Tsunade would have left Snake man hanging

[Damage3245]

Given that it's possible she isn't able to spiritually heal (plus having evidence of her limits in healing being below spiritual levels and Orochimaru not being 100% infallible in his knowledge of Tsunade's capabilities), "why is this not at most Possibly"?

She literally doesn't perform the feat, it's not actually proven that she can, we know she has limits, and Orochimaru is literally shown to be wrong about his knowledge of her capabilities. The ability should be Possibly at best.

I'm convinced by this.

 

[Trihexa102]

> Did Tsunade perform the Spiritual Healing feat?

No.

> Why does Tsunade have the Spiritual Healing ability then?

A knowledgeable character (Orochimaru) "believed" they could spiritually heal his arms.

> Are we given proof that she can?

No

> Is there a possible chance Orochimaru can be wrong?

There is a possibility he could be wrong.

> What is the reason that he could possibly be wrong?

1) Tsunade never proves she can spiritually heal anyone nor anything, we don't have direct evidence that she can.

2) We have proof that Tsunade can't heal the Chakra Network which does connect to Spiritual Energy.

3) Orochimaru was actually shocked to see Tsunade developed a new medical Ninjutsu and he hadn't seen her in years. This is evidence he is not a fully reliable source on Tsunade's capabilities.


I don't think I gotta spell it out for you guys. We don't actually have undeniable proof that Tsunade is capable of spiritual healing and Orochimaru hadn't seen Tsunade in years at this point in the series. His entire basis for wanting to see Tsunade is due to the fact that she is the best medical Ninja in the entire world. She is his only hope regardless, so he would obviously go to her.

Given that it's possible she isn't able to spiritually heal (plus having evidence of her limits in healing being below spiritual levels and Orochimaru not being 100% infallible in his knowledge of Tsunade's capabilities), "why is this not at most Possibly"?

She literally doesn't perform the feat, it's not actually proven that she can, we know she has limits, and Orochimaru is literally shown to be wrong about his knowledge of her capabilities. The ability should be Possibly at best.

Like I said to the Op already you cant make that assumption when the character in question , believes she can , and he is generally knowledgeable regarding souls since he's dabbled in edo tensei, cursed seals , body hopping, even adept knowledge of the dead demon consuming seal, and even Totsuka blade , his attendant another medical adept who is considered among the best kabuto, shizune , jiraiya and Tsunade herself believes she can heal him, Orochimaru is so sure he Literally states once tsunade has healed his hands completely, he would continue his destruction of the leaf.( this is as blatant as a statement can go, to ignore it without any factual evidence to prove otherwise while trying to slap a POSSIBLY is contrived.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

when the character in question , believes she can

Everything else you said does not matter. This line by you does not matter.

Orochimaru is proven to be unreliable in regards to Tsunade's capabilities immediately once he is unaware of one of her medical Ninjutsu.

This automatically makes him not 100% reliable in regards to her abilities; therefore, he is an unreliable source that could possibly be wrong.

If there is not a 100% certain case of his accuracy, then the ability can not be anymore than Possibly.

Orochimaru is not 100% certain as he shows gaps in his knowledge of Tsunade.

Stop huffing the copium.

 

[Golden_Void]

>

Sound logic, we should upscale Itachi to possibly being stronger than Hashirama via statements now

But on a serious note, chakra is tied directly to the soul. Obito's chakra was also / contained his spirit which amped Kakashi. When Minato got his arms Anakin Skywalker'd by Madara/Obito, his soul had no arms. Orochimaru's arms were spiritually taken meaning the chakra flow of those arms disappeared as well, but wouldn't this imply that Tsunade would essentially have to recreate the entire chakra network in his arms?

 

[Trihexa102]

Everything else you said does not matter. This line by you does not matter.

Orochimaru is proven to be unreliable in regards to Tsunade's capabilities immediately once he is unaware of one of her medical Ninjutsu.

This automatically makes him not 100% reliable in regards to her abilities; therefore, he is an unreliable source that could possibly be wrong.

If there is not a 100% certain case of his accuracy, then the ability can not be anymore than Possibly.

Orochimaru is not 100% certain as he shows gaps in his knowledge of Tsunade.

Stop huffing the copium.

you are literally making up your own assumptions when Orochimaru himself believes she can , him not knowing about the new medical techniques make sense though , he left the village a long time ago why would he know , its not like she would be stagnant and doesn't improve, he believed her previous skill level was able to when he still knew her when he was in the leaf before he went rogue, this is a new ability she herself told orochimaru she mastered when she left the village, yea Possibly makes a lot of sense if its not 100% accurate , but from the context of this it clearly shows he at least believes she is able to do it ,which your basically saying we shouldn't take any knowledgeable chars statement at face value for other verses too. There is no huffing bruh its just your bias and conjecture.

