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22nd Budokai Arc Downgrades (Dragon Ball)

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KingTempest said:
"A move of destructive force... many times more powerful than even the Kamehameha"
It uses powerful to note how it's just greater in DC. That's why they're part of the same sentence
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This... still changes nothing. You'd still be faced with the fact that there's a literal Kamehameha that's 5-C in Destructive Capacity
KingTempest said:
Wtf

I'm acknowledging that it's saying it hits hard, but the main part is that its DC is superior to the Kamehameha.
"
It's a strong move, but one of its aspects is superior to the Kamehameha. That doesn't mean everything hyped up > Kamehameha.
"This attack is wide spread, hot, powerful, and extremely energy taxing. It could cause more widespread damage than my attack" your logic is scale everything that it hypes up to the specific attack
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An aspect that emphasizes the power of the attack. Hell, in the second scan when looking at the result of Tien's attack, Roshi legit says "What destruction... What power..."

Clearly, it's both its destructive capacity and its sheer power that are of note here, not just one. A fact that is consistent with how the Tri-Beam has been described in this moment by Roshi in other instances.

I just find it ridiculous that "more powerful than the Kamehameha" suddenly doesn't mean "more powerful than the Kamehameha"
KingTempest said:
There is NOTHING that points it to superior AP.
Click to expand...
Except... Everything that's been explained to point to this already...
KingTempest said:
Specifically stated to be not that far held back and he only needed to leave a decent amount of his energy for himself.
If he minimized it by a small amount like that it should've still blew up a portion of that entire city.

Even if it's 1% of the full power of the attack, it'd still cause ridiculous damage to the surroundings
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Going from "draining one's life force" to "still having some energy left" is a pretty big downgrade imo

And either way, the destruction part makes no sense however you slice it. Roshi has no business being astounded by Tien's attack when it caused less destruction than what he himself could muster, unless it was related to its actual AP.
KingTempest said:
I'd expect it to show something that's akin to the full power kamehameha requiring Roshi to change states, not the average destructive power of the Kamehameha.

The average Kamehameha puts holes in walls and makes room sized explosions. The strongest Kamehameha we see blows up the moon.
His is stated to have more destructive power than the Kamehameha, then he blows up the stadium, and Roshi says "yes, it has more destructive power than the Kamehameha"

It destroying the arena is now more AOE than the moon busting Kamehameha?

It looks to be the average Kamehameha instead of Roshi's damn strongest one
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Requiring the user to change states is something exclusive to Roshi, first of all.

And as I said before, the destructive capacity thing gets scuffed no matter which angle you look at it from because of how all the pieces come together. And if you really wanted to average out all the Kamehamehas in the series to take this as literally as possible, you'd end up with a very high Tier 6 result
 
"What destruction.... What power.... one can't even begin to compare it to the Kamehameha"

This statement, in my opinion, more so implies that the technique of Tri-Beam is superior to Kamehameha in a general sense. It doesn't specifically focus on one's usage of the technique, but that Tri-Beam produces more destructive force and power compared to the Kamehameha. A generalized technique difference, not an individuals usage of either technique.

I can see why people would include Roshi's max power as it was Roshi who made this statement, and was actively sweating because of the destructive force and power created. This is a valid interpretation to have, but I would lean more so to Damage and KT's side compared to the opposite.

Roshi having knowledge of his max power doesn't mean much currently to this statement since the argument is about what's actually being compared here, one's individual power or a generalized technique difference. So I would leave this discussion out until the former is resolved.

Roshi sweating after seeing Tien's technique could provide nice confidence scaling, but it's just that, confidence scaling. It doesn't provide much in-terms of concrete evidence as we're making presuppositions as to why he was sweating, was he sweating because the output of the attack was above his max power Kamehameha, or was he sweating because of the destructive force and potency behind the attack was greatly above Kamehameha as a technique. Not necessarily including his own maximal usage. We don't know for sure. So making assumptions, regardless of which end you believe is true, would still be assumptive.

I could see a valid argument for a possibly rating, but that's about it. I'm fine with either removing it completely or granting the rating a possibly.
 
If there's uncertainty then possibly seems perfectly valid like what Deceived said.

Sometimes I think people forget that's an option for these verses no inbetweens only absolutes
 
When a guy who has destroyed a moon with his Kamehameha, sees an attack, and marvels at its destructiveness and power while sweating and comparing it to the technique he himself used, common sense and occam's razor tells us that at the very least, that technique scales higher than the person making the claim or he would NOT BE SO SHOCKED, and if he was talking about just his normal form, not max power Kamehameha, he would have separated it

Master Roshi never said tien might have won against his normal form alone, he has infact used his full power form in the tournament before, so on what basis would he job have used it here?


