seriously, that's all headcanon to try to fit people's own narrative which goes against Kishimoto's own, or else Light Fang/Issen would never have been such a big deal in speed in-narrative. Sasuke also never states that he amped the speed of Kirin, he just redirects it
That said, I completely disagree with Issen and the Bijuu bombs not being lightspeed for the reasons you've entailed. The databook entry is supposed to give information about the jutsu itself which is consistent with pretty much every single databook entry ever talking about a jutsu when they're highlighting it's speed, example being Light Fang obviously, why would Kishimoto suddenly talk about Mifune's own striking speed when he's highlighting the jutsu itself? That makes no logical sense and just seems like an argument done in bad faith
Furthermore, using dialogue to cap a certain speed has never and will never be consistent with an established speed narrative, that's why talking has been universally decided as a free action in literally every verse that's beyond Mach 1, otherwise if we use talking as a counterpoint, Naruto wouldn't even reach Transonic as he'd be too fast to communicate what he'd be saying with sound/his tongue otherwise, which is everything but narratively consistent.
The Pain example is also just a giant outlier as that insinuates Naruto wouldn't even have human level striking speed, as we see him literally be up close and try to punch Pain yet he fails within one second, but he does throw a Rasenshuriken and create several dozens of clones at speeds far beyond speeds like sound in the same instance of the fight, it's just wonky and shouldn't be considered as an actual reliable example of these people's speed
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Neither Light Fang nor Issen is implied to be such a big deal in the narrative.
They're significant for us as powerscalers in that we can use them to scale, but they're not anymore significant in-universe than a regular Jutsu.
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The 2 databook statements we have were translated as lightspeed, not lightning-fast speed. That being said I don't think it should matter to this Thread.
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MinatoSparkle
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Man imgur sucks sometimes
Saqphire
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?
Light Fang is literally stated to be unavoidable because of it's speed (and this was after people like Juubito was concluded) and Issen is worded to be extremely hyped because of it's speed. Even if powerscaling wasn't a thing, the databooks and the manga stuff state and imply that at the very least Light Fang is so fast it makes Six Paths Naruto go "WOAH!!" while dodging it, so it's not an out-of-universe thing for it to be a big deal, what is bro talking about
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Light Fang was used once in like one panel, and people don't get the impression at all that it was such a big deal move. It was never used again, nor was it hyped up in-universe.?
Light Fang is literally stated to be unavoidable because of it's speed (and this was after people like Juubito was concluded) and Issen is worded to be extremely hyped because of it's speed. Even if powerscaling wasn't a thing, the databooks and the manga stuff state and imply that at the very least Light Fang is so fast it makes Six Paths Naruto go "WOAH!!" while dodging it, so it's not an out-of-universe thing for it to be a big deal, what is bro talking about
The "whoa" there seems to be a reaction less from the speed, but more from Naruto not expecting it.
Testarossa002
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Even if your interpretation is true, there are still multiple scaling avenue for his Iaido that affects other high-tier characters. FKS Sasuke and Hanzo react to it rather easily and if you’re going with the narrative that he was only LS with KN0 amp, multiple characters who were relative to him in base would end up scaling to the rating
Uh, no. This is a statement made in a fictional setting. Not something that’s based in the real world. Unless there’s something that seriously contradicts it, the literal definition takes precedence. We more or less have default interpretations for these type of statements.
“Lightning speed” figurative
“Speed of lightning” literal
“Light like speed” figurative
“Speed of light” literal
The databook could have just used one of the billion instances where characters/techniques were described as “super fast” to describe Issen. Rather than give it an actual value
You and I have already debated this extensively here. I’d rather not have us repeat the same arguments (which spanned the better part of 12 pages) here.
Kirin is not a naturally occuring lightning
The very fact that supernatural energy is in it's creation makes it open to being amped or nerfed
If you attribute the enormous energy for it's 2 billion+ amp in AP, why are you ruling out the possibility of said energy amping the speed
You can’t say “Kirin is lightning speed and it caps a lot of characters” while also mentioning False Darkness as an adjoining point. False Darkness which Kakashi outran.
We have literal academy/genin ninjas do lightning timing feats
Whether these calcs are accurate or not doesn’t matter. They involve bottom tier ninjas dodging/reacting to lightning without any issues. If i wanted to, there are multiple ways to scale this to Part 1 Naruto and Sasuke
And no, Shikamaru wasn’t blitzed. He reacted to it by opening a scroll. Even choji had enough time to bring his arms to his face in a defensive posture. Plus, Shikamaru hardly scales to Hidan
You say this and use the scan now. Would you also accept Ay scaling above Haku using the logic? Anyways, I already tried to explain this section before
This is as much a low-end outlier as much as it's a high-end anti feat.
Net already addressed this section but it's ironic that you regard it as anti-feats but when it's actually reacted to, you say this
It's an opinion that's 5 years old but I doubt it's changed since then
Saqphire
She/Her- 151
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The second statement is a complete mistranslation and the official translation supports that argument. The first is why I said most and not all translations end up giving out lightning-speed, which is when we ask ourselves, if 3 out of four iterations all support Kirin being lightning speed, why should we take the one outlier-y statement that is a huge contradiction to narrative intent over the other ones?
Saqphire
She/Her- 151
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So you're just gonna go "nuh-uh" despite me showing you how it very much is a big-deal in-universe? It being used once doesn't matter lol Kishimoto's intent was clearly for the attack to be a hyped-up attack in speed, and Naruto not expecting the attack and dodging it rapidly literally implies he wasn't expecting the speed of it to be that fast, if it was such a slow attack Naruto woulda just blocked or ignored that shit
Testarossa002
Username Only- 1,974
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No
In fact, it's the follow up swing that can't be defended against. Not the actual beam
Credits to @Arc7Kuroi for the translation
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 8,003
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I don't know why light speed attacks hyped up as fast means anything against Kirin. It literally has no antifeats other than being below Itachi's mental reaction speed over a long distance.
It quite literally uses the exact kanji for the scientific speed of light. Google Translate and DeepL are not that reliable.
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This is no point because the whole undodgeable hype was useless as a held-down Naruto casually moved FTL to dodge an impossible light-speed feat.
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Everything you've shown doesn't imply that at all. Both attacks were used once in a very explicitly casual manner, and was never hyped up like you seem to think it is.
Databooks aren't "in-universe". It's supplementary material.
Kishimoto's intent was to use a high-speed attack for Naruto to dodge in that instance. No implication of it being hyped-up.
Seeing that panel again, I actually think that the "whoa" was a response from Madara swinging the beam towards him after dodging it, rather than a response from the initial dodge.
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KaydeeX
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no way you brought google translate as being the “correct one”
KaydeeX
Username Only- 1,053
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Just to be clear on my stance, i’m neutral on the whole issen LS and those who scale, it wasn’t really my foothold to begin with.
Heavily disagree with mach 8k being a cap for the mid tiers. Not only is the current accepted calc lightning ranged, but it was also accepted in the Kirin follow up thread that Kirin should scale above what Sasuke scales to. I see nothing changed in that line of reasoning. Kirin could just upscale from whatever lightning-speed-ranged calc we have and it’ll still maintain its narrative.
Heavily disagree with mach 8k being a cap for the mid tiers. Not only is the current accepted calc lightning ranged, but it was also accepted in the Kirin follow up thread that Kirin should scale above what Sasuke scales to. I see nothing changed in that line of reasoning. Kirin could just upscale from whatever lightning-speed-ranged calc we have and it’ll still maintain its narrative.