 

[Godernet]

> Did Tsunade perform the Spiritual Healing feat?

No.

> Why does Tsunade have the Spiritual Healing ability then?

A knowledgeable character (Orochimaru) "believed" they could spiritually heal his arms.

> Are we given proof that she can?

No

> Is there a possible chance Orochimaru can be wrong?

There is a possibility he could be wrong.

My only issue with this is that Orochimaru never questions whether or not she could do it neither does Kabuto or Shizune they both make it seem as if this is something that she could do with absolute certainty.

> What is the reason that he could possibly be wrong?

1) Tsunade never proves she can spiritually heal anyone nor anything, we don't have direct evidence that she can.

2) We have proof that Tsunade can't heal the Chakra Network which does connect to Spiritual Energy.

3) Orochimaru was actually shocked to see Tsunade developed a new medical Ninjutsu and he hadn't seen her in years. This is evidence he is not a fully reliable source on Tsunade's capabilities.

Realistically it shouldn't matter that Orochimaru doesn't have knowledge of Tsunade's current capabilities when he is judging her ability to heal him based on what he already knows about her. kind of a moot point.

I don't think I gotta spell it out for you guys. We don't actually have undeniable proof that Tsunade is capable of spiritual healing and Orochimaru hadn't seen Tsunade in years at this point in the series. His entire basis for wanting to see Tsunade is due to the fact that she is the best medical Ninja in the entire world. She is his only hope regardless, so he would obviously go to her.

Given that it's possible she isn't able to spiritually heal (plus having evidence of her limits in healing being below spiritual levels and Orochimaru not being 100% infallible in his knowledge of Tsunade's capabilities), "why is this not at most Possibly"?

She literally doesn't perform the feat, it's not actually proven that she can, we know she has limits, and Orochimaru is literally shown to be wrong about his knowledge of her capabilities. The ability should be Possibly at best.

And if we were only taking Orochimaru's word for it I would agree with you that he could be wrong. But Shizune and Tsunade herself never doubt her ability to heal his arms either even after they were given a general idea of what was wrong with his arms. In fact, the way they talk about it sounds like it would be a simple task for her.

Not to mention in Tsunade's entire character arc here it was never even a question about whether or not she could, but if it was the right thing to do, should she heal the arms of someone that killed her old teacher and is actively seeking to harm the village she grew up in just because she'd have a chance to reclaim what she lost in Dan and her Brother? When she chose not to she showed she had what it meant to carry on Hiruzen's Will of Fire and become the Fifth Hokage.

Her not being able to heal him would make the entire arc meaningless.

Considering the unanimous confidence these characters have for Tsunade's capabilities on top of the emphasis Kishimoto establishes on what her choice will be, and not if she can do it or not. I don't see a reason for a possibly rating.

If the Manga is having credible characters tell us something with no contradictions in the actual story, and that something is an important plot device for an arc, there's no reason we should be disregarding it.

"But she didn't end up doing it tho", is not a strong argument against statements in the manga from credible sources.

And why would we treat this like it's only a possibility when all of the characters involved speak of this with confidence including Tsunade?

 

[KingogKings777]

I'm convinced by this.

Nice, you got any other mods that might be interested in this so I can message leave a message on their walls?

 

[Tdjwo]

So majority are in disagreement right? Shouldn't this thread be closed already?

 

[Damage3245]

So majority are in disagreement right? Shouldn't this thread be closed already?

I'm fine with the spiritual part being changed to a Possibly based in IMade's post.

 

[theultimate5105]

Everything else you said does not matter. This line by you does not matter.

Orochimaru is proven to be unreliable in regards to Tsunade's capabilities immediately once he is unaware of one of her medical Ninjutsu.

That is one of her new jutsu that she developed
That does not mean he doesn’t know how good a healer she is when he was still on her team

This automatically makes him not 100% reliable in regards to her abilities; therefore, he is an unreliable source that could possibly be wrong.

If there is not a 100% certain case of his accuracy, then the ability can not be anymore than Possibly.

Orochimaru is not 100% certain as he shows gaps in his knowledge of Tsunade.

Stop huffing the copium.

Knowing she can do something is different from not knowing she can do something
Not knowing about one of her jutsu does not mean that he is wrong about one of her capabilities, especially when Tsunade, Jiraiya and Kabuto all believed she could heal his arms

 

[Trihexa102]

I'm fine with the spiritual part being changed to a Possibly based in IMade's post.