This is basically taking blatant character statements on comparative abilities and tossing then out in favor of possible and alternate theories just to downgrade the characters. I have never seen this done before
 
Deceived3596 said:
"What destruction.... What power.... one can't even begin to compare it to the Kamehameha"

This statement, in my opinion, more so implies that the technique of Tri-Beam is superior to Kamehameha in a general sense. It doesn't specifically focus on one's usage of the technique, but that Tri-Beam produces more destructive force and power compared to the Kamehameha. A generalized technique difference, not an individuals usage of either technique.

I can see why people would include Roshi's max power as it was Roshi who made this statement, and was actively sweating because of the destructive force and power created. This is a valid interpretation to have, but I would lean more so to Damage and KT's side compared to the opposite.

Roshi having knowledge of his max power doesn't mean much currently to this statement since the argument is about what's actually being compared here, one's individual power or a generalized technique difference. So I would leave this discussion out until the former is resolved.

Roshi sweating after seeing Tien's technique could provide nice confidence scaling, but it's just that, confidence scaling. It doesn't provide much in-terms of concrete evidence as we're making presuppositions as to why he was sweating, was he sweating because the output of the attack was above his max power Kamehameha, or was he sweating because of the destructive force and potency behind the attack was greatly above Kamehameha as a technique. Not necessarily including his own maximal usage. We don't know for sure. So making assumptions, regardless of which end you believe is true, would still be assumptive.

I could see a valid argument for a possibly rating, but that's about it. I'm fine with either removing it completely or granting the rating a possibly.
Click to expand...
Also, Roshi based his statement off of the destruction caused by the Tri-Beam, which only obliterated the arena.
 
Based on the discussion above, I am more sure than ever that Tien's Tri-Beam at this time should absolutely not be solidly scaling to Master Roshi's feat.
 
Agree with clover here. We have no reason to believe Roshi wasn't also talking about his own kamehameha and seeing as he is the creator he sort of told that hey this one has surpassed all the kamehameha I have ever seen including the one I destroyed the moon with. Also lol at the fact that regular beams need to destroy something to show their potency? Have we gone back like a decade? And the full power kamehameha should downscale to roshi's durability. He has that much ki and he can use it. As defense he has to use it more sparingle but it would still end up comparing to him using his full power kamehameha in the long run.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
Agree with clover here. We have no reason to believe Roshi wasn't also talking about his own kamehameha and seeing as he is the creator he sort of told that hey this one has surpassed all the kamehameha I have ever seen including the one I destroyed the moon with. Also lol at the fact that regular beams need to destroy something to show their potency? Have we gone back like a decade? And the full power kamehameha should downscale to roshi's durability. He has that much ki and he can use it. As defense he has to use it more sparingle but it would still end up comparing to him using his full power kamehameha in the long run.
Click to expand...
We are not told that the Tri-Beam surpasses all Kamehameha in existence.
 
Damage3245 said:
We are not told that the Tri-Beam surpasses all Kamehameha in existence.
Click to expand...
Are you telling me you wanted the manga to specifically say all kamehameha in existence and him saying the kamehameha as in it has surpassed the known limits of the technigue as the creator knows it isn't enough?
The same creator who shot the kamehameha in question but doesn't even begin to compare it to the show of power this technigue had?
The only reason it woudn't surpass Roshi's kamehameha is if Tien had lower Ki than Roshi as that move is superior to the kamehameha. But him remarking at how strong it was strongly speaks about where he stands on that. It should absolutely be comparable.
Had Roshi just said that it's a better technigue you could maybe say that it was not his intent to compare it to his own. However remarking on it's power and destruction speaks volumes about what he was saying which is that it had surpassed all the kamehameha including the one he had done.
Those sentences complete each other's meaning.
 
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Serlock_Holmes said:
Are you telling me you wanted the manga to specifically say all kamehameha in existence and him saying the kamehameha as in it has surpassed the known limits of the technigue as the creator knows it isn't enough? The same creator who shot the kamehameha in question but doesn't even begin to compare to the show of power this technigue had?
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In order to solidly scale the Tri-Beam here, yes. There is no reason to default to the highest-possible interpretation.

When we compare Tien's Tri-Beam destruction to the destruction of every ordinary Kamehameha then we can see his Tri-Beam is superior to them which makes sense with Roshi's statement.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Doesn't explain the pure shock Roshi has, specifically noting its power as well, which wouldn't be such a massively shocking thing if it wasn't superior to his own power.

