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2-A Nasuverse revision

Just downgrade everyone to 3A or 2C if you really care about consistency in the story. Some of my favourite characters were also updated, but this is just going to be a mess in the future.

The lengths people go through to make it seem like the Moon Cell contains a multiverse doesn't even fit with what was stated in the Last Encore script that SE.RA.PH. represents a conceptual planet and the Moon Cell itself is supposed to represent a conceptual universe. Neither is it consistent with the rest of the series.

Boddhisattvas are beings of universal scale and power that can easily manage things on the level of a solar system.

The universe is Shakyamuni Buddha's domain.

When Kiara sends your servant away, she sends them across a conceptual universe. Not another universe.

Angra Mainyu/CCC has range that extends to the entire universe.

King Protea can grow without limits in the cyberworld and she is a universal scale disaster. Not multiversal.

Kama is a cosmic woman, she creates her own universe. Kiara does the same with Heaven's Hole.

Arjuna Alter's own feats don't scale that far off universal or universal+

Shiva's Third Eye can destroy the universe.

Even when Kiara and Tamamo talk about being able to easily destroy the sanzendaisenkai in their full power, it means all worlds including parallel worlds. The scale however is universal in Buddhism, NA FGO mistranslated that as multiversal.

We know this because the material book's entry on Angra Mainyu/CCC talks about the sanzendaisenkai/or the trichiliocosm in a universal scale: I Buddhism the universe in considered to be made up of three billion solar systems (a great trichiliocosm). A galaxy comprises of 3000 solar systems (a small trichiliocosm), and 1000 small trichiliocosms make up a trichiliocosm. This actually aligns with the real scale of galaxies, galaxy clusters, and super clusters. India had this stuff figured out over 2000 years ago? Holy crap!

- Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: All the World's Desire [Noble Phantasm], p.158-159

Suzuka Gozen's 3rd NP allows her to browse the trichiliocosm by using her sword. Her computation ability is on par with Moon Cell and she used it to help BB at the end of CCC collab.

Saver's Chakravartin was getting ready to prune all timelines, a.k.a. the sanzendaisensekai in Last Encore.

From Last Encore Glossary, it was said that the parallel worlds which Moon Cell's core - Angelica Cage observes are structured resembling a gigantic tree, and it was also under the Sacred Fig that a Savior attained Enlightenment.

The Human Order is a big tree that Fate Grand Order itself is a part of containing multiple parallel worlds like the one in Accel Zero, the Kara no Kyoukai collab, Apocrypha collab. This is the tree that Goetia burned, the effects were seen in both Accel Zero and Kara no Kyoukai.

Now we have the tree frozen instead by an Alien God in the lostbelt that is at least considered to be cosmic in scale. It's already stated to contain galaxies.

I'm pretty sure that it's clear by now that the maximum cap being universal or above is overwhelmingly consistent throughout the series. This is why Outer Gods are considered special because they are beyond cosmic. So just because the Moon Cell contains parallel worlds doesn't mean that it's multiversal in the scientific sense. Nasu has more religious and philosophical inspirations. He's thinking in terms of macrocosms and microcosms.
 
I don't get why throwing the word conceptual In front is supposed to change anything

Bodhisattva are gods of cosmic proportions not merely universal, considering the size of the world of buddhism. Being able to easily manage solar systems doesn't mean thats the limit to your power, if you were able to easily lift 20 pounds is that the limit of your power?

Having your domain be a universe doesn't mean you can't have more power, you could just lack the range to affect a multiverse or just you know, not have any need to.

Again I don't see what this is supposed to prove

It seems like alot of your examples so far have just people's range not being multiversal which, if you look at the files, is true for the most part.

Again, she lacks the range to affect a multiverse, quite simple. Being called a threat to X doesn't make you X tier or make X the limit of your power if you have higher scaling or feats

Yes they do create their own universes, I don't exactly see what this proves still.