What you are basically saying is we shouldn't take any knowledgeable characters statements at face value when it was confirmed by multiple characters , statements>conjecture unless proven otherwise with facts and evidence, so there is no reason for it to be a Possibly especially when most are in disagreement.

 

[Damage3245]

What you are basically saying is we shouldn't take any knowledgeable characters statements at face value when it was confirmed by multiple characters , statements>conjecture unless proven otherwise with facts and evidence, so there is no reason for it to be a Possibly especially when most are in disagreement.

Well, statements by themselves aren't always absolutely ironclad evidence.

 

[Golden_Void]

Sound logic, we should upscale Itachi to possibly being stronger than Hashirama via statements now

But on a serious note, chakra is tied directly to the soul. Obito's chakra was also / contained his spirit which amped Kakashi. When Minato got his arms Anakin Skywalker'd by Madara/Obito, his soul had no arms. Orochimaru's arms were spiritually taken meaning the chakra flow of those arms disappeared as well, but wouldn't this imply that Tsunade would essentially have to recreate the entire chakra network in his arms?

I think this is important to address

 

[KingogKings777]

I think this is important to address

Yes, she would have to remake the soul part. Since as shown in post 63 it didn't matter how many times he's died or revived it still affected him till he got the arms out of the reaper seal.

She has fixed mental injuries(Kakashi) and physical(herself).

 

[Golden_Void]

Yes, she would have to remake the soul part. Since as shown in post 63 it didn't matter how many times he's died or revived it still affected him till he got the arms out of the reaper seal.

She has fixed mental injuries(Kakashi) and physical(herself).

Wouldn't that be a creation feat at that point, not healing?

 

[Godernet]

I think this is important to address

This just seems like more evidence to the chakra network being a microscopic but tangible part of their bodies more akin to a nervous system(which they even compare the Chakra network to in the manga) rather than just an intangible network of chakra.

Meaning the network would still exist within Orochimaru despite him losing that part of his soul but without any chakra in them due to losing the soul in his arms.

 

[KingogKings777]

Wouldn't that be a creation feat at that point, not healing?

It's listed under healing. But yeah if you wanted you could argue creation.

 

[Godernet]

Well, statements by themselves aren't always absolutely ironclad evidence.

They should when the characters are credible and the ability is an important plot device for the arc that's never contradicted by the story.

Especially when the only argument against it is skepticism at best.

 

[Golden_Void]

This just seems like more evidence to the chakra network being a microscopic but tangible part of their bodies more akin to a nervous system(which they even compare the Chakra network to in the manga) rather than just an intangible network of chakra. Meaning the network could still exist within Orochimaru despite him losing that part of his soul but without any chakra in them due to losing the soul in his arms.

Hmmm, well chakra is physical + mental/spiritual, so without one half of the equation the whole thing doesn't work. I think Tsunade would have to recreate part of a soul? Which is a different thing from healing entirely. The necrosis in his arms from them essentially being dead could work, but idk if that's established in-verse.

 

[Stryker861]

Kishi treated these set of events as if it were a question of Would she heal his arms, not Could.

 

[Nierre]

Whew, Godernet that was a crisp rebuttal. You have my agreeance FRA.

 

[Godernet]

Hmmm, well chakra is physical + mental/spiritual, so without one half of the equation the whole thing doesn't work.
I think Tsunade would have to recreate part of a soul? Which is a different thing from healing entirely. The necrosis in his arms from them essentially being dead could work, but idk if that's established in-verse.

I mean when Orochimaru initially lost his arms they became completely unusable and caused him extreme pain so necrosis for Orochimaru in that body could make sense.

 

[Golden_Void]

I mean when Orochimaru initially lost his arms they became completely unusable and caused him extreme pain so necrosis for Orochimaru in that body could make sense.

Maybe this means she can reverse or at least stop necrosis. I don't think Tsunade can repair souls. That might be a rinnegan ability via the Naraka path.

 

[Godernet]

Maybe this means she can reverse or at least stop necrosis. I don't think Tsunade can repair souls. That might be a rinnegan ability via the Naraka path.

That's only in the body he originally got hit his arms taken with though. When he got a new body after Tsunade refused to heal him, his arms worked freely but he still couldn't use jutsu until he retrieved the rest of his soul from the Reaper Death Seal.

 

[KingogKings777]

Hmmm, well chakra is physical + mental/spiritual, so without one half of the equation the whole thing doesn't work. I think Tsunade would have to recreate part of a soul? Which is a different thing from healing entirely. The necrosis in his arms from them essentially being dead could work, but idk if that's established in-verse.

I have no doubt she could have healed the Necrosis. More the soul part which is the issue for me.