Why would destroying the arena be any shocking to him when he can nuke the moon?
Click to expand...
Because - excluding his Max Power - that is the most destructive thing we've seen with Ki blasts up to this point.

For all we know, Roshi, without his Max Power, wouldn't be capable of replicating such a feat.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Doesn't explain the pure shock Roshi has, specifically noting its power as well, which wouldn't be such a massively shocking thing if it wasn't superior to his own power.

Why would destroying the arena be any shocking to him when he can nuke the moon?
Click to expand...
And destory a mountain.
Damage3245 said:
In order to solidly scale the Tri-Beam here, yes. There is no reason to default to the highest-possible interpretation.

When we compare Tien's Tri-Beam destruction to the destruction of every ordinary Kamehameha then we can see his Tri-Beam is superior to them which makes sense with Roshi's statement.
Click to expand...
Dude had sweat running off and was looking at the hole with popping eyes? And that's because he thought the technigue is superior to just normal kamehameha? Also I repeat what I said. If this technigue is better than the kamehameha and Tien had ki comparable to Roshi then he is also at that tier of strenght. All dragonball attacks are fueled by ki thus if Tien has enough ki he is comparable to Roshi.
 
Damage3245 said:
Because - excluding his Max Power - that is the most destructive thing we've seen with Ki blasts up to this point.

For all we know, Roshi, without his Max Power, wouldn't be capable of replicating such a feat.
Click to expand...
But you can't exclude the MP kamehameha as it is still a kamehameha. You know the same technigue that doesn't even begin to compare to tri beam....I repeat doesn't even begin to compare to the kamehameha and it was said by the person with the most destructive kamehameha. He literally shit on his own display of power with his statements.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
But why arbitrarily exclude his max power? When he himself is capable of such insane feats
Click to expand...
But why include his Max Power?

It's not the Kamehameha that generates Moon level potency by itself, it's because it's powered by Roshi's maximum power, using all of his Ki.

Roshi, without using his maximum power is on par with Tien. So we have:

Max Power Roshi >>>>> Roshi ~ Tien.

Roshi, using all of his power normally, is inferior to Max Power Roshi's full power.

So why would Tien, who is on par with Roshi normally, be superior to Max Power Roshi when using all of his Ki?
 
Damage3245 said:
But why include his Max Power?

It's not the Kamehameha that generates Moon level potency by itself, it's because it's powered by Roshi's maximum power, using all of his Ki.

Roshi, without using his maximum power is on par with Tien. So we have:

Max Power Roshi >>>>> Roshi ~ Tien.

Roshi, using all of his power normally, is inferior to Max Power Roshi's full power.

So why would Tien, who is on par with Roshi normally, be superior to Max Power Roshi when using all of his Ki?
Click to expand...
Few things here.

First off, I'm gonna reiterate once more that the decision to exclude his Max Power Kamehameha seems to wholly be a choice made for convenience. Is it not a Kamehameha?

Also Tien was going to beat Roshi had their fight continued, so... yeah. Plus, MAX Power Roshi being so vastly above his base form is very unsupported to begin with. "But his base form is High 8-C-" Yes, I know, and I find it ridiculous because such a gap in power is never actually shown. Biggest example of this is the Tournament of Power.

MAX Power Roshi is Roshi's full power
 
Damage3245 said:
But why include his Max Power?

It's not the Kamehameha that generates Moon level potency by itself, it's because it's powered by Roshi's maximum power, using all of his Ki.

Roshi, without using his maximum power is on par with Tien. So we have:

Max Power Roshi >>>>> Roshi ~ Tien.

Roshi, using all of his power normally, is inferior to Max Power Roshi's full power.

So why would Tien, who is on par with Roshi normally, be superior to Max Power Roshi when using all of his Ki?
Click to expand...
Do we have any proof than Tien has less ki than Max Power Roshi? Roshi did get bulked up during the fight to a significant degree and they were pretty even and none had used all their power.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Few things here.

First off, I'm gonna reiterate once more that the decision to exclude his Max Power Kamehameha seems to wholly be a choice made for convenience. Is it not a Kamehameha?
Click to expand...

It's not a typical Kamehameha because Roshi can fire off with the Kamehameha without resorting to his Max Power form.

If we have a bunch of Kamehameha's used by different users and they vary along the lines of 9-C, 8-C, 8-B, etc. then although there is some general variation we can see a rough ballpark for a typical Kamehameha at this time.

That goes out the window when you throw in 5-C in there.