Altjuna's own feats may not be high off of universal+ but if he scales to people above that then he gets a higher rating. Before the "he only reset the universe not the multiverse" 1. Range 2. That wasn't his goal or purpose and he couldn't really do much besides reset the universe he was in since he and his lostbelt weren't supposed to exist and only stood around because of the tree

Or perhaps it was meant to be taken as the parallel worlds and not just the Buddhist equivalent. If it is supposed to include parallel worlds it quite clearly is talking about the parallel worlds in Fate

The Material book to my knowledge doesn't actualky mention the sanzendaisenki, only the scale of the universe in buddhism

I don't see the point you are trying to make with the Suzuka thing

No it was getting ready to purge all timelines, all possibilites that the mooncell contained, not a single universe which wouldn't even make sense in context because it wouldn't take that much time to purge a single timeline compared to all of them at once

Don't know what you are trying to show with this

Or this

Yes the alien god is at least cosmic in scale, each of the galaxy trees which are born of seeds that are tiny parts of his power are strong enough to stop the culling of parallel worlds and contain galaxies inside of them

No it's pretty clear that the cap isn't actually universal. Most of the characters that "cap at universal" are stated to have power beyond that. In addition most of the issues you mentioned pertain to range not power. As in the character's don't have Multiversal range but they still have that power.
 
I'm at work but I just want to say


Foxtail CCC =/= Fate/Last Encore =/= Fate/Extra or Fate/Extra CCC


AndI'm pretty sure Fate/Extra doesn't really relate to CCC despite being prequel, sequels of each other, and Fate/Extella series follows both CCC, and extra continuing after their endings.

Edit: I would need to look it up when I get home, but I read Fate/Extra's true end connects to CCC.
 
Why do you suppose I'm trying to change anything with that word? You're being oddly pedantic. The one word you ought to pay attention is that it represents a universe. I only mentioned conceptual because that's what is actually written, which can easily be cross referenced with what Kiara said. You get sent across several light years of conceptual space, you come back through conceptual means. Something Nero, Gil, Tamamo and Emiya did. This generally helps understand a lot of feats in the Moon Cell, where it is stated many times that the information world takes precedence over the physical world, thereby making concepts absolute. It also helps you understand why King Protea's ability is limitless in the cyberworld (something she can't do in the physical world), which helps us collectively scale her and the Moon Cell to universal. Reminder that the Moon Cell itself has already been stated to be a conceptual universe, so this is just confirmation.

A Bodhisattva is a god of universe scale and power, and can easily manage things on the scale of the Solar System.

Bodhisattvas are outright defined as godlike beings of universal scale and power. I've stated the definition as it is, I don't know what you are attempting to correct here.

The entire universe is the domain of a Buddha.

This is pretty clearly just one universe. The interjections you've added are not found here.

But I don't want to be mean. We can consider any idea you have that this doesn't fully represent their power, that's fine. It's frankly nothing more than special pleading, but I accepted that caveat when I said the general cap could be around universal or universal+. You could even consider them multiversal if you like but it's not in the sense that people are discussing here. People generally don't have that big of a problem with 2C. However, we have characters here raised to Multiversal+. You're really gonna need a bigger leg to stand on if you want to prove that a single trichiliocosm scales to infinite numbers of other trichiliocosm.

King Protea has no feats of that level. She is a universal threat in the Moon Cell; a conceptual universe where her conceptual ability to grow indefinitely shines the most. Therefore she grows as big as the cyberworld allows it.

How does he scale higher when the people he scales to aren't even that high compared to himself? You seem to be misunderstanding something, I'm not saying only Arjuna Alter is around 3A - 2C, but the rest of top tiers in the nasuverse are currently all the same. If you mean he is inferior to Beasts or other powerful existences, fine. But that's only speculation as we don't have a clear point of comparison. In terms of powerlevels, he is one of the few with the best feats. Conceptually he might not be the best, but that's another discussion about haxes.

You do realize that the concept of a world has been explored in the nasuverse right? If not, I suggest reading Camelot. Or that the sanzendaisenkai/or trichiliocosm has been explicitly defined in the data books? I posted that for everyone to see for themselves.

They are synonyms. Trichiliocosm (õ©ëÕìâÕñºÕìâõ©ûþòî, Sanzendaisensekai) is Suzaka's Noble Phantasm. Its name is a reference to the Buddhist universe itself that can translate to a billion worlds, parallel worlds but it undeniable remains universal. Even in Buddhism, even in Fate. In terms of computational ability of her sword, it scales to multiple parallel worlds and yes, the Moon Cell as well. That is why I mentioned her. Moon Cell observing parallel timelines is the same, it's universal.

Again, why are you contradicting me? That's exactly what I said, it was going to prune all timelines.