 

[Godernet]

I have no doubt she could have healed the Necrosis. More the soul part which is the issue for me.

Do you have any proof that she couldn't heal the souls? or anything that gives us reason to doubt she could that doesn't revolve around the chakra network? which again doesn't matter when trying to confirm Tsunade's spiritual healing.

 

[KingogKings777]

do you have any proof that she couldn't heal the souls? or anything that gives us reason to doubt she could that doesn't revolve around the chakra network? which again doesn't matter when trying to confirm Tsunade's spiritual healing.

So not being able to heal CN which is just chakra which is physical + mental/spiritual = being able to heal the soul now? Damn.

 

[Godernet]

So not being able to heal CN which is just chakra which is physical + mental/spiritual = being able to heal the soul now? Damn.

Healing a soul is not the same as repairing a microscopic and potentially tangible network of chakra as complex as the nervous system from damage at a cellular level. Stop trying to equate the two.

 

[Stryker861]

So not being able to heal CN which is just chakra which is physical + mental/spiritual = being able to heal the soul now? Damn.

We shouldent be acting like her being able to heal his soul has anything to do with healing his chakra network. A doctor can be able to perform a specific type of operation without needing to learn 10 other type's.
Maybe i misunderstood what u were saying but this is what its sounding like

 

[KingogKings777]

Healing a soul is not the same as repairing a microscopic and potentially tangible network of chakra as complex as the nervous system from damage at a cellular level. Stop trying to equate the two.

Wait the energy lines are now tangible when did that happen?

 

[Godernet]

Wait the energy lines are now tangible when did that happen?

It's a pathway system connected to all of their organs distributing chakra throughout the body, it's constantly compared to other organs in the body and has been explained to be possible to touch for people with visual prowess acute enough to actually see it.

And even if it wasn't tangible repairing it is not the same thing as repairing a damaged soul.

The series literally tells you it's not the same thing. Tsunade and the others say she can repair the soul damage confidently and then later on she explains that she can't repair a chakra network from damage on a cellular level, logically that should mean to us readers that one is harder than the other.

Why would your 3rd party viewing skepticisms matter more than the word of mouth of the best Medical Ninja in the series, two other highly accredited Medical Ninjas (Shizune and Kabuto), and Orochimaru, one of the most knowledgeable people in the series on ninjutsu who himself has the ability to use the same Reaper Death Seal that crippled him and perfected other soul-based techniques like Edo Tensei?

 

[Stryker861]

It's a pathway system connected to all of their organs distributing chakra throughout the body, it's constantly compared to other organs in the body and has been explained to be possible to touch for people with visual prowess acute enough to actually see it.

And even if it wasn't tangible repairing it is not the same thing as repairing a damaged soul.

The series literally tells you it's not the same thing. Tsunade and the others say she can repair the soul damage confidently and then later on she explains that she can't repair a chakra network from damage on a cellular level, logically that should mean to us viewers that one is harder than the other.

Why would your 3rd party viewing skepticisms matter more than the word of mouth of the best Medical Ninja in the series, two other highly accredited Medical Ninjas (Shizune and Kabuto), and Orochimaru, one of the most knowledgeable people in the series on ninjutsu who himself has the ability to use the same Reaper Death Seal that crippled him and perfected other soul-based techniques like Edo Tensei?

This

 

[KingogKings777]

It's a pathway system connected to all of their organs distributing chakra throughout the body, it's constantly compared to other organs in the body and has been

This doesn't change anything about it being a line of energy which is stated as fact. Sorry that it bothers you.

explained to be possible to touch for people with visual prowess acute enough to actually see it.

More like they sending chakra into their opponents and knowing where to send it.

And even if it wasn't tangible repairing it is not the same thing as repairing a damaged soul.

So she can't heal stuff if spiritual stuff but she can heal spiritual stuff?

The series literally tells you it's not the same thing. Tsunade and the others say she can repair the soul damage confidently and then later on she explains that she can't repair a chakra network from damage on a cellular level, logically that should mean to us readers that one is harder than the other.

Already explained this in a previous post.

Why would your 3rd party viewing skepticisms matter more than the word of mouth of the best Medical Ninja in the series, two other highly accredited Medical Ninjas (Shizune and Kabuto), and Orochimaru, one of the most knowledgeable people in the series on ninjutsu who himself has the ability to use the same Reaper Death Seal that crippled him and perfected other soul-based techniques like Edo Tensei?

Refer to IMADEs post for this.

 

[Godernet]

This doesn't change anything about it being a line of energy which is stated as fact. Sorry that it bothers you.

More like they sending chakra into their opponents and knowing where to send it.

