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22nd Budokai Arc Downgrades (Dragon Ball)

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So Roshi always says that they can beat him or surpass him or similar stuff and never brings up that he can whoop their ass if he somehow increases that much in power in Max form. Which he doesn't really as that is just his normal power. I feel conveniently leaving out which he himself never did as honestly there is nothing to leave out as it is his normal power is pretty more unlikely than the opposite aka that they surpass him.
 
@RedReaper; if I agreed with you on that then I wouldn't have made this CRT in the first place.
 
The way I see it, it makes no sense for Roshi's statements and even personal thoughts indicating that Goku had surpassed him to not extend to his MAX Power form because... Well, then Goku wouldn't have surpassed Roshi, because his MAX Power form is literally just him using his full power.
 
RedReaper said:
That is what would have had to have happened in order for Damage/Tempest's argument to work, yes.
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Maybe he got into the tournament of power by not training thus becoming stronger by trillions of times. Also tempest didn't know what he was talking about. He debated against tri beam being a stronger technigue than kamehameha when there is a direct statement by Roshi in opposition.
 
Damage3245 said:
In this case, I think more specific scaling is warranted when the context points to Tien's Tri-Beam not being that powerful. Like it's been said, why would Master Roshi note the destructiveness of the technique if the Kamehameha can nuke celestial bodies? The most logical explanation is that he wasn't comparing it to that the Max Power Kamehameha.

Looks like the votes are currently split KT and myself opting for "higher" and DDM and Lephyr opting for "5-C".

If I have to, I'll compromise on a Possibly 5-C for Tien's Tri-Beam to avoid this being dragged out, but I would really like to change their minds or get more staff input.
Click to expand...
As for this, I disagree with a compromise personally. For me, it's very clear this entire arc is to show how everyone is starting to surpass the past showings, which as others brought up is supported as well with statements about Goku surpassing Roshi. With Roshi himself stating Tien can straight up beat him, and having a technique superior to his best, I just don't see room for doubt.

The only point of contention is if we consider that Roshi is taking into consideration his MAX or not. I believe, based on narrative and implications, he is. So yeah, solid 5-C to me.
 
Damage3245 said:
@RedReaper; if I agreed with you on that then I wouldn't have made this CRT in the first place.
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Yes, and I am in this thread pointing out the distinct several times that Tien and Roshi are distinctly labelled comparable. Whilst superior to the Moon Level attack.

And am pointing out the "Max Power" is explicitly not an increase in power, but how Roshi safely utilizes it, thus making any statements in relevance to his full power valid.

And how the Power Levels support this conclusion.

And how the narrative beats support this conclusion.

And how Tien is then purposely used as a benchmark for these reasons to then provide context onto how powerful Daimao Piccolo is.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
The way I see it, it makes no sense for Roshi's statements and even personal thoughts indicating that Goku had surpassed him to not extend to his MAX Power form because... Well, then Goku wouldn't have surpassed Roshi, because his MAX Power form is literally just him using his full power.
Click to expand...
I think that's the problem here...Everyone is talking like Max Power Roshi is like Golden Frieza or something when it's just...Roshi at his strongest. What else would he even be comparing others to? Had he compared them to his relaxed state he would have said oh they can make me get slightly serious. Here he is training in hopes of catching up.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
I think that's the problem here...Everyone is talking like Max Power Roshi is like Golden Frieza or something when it's just...Roshi at his strongest. What else would he even be comparing others to? Had he compared them to his relaxed state he would have said oh they can make me get slightly serious. Here he is training in hopes of catching up.
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I find it perfect that you mention Frieza here because well... Frieza has a form that functions exactly the same, literally just being his body accommodating to 100% of his power
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
As for this, I disagree with a compromise personally. For me, it's very clear this entire arc is to show how everyone is starting to surpass the past showings, which as others brought up is supported as well with statements about Goku surpassing Roshi. With Roshi himself stating Tien can straight up beat him, and having a technique superior to his best, I just don't see room for doubt.

The only point of contention is if we consider that Roshi is taking into consideration his MAX or not. I believe, based on narrative and implications, he is. So yeah, solid 5-C to me.
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As I said except stating otherwise Roshi should be taking into account his max power form as it is not a form just him using his full power. That much is stated. If he didn't compare them to his max power he would have stated as much and not feel the need to train to maybe catch up.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I find it perfect that you mention Frieza here because well... Frieza has a form that functions exactly the same, literally just being his body accommodating to 100% of his power
Click to expand...
Yeah that's what Roshi is doing just buffing himself up to hold all his power. It would make zero sense for comparisons to not be to his max power if he thinks they have surpassed him. And even if that were the case he would have stated as much. Here he outright says he can't beat Goku or Tien,
 
I normally hate using dubious Power Level ratings recorded by 3rd party companies, but Roshi being 139 in base form is a known recording in the manga. With his PL being 180 in max power which is the same as Tien and Goku during 22nd Budokai by multiple 3rd part sources. Roshi does outright state Goku is stronger than Roshi even at his peak and doubted if he could even beat Goku at all anymore. Hence why he even wanted Tien to replace him in the first place. So Roshi stating that Goku and Tien are both stronger than himself with him also stating Tien can beat Goku while he himself cannot is very consistent.

