22nd Budokai Arc Downgrades (Dragon Ball)

[RedReaper]

I don't understand the opposition, here.

The stance is that, comparatively, the Tri-Beam is the superior technique (so when used by say, the same person, it's output would be larger than the Kamehameha Wave.)

Which on a baseline level makes sense.

Except...Roshi says Tien likely would have beaten him. Meaning they are bare minimum comparable. Thus, the amplifer on the Tri-Beam being higher in comparison to his own attack would LOGICALLY then get you Moon level.

Further, Roshi's Moon Bust was when he was weaker, at a PL of 139. Whilst the Kamehameha DOES amplify one's PL, since you, again, are claiming that the Tri-Beam is a superior amplifier being used by a weaker person, I should be able to just find Tie-

Oh. Oooooh. Tien has a PL of 180. Just like Daimao Piccolo Saga Roshi. (The guy who claimed Tien would win). So he should still be Moon Level.

In order for your argument to work, not only do you have to consider the blatant statements being made wrong, you'd also have to be so bad at math you think the Tri-Beam is simulatanously a better multiplier than the Kamehameha and YET reduces Tien's Power.

Edit: Also, narratively your point doesn't make sense. The whole point of the story at that time was that living maliciously WOULD grant more power in the short term, but hurt you in the long term. In order for the story to make sense for the messages it was TRYING to go for, Tien would HAVE to be stronger so then Roshi could then prove via being more worldly and knowledgeable that Tien's ill-gotten strength would never surpass righteously gotten strength.

Narratively, numerically, and logically based on character statements, the Tri-Beam has to be above Roshi's highest level of power. Also, Tien also must be near Roshi in power because the whole point of setting them equal is to then use Tien as a benchmark for when Goku appears for Daimao Piccolo's fight. Especially since Roshi challenged OLD Piccolo, and Tien was to fight YOUNG Piccolo. This is also why Tien is to learn the Mafuba. By creating the link of Tien >= Roshi, anything Tien witnesses that would blow his top off is to then let us, the viewer, know that Roshi would be EQUALLY astonished.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Oh yes Tien has a higher power level. It would make no sense for him to be weaker than Roshi. If anything he is higher than him. Literally it's stated in Daizenshuu 7 that tien is 180 to Roshi's 139.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't understand the opposition, here.

The stance is that, comparatively, the Tri-Beam is the superior technique (so when used by say, the same person, it's output would be larger than the Kamehameha Wave.)

Which on a baseline level makes sense.

Except...Roshi says Tien likely would have beaten him. Meaning they are bare minimum comparable. Thus, the amplifer on the Tri-Beam being higher in comparison to his own attack would LOGICALLY then get you Moon level.

Further, Roshi's Moon Bust was when he was weaker, at a PL of 139. Whilst the Kamehameha DOES amplify one's PL, since you, again, are claiming that the Tri-Beam is a superior amplifier being used by a weaker person, I should be able to just find Tie-

Oh. Oooooh. Tien has a PL of 180. Just like Daimao Piccolo Saga Roshi. So he should still be Moon Level.

In order for your argument to work, not only do you have to consider the blatant statements being made wrong, you'd also have to be so bad at math you think the Tri-Beam is simulatanously a better multiplier than the Kamehameha and YET reduces Tien's Power.

Tri Beam > The basic Kamehameha used by Roshi ~ the basic kamehamehas used by everybody else there

He said "the destruction and power is superior to the kamehameha" when he saw an arena busting technique when he's the same dude who destroyed the moon

It's referencing the baseline level

Tien would've beaten him cause he can reflect energy attacks

On top of that, Roshi wasn't using his full power against em. Would've lost to Tien w/out using his full power

Also, Roshi's 139 power level is base regular strength regular combat Roshi, not strengthened + full power + kamehameha < MAX POWER kamehameha strength

The entirety of your argument is false

 

[RedReaper]

MAX Power Roshi, as discussed earlier, is not some additional form or increase. It is simply his FULL POWER he keeps under wraps. And the Kamehameha as an increase is only ~2x, as shown to us in the battle against Raditz. As Tien is equal to a superior Roshi + has a "superior power amplifier technique," regardless Tien should be in the Moon level of power. ESPECIALLY when you consider Piccolo did it at a PL of ~400. Assuming it's only double, (like the Kamehameha, which is false because it's actually 2.22x), Tien's Tri Beam would be bare minimum 360+. Quite literally only a drop or two away, and remember, you're claiming it's SUPERIOR to the amp Kamehameha gives. It doesn't work out. Not narratively. Not numerically. And certainly not when you consider the character statements at play.