The last bit was a little bonus to show how there is a consistency in Fate Cosmology across the Nasuverse, in both the Mooncell and Earth. It's to show Moon Cell is not an outlier despite being a cyberworld in case anyone had that idea. You see, this is something far more inteesting to me than powerlevels. But if that was irrelevant and uninteresting to others, then alright.

What characters would those be? I don't really think there's anyone Multiversal yet. BB's dimensional feat led the Japanese fandom to have a heated dicussion about whether it would allow her and Tamamo to cut through Avalon, but it came to a standstill after it was decided there wasn't really too many materials to work with. Generally almost nobody agrees it makes her multiversal, especially not the moonruners. The Outer Gods may be but that is speculative. Golden Face might end up getting wanked above beasts, whatever, we'll talk about her when she demonstrates said feats.

This further cements what I said about the lengths people go through to make it seem that the Moon Cell is multiversal or many times multiversal. A vast portion of your reply was just explaining away what I said with no statements to suggest otherwise. Arguing for the sake of arguing. It leads me to believe that most people here don't care about story consistency in favour of higher powerlevels for X character. No offense though, it's just my opinion.
 
TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
I'm at work but I just want to say


Foxtail CCC =/= Fate/Last Encore =/= Fate/Extra or Fate/Extra CCC


AndI'm pretty sure Fate/Extra doesn't really relate to CCC despite being prequel, sequels of each other, and Fate/Extella series follows both CCC, and extra continuing after their endings.
Click to expand...
This is exactly why the last bits of my reply was addressing that the cosmology in fate is not that different regardless of the different routes, timelines, etc.

Also where's the evidence that the cosmology and lore for all three are different? From what I remember, the statements of Last Encore like Chakravartin being able to destroy parallel worlds seemed to be perfectly fine when people were trying to make the point that multiverses are mentioned so many times that the previously considered outlier feats shouldn't be considered outlier anymore.
 
Though it's really annoying, i can understand the situation. On the other hand 2-A tier is already amazing, but some people feel that 2-C was already good enough and 2-A is kinda over the top (including me actuallly, but eh i will just go along with it). Staying on 2-A is a pain, while downgrading seems also to be a pain.
Illust 74163566 20190512 081344
MeltHeh
 
As I said, it doesn't have to be changed if people don't care about story consistency. Just that it might end up being a mess later.
 
Be a bit reasonable guys. No need to get things heated up just because each of you have different opinion about the ratings of these characters
 
Nah, thanks I able to comment on whatever I please aside from staff discussion threads as is any user. How you feel personally is none of my concerns especially whenever your getting emotional over a debate over fictional characters.
 
Indeed. The only problem here is that your comments don't actually add anything valuable to the discussion and are seen more like "adding fuel to a fire". So, do you have anything valuable to say regarding 2-A Nasuverse?
 
I would prefer story consistency too and would just be fine if downgraded to 2 C. But when i read the threads about the upgrades, sheeesh it was quite solid argument for the upgrade ( i guess? I didnt really follow). But the problem is if we are going for story consistency, we would have reviewed every Nasu characters. Tbh it might be a mess anyway one way or another.

Just saying, the reason we have 2Cs to 2As right now is the latest blatant show of Kama then Arjuna Alter that clearly has universal powers (though universal shizzu was already shown since Extra, eh. Also, no blaming to Kama chan). I won't get mad if you guys going for it, in fact maybe i would be glad about it. But if not too, then i would not be mad either.
 
@hun

I can't go through and reply to your whole comment right now so what I'll say is this

The examples you are trying to use to say universal is the limit of their power are all related to range not ap. A character can have multiversal ap via scaling but be unable to destroy it all at once due to lacking range

I never cared too much for 2-A either way, the only reason I supported the upgrade is because it was more accurate given the feats we had, I much preferred them at low 2-C because they could have good matches there
 
Paul Frank
I never cared too much for 2-A either way, the only reason I supported the upgrade is because it was more accurate given the feats we had, I much preferred them at low 2-C because they could have good matches there </div>

Honestly same. I would of preferred they kept their original AP and just had 2-A hax
 
I've given multiple examples showing range, attack power and conceptual abilities though. There's no need to reply tbh. You can talk it up with Mizukume on reddit, he can explain it far better than I can since he's extensively researched all of fate, Buddhism, etc. It doesn't seem like Nasu even defines universe in the Western viewpoint and thinks more in terms of Eastern philosophy.
 
