2-A Nasuverse revision

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

This is gonna be pretty simple. I think that in light of recent contraversy the characters who are currently rated at 2-A should changed to At least High 3-A, Likely Low 2-C, Possibly 2-A. The recent events alone are enough evidence that the characters can be reasonably scaled lower, and the above range is a good way to balance the arguments. The Low 2-C feats are more prevelent, and one might even say consistent (although none of them qualify as anti-feats), than the ones that put characters at 2-A, and there is also the very real possibility that just hax scales to 2-A, instead of AP.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I agree

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I have a really bad feeling with the past few threads i been reading... A really bad feeling..

Although, I disagree. Its pretty well established the Mooncell has several infinite sized 4th dimensional relams within it, and one of those realms holds a multiverse. This would scale to BB at the very least, but one could make a good arguement that her stats shouldn't Should NOT scale to the Playables, or Kiara. Which in turn.. downscales a lot of other characters.

but becuase of a recent thread.. i don't think it really matters much on what we do, or how much evidence and consistency we show..

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Inb4 it's a mess

 

[BakiHanma18]

Gotta say, I agree with Upgrade. I've read a few of the previous threads, and the Mooncell definitely scales to BB, and Mooncell definitely holds several REAL multiverses, so I don't see the point

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

I'm gonna be honest, I'm not exactly knowledgeable on Fate but most of the people that I talk to that are knowledgeable on Fate do go back and forth between High 3-A, Low 2-C and 2-A so i honestly don't see the problem

So either one works for me

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

from what i been reading.. most of the issue is a not so well established scaling of characters some people believe Geotia isn't anything past Multi-continent /// planet level.. which i kinda thought would eventually become an issue...

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

I mean to be fair Goetia only wants to kill humanity...But if he wanted to kill the aliens too

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The incineration of humanity was just the power source. Destroying humanity wasn't his goal, it was just collateral damage in a higher goal. He was also going to end all possible futures, so that should probably be the more notable part of the feat

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I think those scans should be on his profile if they aren't already a part of it. the one that says He destroyed "All infinite possibilities of humanity" and then have the scan where it says "Think of these Parrallel worlds being other possibilities"

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Scaling problem comes from Grand Order and non-Fate works. CCC characters don't have any problem since they are directly connected to 2-A stuff. Leave CCC ones, downgrade the rest if downgrade is necessary.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

This isn't a downgrade tho

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Putting "possibly" doesn't really solve the problem. People will still treat those characters as 2-A. Source of the 2-A rating is the Moon Cell and BB, so CCC characters should stay at 2-A. People have a problem with Grand Order characters being 2-A, and those from non-Fate works.

So, you can either put them back at low 2-C or put "possibly" for those characters. Just the way Types are rated currently.

 

[Embracetophats]

I have a really bad feeling with the past few threads i been reading... A really bad feeling.. Although, I disagree. Its pretty well established the Mooncell has several infinite sized 4th dimensional relams within it, and one of those realms holds a multiverse. This would scale to BB at the very least, but one could make a good arguement that her stats shouldn't Should NOT scale to the Playables, or Kiara. Which in turn.. downscales a lot of other characters.
but becuase of a recent thread.. i don't think it really matters much on what we do, or how much evidence and consistency we show..

Pretty sure Kiara murderstomps BB. Every version of her seems to do it in-story anyway.


Mizukume from Beast Lair even made a post some time ago saying that in CCC, Gil acnowledges BB as someone that he can fight for a time, but not forever and that Kiara is on a different level compared to BB.


Gil also calls BB a Beast of calamity (with Advent Beast playing in the background), which is the rank that FGO Kiara is given, but FGO Kiara was still in a "larvae" state and was canonically much weaker than in CCC

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Meanwhile Kama is comparable or superior to Kiara, and some others scale from that, like Kingu being comparable to prime Gil which then scales to Tiamat. Goetia and Tiamat were stated to be comparable threats to humanity with Goetia focusing more on raw destruction

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The BB that Kiara absorbs, and Playables fight is past version BB. It's not "true" BB. Also, she was never fighting seriously. She was fighting off the Mooncell's mind manipulation while at the same time trying to hold back. She never wanted to kill the MC at the end of the game. That was the Mooncell which possessed BN temporaryly.

So there's a whole lot of missinging context from that fight people probably didn't think of.


5D mind manipulation hax

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Why is 2-A not definite exactly? Being controversial is not a reason to stealth downgrade a character or group of them.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm trying to downgrade, just trying to find a way to de-escalate things even if just a little

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

You and I both know that the people in question won't stop until 2-A as a whole is gone

 

[Paul_Frank]

Putting it at a possibly won't make things less controversial, hell there are still people who say servants can't be planet level so high 3-A is wank, no matter the rating there will always be people who have a problem with it

 

[Embracetophats]

The BB that Kiara absorbs, and Playables fight is past version BB. It's not "true" BB. Also, she was never fighting seriously. She was fighting off the Mooncell's mind manipulation while at the same time trying to hold back. She never wanted to kill the MC at the end of the game. That was the Mooncell which possessed BN temporaryly.
So there's a whole lot of missinging context from that fight people probably didn't think of.