Edit: And if you do the numbers properly, 2.22 x 180 is 399.6, or literally 7 away from Piccolo's Moon Bust PL.

Tri Beam > The basic Kamehameha used by Roshi ~ the basic kamehamehas used by everybody else there

He said "the destruction and power is superior to the kamehameha" when he saw an arena busting technique when he's the same dude who destroyed the moon

It's referencing the baseline level

Tien would've beaten him cause he can reflect energy attacks

On top of that, Roshi wasn't using his full power against em. Would've lost to Tien w/out using his full power

Also, Roshi's 139 power level is base regular strength regular combat Roshi, not strengthened + full power + kamehameha < MAX POWER kamehameha strength

The entirety of your argument is false

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Also and correct me if I'm wrong king piccolo has a power level of 260 and yet Roshi wouldn't beat him. So his stated 180 at that point shouldn't be his base but rather his max and it would be equal to tienshihan during his saga. That would also be in line with the fact that roshi had 139 at that time and his brother a little bit less at 120.

 

[Damage3245]

Also and correct me if I'm wrong king piccolo has a power level of 260 and yet Roshi wouldn't beat him. So his stated 180 at that point shouldn't be his base but rather his max and it would be equal to tienshihan during his saga. That would also be in line with the fact that roshi had 139 at that time and his brother a little bit less at 120.

We're not getting into King Piccolo stuff at this time. That's for another thread.

 

[KingTempest]

MAX Power Roshi, as discussed earlier, is not some additional form or increase. It is simply his FULL POWER he keeps under wraps. And the Kamehameha as an increase is only ~2x, as shown to us in the battle against Raditz. As Tien is equal to a superior Roshi + has a "superior power amplifier technique," regardless Tien should be in the Moon level of power. ESPECIALLY when you consider Piccolo did it at a PL of ~400. Assuming it's only double, (like the Kamehameha, which is false because it's actually 2.22x), Tien's Tri Beam would be bare minimum 360+. Quite literally only a drop or two away, and remember, you're claiming it's SUPERIOR to the amp Kamehameha gives. It doesn't work out. Not narratively. Not numerically. And certainly not when you consider the character statements at play.

Everything you said is wrong and/or useless.

Max Power Roshi is his max power, via the body amping transformation that increases all his stats, which would increase your power level.
A power level is the level of your ki as you are. Amps not revealed wouldn't be measured in your power level. Which is why people can suppress their power levels.

The Kamehameha is never stated to have a set power increase. Ever.

Tien's physicals were equal to a old non full power Roshi, so spare me the bs.

And nobody ever said that the technique was superior to the amp of the Kamehameha. ROSHI said that the technique was superior to the Kamehameha in itself.

You're saying a myriad of useless information

 

[RedReaper]

Everything you said is wrong and/or useless.

Max Power Roshi is his max power, via the body amping transformation that increases all his stats, which would increase your power level.
A power level is the level of your ki as you are. Amps not revealed wouldn't be measured in your power level. Which is why people can suppress their power levels.

The Kamehameha is never stated to have a set power increase. Ever.

Tien's physicals were equal to a old non full power Roshi, so spare me the bs.

And nobody ever said that the technique was superior to the amp of the Kamehameha. ROSHI said that the technique was superior to the Kamehameha in itself.

You're saying a myriad of useless information

Uhm, no.

As stated, Roshi has to use his muscles due to the TECHNIQUE'S power.

MAX Roshi is simply him demonstrating his full power.