And later down the line, Tien does still have consistency to be within the same ballpark in terms of speed with the likes of King Piccolo. I know that was supposed to be discussed next, but it's worth noting Piccolo's attacks should be both stronger and faster than the Max Power Kamahameha wave (He was stated that he would be immune to even the Max Power Kamehameha wave by Master Roshi). Tien was also able to react to King Piccolo's Destructive Wave to rescue Goku. And if his speed is within the same ballpark and knowing Dragon Ball's consistent PL functions, he really cannot be too much weaker than Max Power Roshi.
 
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Damage3245 said:
Can you provide the source or scan for Master Roshi's Max Power form having that Power Level?
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It wasn't original manga where 180 comes from. Daizenshuu 7 while not foolproof is definitely more reliable than movie Pamphlet. I'll post image on Discord as it's easier to handle URL stuff if it's via Discordapp.
 
I'll post a counter-argument tomorrow taking the new information into account.
 

For the DC=AP argument​

Attack Potency​

An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction.

The Kikoho or tri-beam does damage in a specific area of effect. When master roshi uses, the Kamehameha shown in the first time in the series, he destroys a mountain and a castle at full power He had no reason to destroy a moon size object when its not needed. Thus he controlled the area of effect so that it only destroys what he needs to destroy. An example would be someone like semi-perfect cell, he was able to reduce the potency and area of effect of his attacks so he only destroys islands and not strong enough to kill android 18 (unless you think android 18 and semi-perfect are only island level in dc and ap). Or with spopovich weakening his own ki blast so it doesn't kill videl. With Majin Vegeta final attack only creating a crator of 1 km and piccolo jr Super Explosive Demon Wave only destroying the entire tournament arena ground. Or with Rose black were he states he wants to kill the humans on the planet not the planet itself. All these examples are to prove that they can manipulate or influence the destructive capacity of their own ki attacks while retaining the potency related to the strength and quantity of their ki to harm or kill characters who can withstand such forces.


For the tien doesn't scale to roshi 5-C ki attack argument

Roshi made a special training to beat Son Goku. Whom he admitted was likely superior to him. The same Son Goku that Tien admitted was stronger then him. With a Kikoho from Tien, Roshi and Tien admits it can kill Goku. Even goku admits it would have killed him on impact. And the same Roshi that trained also admits that while fighting Tien he would have likely lost and directly explains that the Kamehameha wave doesn't come close to the Kikoho a move that can even kill the user. And we know that there are limits to physical statistics but can be overcome with ki and the higher the ki the higher the physical stats increases. This means, the Kikoho that Tien used against goku would have been stronger than Roshi's pass and likely current 5-C AP Kamehameha since this 5-C roshi trained to beat goku whom he admitted was likely stronger than him. And that same stronger 5-C roshi admits he could lose to tien and tien can one shot this Goku with a single held back tri-beam.

This means even if Roshi could go full power with a Kamehameha wave and use it against Goku or Tien (with an AP of 5-C), they would be able to take it or overpower it or it wouldn't be enough. It would not have beaten that Goku and likely not Tien. Otherwise Roshi would not need to train if he was stronger as he could just use more power that he already have. And in a small tangent, he was accurately able to gage that even if he and Tien fought old king piccolo they would lose and resorts to use the mafuba instead to seal him despite knowing he has access to his full power Kamehameha wave.

I disagree with the changes. ​

 
Serlock_Holmes said:
So in what category is it superior? Also max power isn't the kaioken. The fact kaioken could boost stats was something new at that point. Max power was just roshi using his full ki and his body accomodating it. Also there is this image.
8009530-e9caea38-6648-41c3-878a-c5e6ff809a42.jpeg
Click to expand...
It's superior in AP and DC, to the REGULAR KAMEHAMEHA, not the moon booming one
Serlock_Holmes said:
And this image states what exactly full power is which as we said is him using his whole ki.
Screenshot-2021-02-06-Kanzentai-Translations.png
Click to expand...
What does this do for the point at all

The point is that that isn't his regular power level at all. That can't be his power level for his regular scrawny form

CloverDragon03 said:
I find it perfect that you mention Frieza here because well... Frieza has a form that functions exactly the same, literally just being his body accommodating to 100% of his power
Click to expand...
Yeah, and it RAISES HIS POWER LEVEL

Frieza has 3 main power levels stated, his most suppressed (530,000), his 2nd most suppressed (1,000,000), his full power (120,000,000).
What he's trying to say is that the Frieza who is in his full power would technically be the 530,000 power level one
Therefir said:
CloverDragon03 is making way more sense here, and I'm genuinely baffled by the use of AOE fallacy as an argument for the Tri-Beam scaling below the Full Power Kamehameha.
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Chariot190 said:
To be fair.