5D mind manipulation hax

I am aware of the context. I was more so reiterating Beast Lair discussions

 

[Embracetophats]

Putting it at a possibly won't make things less controversial, hell there are still people who say servants can't be planet level so high 3-A is wank, no matter the rating there will always be people who have a problem with it

When Moriarty pulled a meteor to destroy the world at lightspeeds (yeah, roughly that. I looked up the month and year of the event and compared the distance between it and earth at that time and how long it took to reach shinjuku) and Demiya just blew that planetary threat up?


When the Chinese emperor can literally spawn a barrier larger than the earth?

When Arjuna and Karna make an increasingly expanding black hole?


At this point there are a lot of above planet feats for servants that it aint even worth going through them all

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yeah that's true but there are still people who will go "lol Da Vinci said they can't blow up the planet so they can't be planet level." Ignoring the context behind the statement and basically dismissing higher tier feats as "not literal"

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well there is the horribly misunderstood Layers/Textures. That is also a reason for a lot of conflict within the community.

 

[Embracetophats]

Yeah that's true but there are still people who will go "lol Da Vinci said they can't blow up the planet so they can't be planet level." Ignoring the context behind the statement and basically dismissing higher tier feats as "not literal"

I read all the relevant statements on the topic in the fan translation (havent checked out the official translation to see if something changed).


She never said NPs cant do that. She says they wont because of the failsaves.


Cant =/= wont.


Also, Chaldea took a full night to analyse Tiamat and even then their analysis was incomplete.

They had all of 2015 and 2016 to analyze the rings of light


Canonically they saw Ea for like 5 seconds, just enough for Gil to shoot Tiamat, an infinite 4D space

 

[Embracetophats]

Well there is the horribly misunderstood Layers/Textures. That is also a reason for a lot of conflict within the community.

Pretty sure Layers =/= Textures, unless you want to call the Reverse Side, Avalon and the Land of Shadows Textures

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Well overall point is, there is people that think they all exist in the same universe/membrane/world/Dimension without being separated, and exist under the crust, and the earth is basically hollow.

anyways... Why don't we stay on topic before an admin decides to close this for being too offtopic??

@Iapitus The Impaler I'm thinking the best way to de-escalate the tension the most is by everyone but BB, and the alter-egos, as "Possibly 2-A" The wonky scaling by making everyon and their mothers 2-A is what got under some (Not all) but some people's skin.. In order to change that "Possibely" rating on them, were going to need to bring scans with intense elaboration.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Fine, but Kazuradrop should get a possibly for her 2-A as well. Do you agree with the at least High 3-A, Likely Low 2-C in front of it?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I consider Foxtail, and the Original game of CCC their own stories. but yeah she should be Possibly 2-A.

Now as for at least high 3-A low 2-C. Tiamat can be considered low 2-C for existing across space-time, right? Is it possible to make Tiamat a starting point for the scaling chain of grand order?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

We can also try to scale them to Kama, as a fellow full beast

 

[Embracetophats]

Wasnt Kama also considered as being underdeveloped for a Beast?

 

[Embracetophats]

Tiamat should be higher, no?


She, as well as several other charaters, are at least 6D, since they can freely move through paralel worlds and timelines and can enter and exist in the imaginary numbers space

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Is kama higher than Tiamat?

Iirc doens't Kama have a lower end feat at 3-A? Tiamat has a solid low 2-c feat that shouldn't be capable of being disputed as she is stated to exist across space-time?? Although, it probably only applies to her true form/final form although im not sure on that.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

I'm actually quite iffy about the possibly 2-A Alter Egos.

The reason for Passionlip being 2-A are only being she has Authorities and being used by Kiara to ascend herself, which I don't think is enough.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Its kinda difficult to judge their statement as being truly destructive power, or hax to me. For example, Passionlip has the statment of having higher destructive power than BB but its due to Crush&Trash.

There is 3 alter egos that are like the 3 starter types to pokemon. They have a Weakeness/Strength Triangle. Kingprotea, Meltlilith, and Passionlip, and i know that Melt, and Lip have a couple of statements of being > BB before she absorbed the Mooncell because that was the only BB they know of.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

The other thing is... Pre-Mooncell BB is seen clashing with Gawain in a physical combat, but 1-shotted him with her hax.

So... maybe... Smurf Pre-Mooncell BB?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Depends. There is different layers to the Imaginary Number space each one being an infinite 4th dimensinal space. One of them holds the Multiverse, and BB had to take control over them layers before reaching the core.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

The Alter Egos got beaten up in their "heart" by your Servants who were not yet buffed

Passionlip's strikes have been blocked by your Servant a few times

And the aforementioned BB going toe to toe with Gawain until she brings her haxes out.

And last time I checked, fighting in the "Heart" is a real battle, Karna even sustained injury when fighting inside of it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Hence why I think a possibly would be good

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

I was just talking about the Alter Egos though.

Post-Mooncell BB looks solid 2-A, for fusing with the entire Mooncell.