Yes, suppressing and amplification does exist in Dragon Ball, but this isn't some arbitrary in verse scouter reading. These are the objective numbers listed in the Daizenshuu.

You literally just repeated what I said in new words. Your claim is he's comparing the Baseline Kamehameha to the Tri-Beam and saying the Technique itself is superior despite the power being used is lower than himself. This is another way of saying that the the Tri-Beams power amplification is superior to his own technique, but is not as powerful overall due to Tien being weaker. This is not supported by the characters, the power levels at play, or the very themes of the story.

Further, Roshi trained between arcs and was "more powerful than ever" in the 22nd Tenkaichi by "realizing he had further to go," via the experiences he made with his students. This is literally supported by the fact his PL jumps to 180 in the 22nd Tenkaichi. Guess what TIEN is equal to?

Huh. Seems oddly like there's a consistent set of statements, numbers, and hierarchy having been set to prepare us for the Daimao Piccolo Saga...strange...

 

[Damage3245]

Yes, suppressing and amplification does exist in Dragon Ball, but this isn't some arbitrary in verse scouter reading. These are the objective numbers listed in the Daizenshuu.

You literally just repeated what I said in new words. Your claim is he's comparing the Baseline Kamehameha to the Tri-Beam and saying the Technique itself is superior despite the power being used is lower than himself. This is another way of saying that the the Tri-Beams power amplification is superior to his own technique, but is not as powerful overall due to Tien being weaker. This is not supported by the characters, the power levels at play, or the very themes of the story.

Further, Roshi trained between arcs and was "more powerful than ever" in the 22nd Tenkaichi by "realizing he had further to go," via the experiences he made with his students. This is literally supported by the fact his PL jumps to 180 in the 22nd Tenkaichi. Guess what TIEN is equal to?

Tien is not compared to Roshi's maximum power though. Tien and Roshi were comparable when Roshi was holding himself back.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Everything you said is wrong and/or useless.

Max Power Roshi is his max power, via the body amping transformation that increases all his stats, which would increase your power level.
A power level is the level of your ki as you are. Amps not revealed wouldn't be measured in your power level. Which is why people can suppress their power levels.

The Kamehameha is never stated to have a set power increase. Ever.

Tien's physicals were equal to a old non full power Roshi, so spare me the bs.

And nobody ever said that the technique was superior to the amp of the Kamehameha. ROSHI said that the technique was superior to the Kamehameha in itself.

You're saying a myriad of useless information

So in what category is it superior? Also max power isn't the kaioken. The fact kaioken could boost stats was something new at that point. Max power was just roshi using his full ki and his body accomodating it. Also there is this image.

And this image states what exactly full power is which as we said is him using his whole ki.

 

[RedReaper]

Tien is not compared to Roshi's maximum power though. Tien and Roshi were comparable when Roshi was holding himself back.

Tien is compared to the MORE POWERFUL Roshi of the 22nd Tenkaichi. Moon Buster "MAX" Roshi was 21st Tenkaichi.

Said "MAX POWER" form exists solely to allow Roshi to use his full body, as his normal body cannot handle it. Stated literally in the link I gave.

It is NOT an amplifier. It is merely how Roshi can use his full power without hindering himself with his smaller body.

 

[Damage3245]

Tien is compared to the MORE POWERFUL Roshi of the 22nd Tenkaichi. Moon Buster "MAX" Roshi was 21st Tenkaichi.

Said "MAX POWER" form exists solely to allow Roshi to use his full body, as his normal body cannot handle it. Stated literally in the link I gave.

It is NOT an amplifier. It is merely how Roshi can use his full power without hindering himself with his smaller body.

And the more powerful version of Roshi in the 22nd Budokai isn't compared to the Max Power Roshi from the 21st Budokai either.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

As I said Piccolo had a power level of 260 at that time. Roshi says that nothing they can do can win against him so his full power level should be 180 at that time and 139 before. Not his base as it would not make sense.

 

[Therefir]

CloverDragon03 is making way more sense here, and I'm genuinely baffled by the use of AOE fallacy as an argument for the Tri-Beam scaling below the Full Power Kamehameha.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

CloverDragon03 is making way more sense here, and I'm genuinely baffled by the use of AOE fallacy as an argument for the Tri-Beam scaling below the Full Power Kamehameha.

