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Infinite Zamasu and God's Revision
- Thread starter Rabbit2002
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Has I said before why does this matter,
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I'm going off the page for Abstract Existence, fam. The way I saw the scene was that Trunks cuts Zamasu, destroys his body and Zamasu's soul/will lives on as Infinite/Mugen Zamasu, who has Type 1 AE.
Trunks destroying Zamasu's soul with the Sword of Hope wasn't really a factor.
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If you believe in your side then double down on your beliefs.
So he did destroy his soul? Ok.
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I don't understand what you're saying bro
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im not understanding what are u asking
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Simply put, did Trunks destroy Zamasu's soul?
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Bro, hot take questions aren't going to get us anywhere. Would you mind explaining why that's important to AE for Infinite Zamasu?
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exacly like explain why that would matter already
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What's one definition of Zamasu's will that you all agree on? So we're all on the same page? Because I'm hearing his will, mind, thought, etc.
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As... will, will is like, thoughts/feelings, which is an abstraction
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I think I figured out what he's saying. I think what he wants to say is that if Trunks didn't reduce Zamasu to just a will, then Infinite Zamasu shouldn't have Abstract Existence.
However, going off the page, it never says you have to be just that concept to qualify for Abstract Existence. So, whether or not Trunks destroyed Zamasu's soul/spirit is the same thing as a 1-A character's speed: irrelevant. Zamasu could have still had his soul and still be capable of having abstract existence through embodying his own will.
Also, you're referring to the physical fused Zamasu that was cut in half. We're not arguing about whether or not that key has AE, we're talking about the Infinite Zamasu key. To clarify, ki based attacks wouldn't work on IZ and the Sword of Hope (which is just ki that can reduce opponents to souls like in the case of Kid Buu) logically wouldn't be able to affect IZ either.
However, going off the page, it never says you have to be just that concept to qualify for Abstract Existence. So, whether or not Trunks destroyed Zamasu's soul/spirit is the same thing as a 1-A character's speed: irrelevant. Zamasu could have still had his soul and still be capable of having abstract existence through embodying his own will.
Also, you're referring to the physical fused Zamasu that was cut in half. We're not arguing about whether or not that key has AE, we're talking about the Infinite Zamasu key. To clarify, ki based attacks wouldn't work on IZ and the Sword of Hope (which is just ki that can reduce opponents to souls like in the case of Kid Buu) logically wouldn't be able to affect IZ either.
I assumed by will, it was referring to Zamasu's stream of consciousness and thoughts, as IZ was still consciously going to merge with the universe and other timelines to carry out the Zero Mortal Plan.
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Close but not quite
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Then why don't you just say what you're actually trying to articulate instead of making us guess? The guessing game isn't productive at all, friend.
ProudLearner
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Honestly this thread should be close. There was a lot of confusion and taunting along the way. Also, this is very controversial and should of been done on its own thread.
IZ Abstract Existence upgrade needs to be redone on separate CRT with all new stuff that were brought up.
Also, it should be well structured and avoid using "Law and Justice" argument.
IZ Abstract Existence upgrade needs to be redone on separate CRT with all new stuff that were brought up.
Also, it should be well structured and avoid using "Law and Justice" argument.
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If you were referring to me, I apologize. I never meant to taunt, I was just asking for clarity while addressing someone who was against Infinite Zamasu having AE.
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Why? IZ thing is literally one of the main things of the CRT
Except that nobody used it after all
Rez
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Don't worry they are not refering to you
ProudLearner
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Again, Abstract Existence upgrade is very controversial and should be done on a separate thread.
Law Manipulation was rejected but users will come in and talk about it even though it was rejected.
Staff and users that disagree. That's not Abstract Existence. They did not bother to read all the responses and the new stuff that was added along the way.
We are on page four and we are talking about AE but not Supernatural Willpower which the only thing that is not controversial to add.
This is a cluster **** and it will get worse....