Now we have Tien's attack which is apparently 8-A or along those lines. If you're comparing that to the typical Kamehameha we see, then it is perfectly consistent. But the Moon-busting one is an obvious outlier among all seen Kamehameha. I need more than just an assumption on Roshi's statement that he's specifically including the one that destroyed the Moon.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Few things here.

First off, I'm gonna reiterate once more that the decision to exclude his Max Power Kamehameha seems to wholly be a choice made for convenience. Is it not a Kamehameha?

Also Tien was going to beat Roshi had their fight continued, so... yeah. Plus, MAX Power Roshi being so vastly above his base form is very unsupported to begin with. "But his base form is High 8-C-" Yes, I know, and I find it ridiculous because such a gap in power is never actually shown. Biggest example of this is the Tournament of Power.

MAX Power Roshi is Roshi's full power
Click to expand...
Yeah that. It's not as if it's a new form like Super Saiyan or Golden Frieza. It's Roshi using all his power that he usually conserves as that state has bigger needs for ki.
 
Damage3245 said:
It's not a typical Kamehameha because Roshi can fire off with the Kamehameha without resorting to his Max Power form.

If we have a bunch of Kamehameha's used by different users and they vary along the lines of 9-C, 8-C, 8-B, etc. then although there is some general variation we can see a rough ballpark for a typical Kamehameha at this time.

That goes out the window when you throw in 5-C in there.

Now we have Tien's attack which is apparently 8-A or along those lines. If you're comparing that to the typical Kamehameha we see, then it is perfectly consistent. But the Moon-busting one is an obvious outlier among all seen Kamehameha. I need more than just an assumption on Roshi's statement that he's specifically including the one that destroyed the Moon.
Click to expand...
The only reason they have such values is again due to ki so saying that hey they are that low has no significance. If they had more ki they could shoot moon level attacks, planet, star whatever you want. Nothing that you say takes into account how the Db ki system works.
 
Damage3245 said:
It's not a typical Kamehameha because Roshi can fire off with the Kamehameha without resorting to his Max Power form.

If we have a bunch of Kamehameha's used by different users and they vary along the lines of 9-C, 8-C, 8-B, etc. then although there is some general variation we can see a rough ballpark for a typical Kamehameha at this time.

That goes out the window when you throw in 5-C in there.

Now we have Tien's attack which is apparently 8-A or along those lines. If you're comparing that to the typical Kamehameha we see, then it is perfectly consistent. But the Moon-busting one is an obvious outlier among all seen Kamehameha. I need more than just an assumption on Roshi's statement that he's specifically including the one that destroyed the Moon.
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter if it's a supposed "outlier" because we're not taking such things into account. It's a Kamehameha, so it qualifies on the most objective level, such that it hardly leaves any room for debate.

Roshi can output 5-C level energy with his Kamehameha, and yet not only did Tien's Tri-Beam leave him dumbfounded, but he once more commented on how the Kamehameha couldn't begin to compare. Like, genuinely, I don't see how it can get more clear-cut without specifically saying "it's stronger than MAX Power Roshi's Kamehameha," and the problem lies in that you're expecting such a specific statement rather than extrapolating it from basic implications.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Doesn't matter if it's a supposed "outlier" because we're not taking such things into account. It's a Kamehameha, so it qualifies on the most objective level, such that it hardly leaves any room for debate.

Roshi can output 5-C level energy with his Kamehameha, and yet not only did Tien's Tri-Beam leave him dumbfounded, but he once more commented on how the Kamehameha couldn't begin to compare. Like, genuinely, I don't see how it can get more clear-cut without specifically saying "it's stronger than MAX Power Roshi's Kamehameha," and the problem lies in that you're expecting such a specific statement rather than extrapolating it from basic implications.
Click to expand...

In this case, I think more specific scaling is warranted when the context points to Tien's Tri-Beam not being that powerful. Like it's been said, why would Master Roshi note the destructiveness of the technique if the Kamehameha can nuke celestial bodies? The most logical explanation is that he wasn't comparing it to that the Max Power Kamehameha.

Looks like the votes are currently split KT and myself opting for "higher" and DDM and Lephyr opting for "5-C".

If I have to, I'll compromise on a Possibly 5-C for Tien's Tri-Beam to avoid this being dragged out, but I would really like to change their minds or get more staff input.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Doesn't matter if it's a supposed "outlier" because we're not taking such things into account. It's a Kamehameha, so it qualifies on the most objective level, such that it hardly leaves any room for debate.