So would you say Tien in that time is comparable to Roshi?

 

[Damage3245]

As I said Piccolo had a power level of 260 at that time. Roshi says that nothing they can do can win against him so his full power level should be 180 at that time and 139 before. Not his base as it would not make sense.

Like I said, we'll get into the King Piccolo stuff in another thread.

 

[Therefir]

So would you say Tien in that time is comparable to Roshi?

I think the Tri-Beam should be scaling above the 5-C Kamehameha, at the very least.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Like I said, we'll get into the King Piccolo stuff in another thread.

But...it's fully relevant here. The Roshi you are constantly saying noone scales to doesn't win against a power level of 260. Which means that his full power level is lower and thus should be the number noted in the daizenshuu...I mean that's the reason they even had the power level there. To show how powerful Roshi was at that time. The fact that Tien surpasses it pretty much shows that Roshi even at full power is below Tien. He himself said that he would lose had they continued fighting. And please don't say but MAX POWER because that's just Roshi's Ki.

 

[Damage3245]

But...it's fully relevant here. The Roshi you are constantly saying noone scales to doesn't win against a power level of 260. Which means that his full power level is lower and thus should be the number noted in the daizenshuu...I mean that's the reason they even had the power level there. To show how powerful Roshi was at that time. The fact that Tien surpasses it pretty much shows that Roshi even at full power is below Tien. He himself said that he would lose had they continued fighting. And please don't say but MAX POWER because that's just Roshi's Ki.

No, he doesn't say he would have definitely lost if they continued fighting. And losing in a tournament round does not exclusively mean being overpowered.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No, he doesn't say he would have definitely lost if they continued fighting. And losing in a tournament round does not exclusively mean being overpowered.

Oh my god. Are you gonna backtrack everytime an argument you have doesn't hold up? In what other way would he have lost? By round out? Are you suggesting that Roshi is referring to a ring out here? It's pretty clear that his power is slightly below Tien's.

 

[Damage3245]

Oh my god. Are you gonna backtrack everytime an argument you have doesn't hold up?

"Probably" - Master Roshi.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

He was putting less favor on himself winning which does tell me that he didn't exactly believe he had any chance. And I am not sure if he had even seen the Kikoho. The technigue which he states far surpasses the kamehameha as I posted above when you and king claimed nowhere does it state that it's more powerful.

 

[CloverDragon03]

"Probably" - Master Roshi.

Doesn't exactly bode well for him though

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah overall I'm even more convinced of my stance than before, seeing the arguments made while I was gone. Lots of AOE Fallacy on display and even attempted justifications for the use of fallacious reasoning

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Doesn't exactly bode well for him though

Nah he was totally sure of it. He obviously didn't want to hurt his feelings. Also Roshi was staying how they surpassed him and it wouldn't make sense not to take into account his Max Power form as I have already posted it's nothing special except him using his ki to the max....If anyone is stronger than him then he is stronger than all his ki.

 

[Chariot190]

To be fair.

The Tribeam is the prime example of AOE=/=AP. It's a localized **** you beam that effects, almost exclusively, what is in the POV of Tien's hand gesture, whether that be here, against Cell, or in Super.

Not saying I agree or disagree, but bringing up the attack's AOE ain't it.

 

[Damage3245]

To be fair.

The Tribeam is the prime example of AOE=/=AP. It's a localized **** you beam that effects, almost exclusively, what is in the POV of Tien's hand gesture, whether that be here, against Cell, or in Super.

Not saying I agree or disagree, but bringing up the attack's AOE ain't it.

Fair. That's not even my main objection to it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

"Localized **** you beam" is my new favorite quote of the day

 

[Jason_Courne]

I'm neutral with the removal of the current justifications, but they should still scale above Roshi's 21st Buddokai Max Power form regardless. Goku post-Korrin training was repeatedly stated to have surpassed Master Roshi
And by the 22nd Buddokai, Roshi felt surpassed by Goku's power (who at this point had been training in secret to beat Goku)

 

[RedReaper]

And the more powerful version of Roshi in the 22nd Budokai isn't compared to the Max Power Roshi from the 21st Budokai either.