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My thing is (and I'm sure the staff probably think similar ideas) is the lack of on-screen evidence. I saw someone mention Gurren Lagann as a false equivalency example, but the two series are drastically different. For one, the type of space they were in was Super Spiral Space, which was stated by the creator of that universe that thought was given form there. Not only that, but the main cast created this same type of space within themselves.
What we know about Zamasu was that his body was the only thing granted immortality, which was why he was taking on a grotesque form in his fused state, because his immortality was no longer pure. All life in DB that isn't erased exist as souls, and if you die as a soul you cease to exist, this is a fact that goes back to regular DBZ. Gowasu speculated "he's cast off his form as a god / cast off his divine vessel" and might be trying to merge with the universe. If he was a soul, then this is doable as a soul without needing abstract existence, though in any regard it doesn't make sense how he could do it, regardless of which approach you believe in, just that he did do it.
I've also seen comparisons to Giygas as "he embodied evil", but again this character also has feats to back it up. He existed as all of the evil in the universe, and could actually manipulate evil in living beings, and could manipulate nonliving objects. Zamasu was speculated to possibly be overcoming the universe's law and order, which as AKM said, is flowery language. For those of you who like to cherry pick arguments and stopped reading at my last sentence, that's not at all my main point. All Zamasu did was turn into a vast, ethereal range of seemingly instinctual intelligence, and shoot ki blasts at Earth. Him being reduced down to his "will" (simply put, his disembodied consciousness) is an ability nobody has nor was it stated in the actual show, which means further evidence is required. Basing an entire argument on "Toei's website said so" is literally an invincible authority fallacy.
I probably won't reply further until there is more staff input, because we'll continue to go back and forth all day.
What we know about Zamasu was that his body was the only thing granted immortality, which was why he was taking on a grotesque form in his fused state, because his immortality was no longer pure. All life in DB that isn't erased exist as souls, and if you die as a soul you cease to exist, this is a fact that goes back to regular DBZ. Gowasu speculated "he's cast off his form as a god / cast off his divine vessel" and might be trying to merge with the universe. If he was a soul, then this is doable as a soul without needing abstract existence, though in any regard it doesn't make sense how he could do it, regardless of which approach you believe in, just that he did do it.
I've also seen comparisons to Giygas as "he embodied evil", but again this character also has feats to back it up. He existed as all of the evil in the universe, and could actually manipulate evil in living beings, and could manipulate nonliving objects. Zamasu was speculated to possibly be overcoming the universe's law and order, which as AKM said, is flowery language. For those of you who like to cherry pick arguments and stopped reading at my last sentence, that's not at all my main point. All Zamasu did was turn into a vast, ethereal range of seemingly instinctual intelligence, and shoot ki blasts at Earth. Him being reduced down to his "will" (simply put, his disembodied consciousness) is an ability nobody has nor was it stated in the actual show, which means further evidence is required. Basing an entire argument on "Toei's website said so" is literally an invincible authority fallacy.
I probably won't reply further until there is more staff input, because we'll continue to go back and forth all day.
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Vietthai96
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Entirely wrong
1. Will, Desire and Emotion is not exactly a concept, but an abstract created from living being that have feeling and emotion, it is the same as Hate, Love,....as they are abstract. Like you said exactly in your comment as IZ is the embodies of Zamasu's will and desire that continue his conquest for justice, no one going to argue he become AE base on the concept of Law and Justice. Please read the AE page, you guy forced the AE thing is strictly required embody a concept.
2. You don't need concept manip to affect or destroy AE being. Please read the AE page:
1. Will, Desire and Emotion is not exactly a concept, but an abstract created from living being that have feeling and emotion, it is the same as Hate, Love,....as they are abstract. Like you said exactly in your comment as IZ is the embodies of Zamasu's will and desire that continue his conquest for justice, no one going to argue he become AE base on the concept of Law and Justice. Please read the AE page, you guy forced the AE thing is strictly required embody a concept.
2. You don't need concept manip to affect or destroy AE being. Please read the AE page:
- Abstract entities recurrently strictly embody a concept, thought or idea up to a certain level of reality. For example, Eternity only embodies time on a local, universal scale. If the universe is destroyed, so is he.