The Tribeam is the prime example of AOE=/=AP. It's a localized **** you beam that effects, almost exclusively, what is in the POV of Tien's hand gesture, whether that be here, against Cell, or in Super.

Not saying I agree or disagree, but bringing up the attack's AOE ain't it.
Click to expand...
WHAT THE ****

Did none of you not read the damn argument at all?

They say that the tri beam has more DC and AP than the kamehameha

The DC of the Tri-Beam was enough to destroy an arena
The DC of the average Kamehameha barely breaks through walls and makes tiny explosions
The DC of the strongest kamehameha is enough to boom the moon

Him saying the AP and the DC of the Tri-Beam is superior to the Kamehameha is referencing the average Kamehameha and not the full power one
The DC of the technique is supporting the fact that him saying "the AP and the DC of the Tri-Beam > the Kamehameha" does not mean "the AP and the DC of the Tri-Beam > the STRONGEST kamehameha", but "the AP and the DC of the Tri-Beam > the average Kamehamehas we've seen throughout the series"

None of you guys are reading the ******* argument and it's actually really annoying
What the hell is so hard to understand about "him saying the AP and DC of this technique is superior to the Kamehameha, but showing to be superior to the average but inferior to the strongest one, means it's stronger than the average one and weaker than the strongest"
 
Let's be honest, you have no way of knowing or proving if this "average Kamehameha" even exists, or if they were referring to it, I think the statement coming from Master Roshi himself, and the fact that he was really impressed makes me believe he was talking about his strongest Kamehameha, which is nothing more than a normal Kamehameha but him going full power.

Furthermore, I can't ignore the arc's subtle but clear intention to have the Z fighters reach and perhaps even surpass Roshi's previous showings, forcing him to train to keep up with them.

So I stand with Clover and Lephyr's arguments, it looks to me that Damage and KT are splitting hairs in something that is really clear and straightforward.
 
Master Roshi said the suppressed Tri-Beam shown to destroy the arena has more destructive capacity than the Kamehameha

Destroying the arena is not a better destructive feat than destroying the moon

So unless you want to completely ignore half his statement, then be my guest

And yes, I can prove the "average kamehameha" exists, because even Goku when he came back as a grown ass man talked about his "Super Kamehameha", implying that there is a regular one and a super one

The Z fighters can reach and surpass Roshi's previous showings, but these are the same Z fighters who are fighting this Roshi in every single tournament arc
latest.png

Instead of this Roshi
q6kdhpgk6mc41.png


"He surpassed me" but he struggles with you in base form.
 
RedReaper said:
like the Kamehameha, which is false because it's actually 2.22x
Click to expand...
Uhh, that's the Super Kamehameha

Kamehameha is likely far below this multiplier as Goku could reflect it with his bare hands despite the fact he could fight hand-to-hand against the one who fired it, Krillin! I'll be blunt and say I disagree with the original post, but this is just something that is not true for Roshi.
 
The panel you yourself shared have Roshi stating that the Tri-Beam is so colossally powerful that it drains one's own energy, which is not something that Roshi's Full Power Kamehameha did (future Kamehamehas are irrelevant to this statement).

In fact, I think you are twisting Roshi's words, he first praises the Tri-Beam destructive force, yes, and then he makes a pause, only to say that the Tri-Beam is many times more powerful than the Kamehameha.

It can't be any more clear than that, and the Super Kamehameha? It's just a stronger technique unrelated to Roshi's original Kamehameha.
 
The arguments for Tien scaling to 5-C don't hold up when we actually take a look at them deeper than surface-level speed reading.

"Roshi has a power level of 139 while Tien has a power level of 180"

Regular Kamehameha boost the power level of the individual using it. Master Roshi's Max Powered Kamehameha would be far superior to even that. There's nothing indicating that Tien's 180 is superior to Master Roshi's unknown Max Kamehameha power level.

"Roshi was sweating buckets when he saw Tri-Beam"

Roshi was shocked about the destructive capacity that the Tri-Beam had when comparing it to the Kamehameha. We know that this comparison doesn't cover Roshi's 5-C Kamehameha because the destructive capacity of that Kamehameha was large enough to destroy a moon while Tien's only destroyed an arena.

"Korin and others say that Goku > Roshi, so that means Tien > Roshi as well"

I heavily doubt that this includes Roshi's max power considering how people with similar statements are still relative to Roshi's normal form as KT mentioned above.


Overall, I agree with a 'far higher' rating for Tri-Beam. Possibly and full ratings don't make sense FRA.
 
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