False. Roshi comments he has trained to increase his power considerably so to as not lose to Goku, and when watching Goku fight freely admits Goku may be too much. Yamcha also comments that Roshi has improved and polished himself further. Mind you, fighters at this stage of the story can already deduce how much power you have whilst holding back. This seen with Goku, (who then claims the battle between them is uncertain, twice), Tien, and displayed multiple times in the thread, Roshi himself.

All of these fighters are aware that Roshi blew up the Moon, mind you, as RIGHT BEFORE his fight with Tien, there is a whole gag dedicated to HIM POINTING OUT/REMEMBERING HAVING BLOWN UP THE MOON. (Of which both Tien AND Goku watched). This is when he uses his Hypnosis to reverse Man-Wolf's Werewolf Form. And recall that in this fight, Roshi quits because Tien's power is SO ASTOUNDING (which he saw in a mere Kamehameha Wave), that it ASSURES TO HIM the next Generation is strong enough to defend the Earth.

It simply doesn't work. Roshi is Moon Level. Tien is explicitly comparable to a stronger Roshi. Then his technique outputs more power than a Kamehameha Wave at the cost of Life Force. Goku is also stated to have surpassed Roshi at this point as well, and they fight nearly evenly. Thus, Tien and Son Goku are Moon Level.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I'm neutral with the removal of the current justifications, but they should still scale above Roshi's 21st Buddokai Max Power form regardless. Goku post-Korrin training was repeatedly stated to have surpassed Master Roshi
And by the 22nd Buddokai, Roshi felt surpassed by Goku's power (who at this point had been training in secret to beat Goku)

Yeah these put even more nails in the coffin. Honestly at this point saying they don't easily scale above the max power kamehameha is straight up dishonest. Do whatever you want but yeah this is over. Especially Korin's quote is pretty clear cut. Roshi seeing just a display of his strenght admited he is curretly possible stronger than him but Korin outright declares it.

And I need to say it again because you will shout b b but max power Roshi. Max power Roshi is still Roshi...using all his power which he is taking into account when comparing himself to everyone.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm neutral with the removal of the current justifications, but they should still scale above Roshi's 21st Buddokai Max Power form regardless. Goku post-Korrin training was repeatedly stated to have surpassed Master Roshi
And by the 22nd Buddokai, Roshi felt surpassed by Goku's power (who at this point had been training in secret to beat Goku)

Damn, this makes things even clearer

 

[Damage3245]

The Roshi there that Goku is being said to surpass is a Building level. I can't believe I have to point that out.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Damn, this makes things even clearer

I think any arguments past this point aren't taking into account these nice statements.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

The Roshi there that Goku is being said to surpass is a Building level. I can't believe I have to point that out.

The Roshi here is the moon level one....Because that is Roshi's full power...which goku surpassed. Like that is straight up false.

 

[Damage3245]

The Roshi here is the moon level one....Because that is Roshi's full power...which goku surpassed.

I don't agree with that interpretation of the statements.

 

[RedReaper]

The Roshi there that Goku is being said to surpass is a Building level. I can't believe I have to point that out.

...
No.
The Baba Mini Tournament distinctly happens RIGHT BEFORE the 22nd Tenkaichi. What the Hell are YOU talking about?

 

[Damage3245]

...
No.
The Baba Mini Tournament distinctly happens RIGHT BEFORE the 22nd Tenkaichi. What the Hell are YOU talking about?

Okay then, Large Building level.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't agree with that interpretation of the statements.

Personally I find the interpretation of "Goku surpassed Roshi but not really" to hold significantly less weight

 

[RedReaper]

Okay then, Large Building level.

Okay.
Let me reiterate.
21st Tenkaichi Roshi is Moon Level.

The Baba Tournament happens after this.

Goku is deemed superior.

Roshi then trains for 3 years to not lose to Goku.

We then have the 22nd Tenkaichi.