I say stay sadly the arguments against it from what I can see are mostly based on the range of certain things and using that to say that the ap obtained from scaling is wrong because they haven't been shown affecting things at a 2-A range
 
I agree with the downgrade.

One day we will also get rid ofuniverse+ because it's bad, but at least we aren't being a laughing stock
 
Diinou HotHead said:
Like Iapitus said, there are more Low 2-C feats than 2-A ones, but none are antifeats
Click to expand...
^this

The 2-A feats are legit and none of the low 2-C feats show that 2-A is incorrect, because as I've said, most of it is just a range issue.
 
Like talking with somebody with Madness Enhancement EX, huh?

But making infinite possibilities that the Quantum Time Lock, a timeline pruning mechanism, bothers interfering with, should help judge how "real" it is.
 
Hun Tiandi said:
I've given multiple examples showing range, attack power and conceptual abilities though. There's no need to reply tbh. You can talk it up with Mizukume on reddit, he can explain it far better than I can since he's extensively researched all of fate, Buddhism, etc. It doesn't seem like Nasu even defines universe in the Western viewpoint and thinks more in terms of Eastern philosophy.
Click to expand...
On this part yeah, he even said it here

An RM has an indefinite size, true, but I wouldn't call it an outright universe in the normal sense of the word

Yes, that is if you go by the western definition. But Nasu is Asian, and his cosmology and philosophy are influenced a lot by Asian viewpoints. Õ«çÕ«Ö (uchuu, the universe) in the Western viewpoint is the space where our planet is. But in Eastern philosophy, the term's usage is to refer to "the infinite space and time". In that regard, any "space without limit" is an uchuu, regardless of its scale compare to the physical universe in the science sense of the word. That's why a sekai is an uchuu and that's why the space within Solomon's RM or Kiara are uchuus.

universal Shirou
 
I DID IT!!!! I think i finally found enouch conclusive evidence (as if there wasn't enough already :( to succufully prove a multiverse exist within the Mooncell, AND POSSIBELY MULTIPLE maybe though!!!I just need time to type a response!!! I might get around to doing that sometime between a few hours from now to possibley very late friday chicago time.

Anyone remember when we first learn about the Zero Dark zone of the Mooncell? I need EVERY SCAN/TIMEFRAME OF A YOUTBE VIDEO for it please if you can help me find it.. Thank you..
 
Can somebody experienced provide a good TL;DR summary of the arguments for and against 2-A?
 
I'll let someone for 2-A provide their own summary.

TL;DR for the arguments against 2-A are:

1. Most of the statements and feats in the nasuverse put the top-tiers around 3A - 2C. This is found to be overwhelmingly consistent.

2. A decent majority of the previous arguments used for the upgrade were universal and not multiversal. Even when it talks about all parallel worlds, it usually references the Buddhist concept of trichiliocosm which scales to a universe.

3. The Moon Cell itself is no exception. It has been stated to represent a conceptual universe and that is confimed many times.

4. Many of these "worlds" are more that likely just Reality Marbles that were explained as Layers in Camelot. As Nasu tends to use the words cosmos (uchuu) and world (sekai) interchangeably, which they are in Japanese.

5. Those "infinite" timelines are not infinite at all and the reason was explained in Extella: Quantum Timelock. The phrase mugen (infinite) is used a lot by Nasu but mostly it's not literally infinite.
 
Arguments for 2-A:

- The Mooncell observes, and simulates the possibilies it observed, which there are several statements of them being infinite

- The Quantum Time Lock, a system that eliminates unnecessary timelines, also eliminates unnecessary possibilities in the Mooncell

- There are also statements of possibilities being actual timelines

- Saver's Noble Phantasm, Chakravatin, controlled the Mooncell, and has it end all possibilities it stored, and the statement during the scene it's being carried out, it was also referred as parallel worlds

Arguments against:

- The Mooncell only simulates the possibilities (the possibilities stored in the Mooncell are not real universes, just simulations)

- There are more Low 2-C feats than 2-A feats
 
The simulation argument doesn't work no matter how you look at it. Either the simulations are real enough to actually die in, meaning that they may as well be real for all it matters, or the Moon Cell is affecting stuff outside of it, meaning that it's still doing the 2-A thing.
 
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