Roshi can output 5-C level energy with his Kamehameha, and yet not only did Tien's Tri-Beam leave him dumbfounded, but he once more commented on how the Kamehameha couldn't begin to compare. Like, genuinely, I don't see how it can get more clear-cut without specifically saying "it's stronger than MAX Power Roshi's Kamehameha," and the problem lies in that you're expecting such a specific statement rather than extrapolating it from basic implications.
Click to expand...
Do we have enough basis that Tien has ki on nearly the same level as the total ki of Roshi?
 
Damage3245 said:
In this case, I think more specific scaling is warranted when the context points to Tien's Tri-Beam not being that powerful. Like it's been said, why would Master Roshi note the destructiveness of the technique if the Kamehameha can nuke celestial bodies? The most logical explanation is that he wasn't comparing it to that the Max Power Kamehameha.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of thing that can't be explained away no matter which approach you take. If you say it's not that level, it wouldn't explain why such a display of power shocked Roshi (who even commented on its power) when he himself is capable of so much more. If you say it is, you question why would Roshi comment on its destructiveness?

I don't find your explanation to be the most logical one
 
CloverDragon03 said:
This is the kind of thing that can't be explained away no matter which approach you take. If you say it's not that level, it wouldn't explain why such a display of power shocked Roshi (who even commented on its power) when he himself is capable of so much more. If you say it is, you question why would Roshi comment on its destructiveness?

I don't find your explanation to be the most logical one
Click to expand...

Because Roshi isn't comparing it to his own power. He isn't saying "That technique is more powerful than anything I could do."

We see Tien use the Kamehameha too and it's not that powerful. Roshi wasn't sweating buckets at Tien's Kamehameha. So essentially we're directly shown: Tien's Tri-Beam >>> Tien's Kamehameha.

The same user using two techniques which concentrate Ki, but one is vastly more powerful than the other.

The only way it makes sense to say that Tien's Tri-Beam > Max Power Roshi's Kamehameha, is if Tien normally is stronger than Max Power Roshi which isn't the case.
 
Damage3245 said:
Because Roshi isn't comparing it to his own power. He isn't saying "That technique is more powerful than anything I could do."

We see Tien use the Kamehameha too and it's not that powerful. Roshi wasn't sweating buckets at Tien's Kamehameha. So essentially we're directly shown: Tien's Tri-Beam >>> Tien's Kamehameha.

The same user using two techniques which concentrate Ki, but one is vastly more powerful than the other.

The only way it makes sense to say that Tien's Tri-Beam > Max Power Roshi's Kamehameha, is if Tien normally is stronger than Max Power Roshi which isn't the case.
Click to expand...
If Tien is comparable then it straight up is the same. If Tien is slightly below him then they are still the same as he said tri-beam is a better technigue. We are currently arguing that Roshi has enough Ki to shoot a 5-C attack but he is shocked or considers noteworthy an 8-C move. The more I think about it the more ridiculous it gets. So Roshi has enough power that even 0,1% of it if we take the total being the 5-C kamehameha can kill everyone there simultaneously but he is somehow worried about any of it? Literally him using 1/1000 of his total should kill everyone there with his pinky.
 
Serlock_Holmes said:
If Tien is comparable then it straight up is the same. If Tien is slightly below him then they are still the same as he said tri-beam is a better technigue. We are currently arguing that Roshi has enough Ki to shoot a 5-C attack but he is shocked or considers noteworthy an 8-C move. The more I think about it the more ridiculous it gets. So Roshi has enough power that even 0,1% of it if we take the total being the 5-C kamehameha can kill everyone there simultaneously but he is somehow worried about any of it? Literally him using 1/1000 of his total should kill everyone there with his pinky.
Click to expand...
Yes. That's what happens with powerscaling sometimes. Dragon Ball (especially early DB) wasn't written with powerscaling in mind being taken seriously.

So we sometimes get ridiculous things like this, like apparently the characters being able to move at Relativistic speeds in combat but only being able to fly at Supersonic speeds.
 
Wouldn't it make more sense that they are all actually close in power and that kamehameha was just pushed to the max level of destruction instead of being condensed? Not saying Max Power Roshi isn't above most at this point but if they are somewhat similar then they all downscale from him.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
Reading the discussion above I think the first option works best.
Click to expand...
Okay, thank you.

Hypertornado099 said:
You should also note down the agreements/disagreements we have so far, otherwise this thread will never end
Click to expand...
Everyone agrees with the thread, it's just the Tri-Beam part that's been conflicted.


Agrees with "Far Higher": Damage3245, KingTempest, Maverick_Zero_X

Agrees with "Possibly Moon level": DarkDragonMedeus

Agrees with "Moon level": LephyrTheRevanchist
 
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