So she can't heal stuff if spiritual stuff but she can heal spiritual stuff?

Already explained this in a previous post.

Refer to IMADEs post for this.

I’ll address this when I get home but Ive already addressed my issues with IMADE’s post.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

My only issue with this is that Orochimaru never questions whether or not she could do it neither does Kabuto or Shizune they both make it seem as if this is something that she could do with absolute certainty.

This is not proof, do you understand this? Tsunade does not prove their confidence nor do they state "Yes, Tsunade can heal souls".

You are arguing off of assumptions and character confidence, not actual evidence.

These aren't even direct character statements that state without plausible deniability that Tsunade is capable of healing souls.

Realistically it shouldn't matter that Orochimaru doesn't have knowledge of Tsunade's current capabilities when he is judging her ability to heal him based on what he already knows about her. kind of a moot point.

This is not the case, Orochimaru is not judging her off her current capabilities. Orochimaru is choosing Tsunade to heal him solely because Tsunade is the greatest hearler in the world.

Orochimaru knows Tsunade personally, he knows she's the best healer in the world, and he knows he can potentially bribe her to help him. Therefore, if Tsunade can't do it then he has no chance, she's his best option not that she can actually do it because Orochimaru proves he doesn't know her full capabilities. Thus, he is not a credible source as he is proven to be not fully knowledgeable.

Her not being able to heal him would make the entire arc meaningless.

No? It didn't matter if Tsunade could or couldn't heal Orochimaru. The point of the arc is whether or not Tsunade would help or hurt Konoha, not if she can actually heal Orochimaru.

In fact, Tsunade was never going to heal Orochimaru so it once again did not matter if she could or couldn't.

Your entire argument literally depends on the possibility that Tsunade can actually heal souls.

You do not have undeniable evidence that Tsunade can heal souls.

There does not exists a single feat of Tsunade healing souls.

Therefore, it's at best Possible that Tsunade can heal souls since your entire argument is based on character's beliefs in Tsunade. Which is already shaky evidence since it's entirely character conjecture with no support and we are shown that one of them (Orochimaru) is not fully knowledgeable about Tsunade.

 

[Trihexa102]

This is not proof, do you understand this? Tsunade does not prove their confidence nor do they state "Yes, Tsunade can heal souls".

You are arguing off of assumptions and character confidence, not actual evidence.

These aren't even direct character statements that state without plausible deniability that Tsunade is capable of healing souls.

This is not the case, Orochimaru is not judging her off her current capabilities. Orochimaru is choosing Tsunade to heal him solely because Tsunade is the greatest hearler in the world.

Orochimaru knows Tsunade personally, he knows she's the best healer in the world, and he knows he can potentially bribe her to help him. Therefore, if Tsunade can't do it then he has no chance, she's his best option not that she can actually do it because Orochimaru proves he doesn't know her full capabilities. Thus, he is not a credible source as he is proven to be not fully knowledgeable.


No? It didn't matter if Tsunade could or couldn't heal Orochimaru. The point of the arc is whether or not Tsunade would help or hurt Konoha, not if she can actually heal Orochimaru.

In fact, Tsunade was never going to heal Orochimaru so it once again did not matter if she could or couldn't.

Your entire argument literally depends on the possibility that Tsunade can actually heal souls.

You do not have undeniable evidence that Tsunade can heal souls.

There does not exists a single feat of Tsunade healing souls.

Therefore, it's at best Possible that Tsunade can heal souls since your entire argument is based on character's beliefs in Tsunade. Which is already shaky evidence since it's entirely character conjecture with no support and we are shown that one of them (Orochimaru) is not fully knowledgeable about Tsunade.

Refer to the post I made why it's reasonable that he isn't knowledgeable about her full capabilities, which further explains just how sure and confident he was she "would" heal him not "could", based on the entire context of the Arc.

 

[KingogKings777]

Bump.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Damage is the only staff that has been here, he agrees with removing it. I think you should just get more staff in here.

 

[KingogKings777]

Damage is the only staff that has been here, he agrees with removing it. I think you should just get more staff in here.

Other than Shadowbonko who else do you think would be interested/knowledgeable?
Left a message on a couple of walls.

 

[KingogKings777]

Orochimaru is one of the most knowledge characters in the series regarding jutsu, thats literally his thing. he also specializes in jutsu that involves your soul hopping bodies. why would he even remotely consider Tsunade viable if she couldn't heal his arms.

and yes Orochimaru has intimate knoweldge of how the reaper death seal works, which is why later on when theres nobody in the leaf, he is capable of reversing the effects by cutting open the demons stomach and freeing the hokage that were trapped in there.

Any update on your opinion or are you a disagree?