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Okay
the website which is owned by the company who makes the literal show isn't reliable.
also please people should read. We are not giving him AE for embodying a concept, literally no one in the supporters is arguing for that. We are giving him that because of his will, will is an emotion which is absract.
So let me get this straight.
the website which is owned by the company who makes the literal show isn't reliable.
also please people should read. We are not giving him AE for embodying a concept, literally no one in the supporters is arguing for that. We are giving him that because of his will, will is an emotion which is absract.
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I said people were going to cherry pick my argument and not comprehend my entire message as soon as I typed that statement and look what happens....this is why you are making 0 progress.
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I don't think anyone in the supporting side is arguing for law or whatever, we are talking about his will and no, AE is the main focus for now, we don't care about "controversial", we have an argument that supported by evidence, it doesn't matter how "ridiculous" or how "not dragon ball like" if anyone is going to use these arguments, by all due respect stop debating, because those aren't arguments, it's the absence of an argument.
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The irony
now you feel how we feel when people come to this thread without reading anything and just blatantly disagreeing
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I deleted that post because I know its going to go off-topic, but I disagree and believe everything is a concept, however it much deeper than that. However I'm not going to go into a full-blown philosophical debate because I already see how severely this thread will be derailed.
Taking my leave from this thread now.
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You know that being made by will/thoughts is rated as Abstract Existence right? And the Law stuff already was rejected a lot of pages ago, nobody is talking about it anymore, and it is not controversial
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You actually don't need to be the embodiment of a concept to be abstract really
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Just ......just.....delete that Law shit from OP, its causing more harm than benefit.
Rez
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The problem with your argument is that the show has no anti feats supporting it
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I personally never made that claim, but I do hate verse-to-verse comparisons.
I don't quite understand the portion I bolded in your post, and hopefully you can give me some context on this. To paraphrase, "merging with the universe is doable as a soul, but it doesn't make sense how he did it, but he did do it"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've seen no feats of souls in Dragon Ball being able to merge with anything. The closest thing to what happened with Zamasu is Vegeta getting a new body in the Buu Saga, if I'm not mistaken. And as I've stated before, it's not a contradiction for Zamasu to have Type 1 Abstract Existence and keep his soul in this situation: all it means is that Trunks can't destroy either.
Not really a point I personally was making, but again, I'm with you on the bad false equivalencies with verses.
It doesn't have to be clearly stated to be something he can do, or a the very least, possibly do. For example: Goku never said "I can create dimensional rifts and even destroy space-time and pocket dimensions with my energy!" However, we say he's possibly able to do it due to the assumption that the ability is power based, and the fact that Goku is naturally stronger than characters who have done it.
But getting back on track, here's what we know:
- Zamasu's body was immortal.
- Zamasu fused with Goku Black, corrupting his immortality.
- Trunks killed Zamasu's physical body.
- Zamasu lives as Infinite Zamasu and begins to merge with the universe.
- Infinite Zamasu continues to carry out the Zero Mortal Plan.
Again, I didn't personally center my argument around this, but I don't think most others in support of it did either. This isn't the entire premise, but rather supporting evidence that can be used to support the idea of Infinite Zamasu having Type 1 Abstract Existence. It's similar to how there was that time on the Dragon Ball Super website they mentioned Jiren surpassing Gods of Destruction and such, and how that could have been used (wasn't there when the ratings were made to know for sure) to determine Jiren's rating.
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So, again, can somebody write a reasonably comprehensive explanation, that is still easy to understand, of what is being suggested here, along with the arguments against and for it, please? Then I can call some staff afterwards.
Also, what other than abstract existence has been suggested here? Becoming a universe rather than a concept, does not seem sufficient to me in that regard.
Also, what other than abstract existence has been suggested here? Becoming a universe rather than a concept, does not seem sufficient to me in that regard.
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The argument for Abstract Existence is because Infinite Zamasu is Zamasu Will itself that it's acting on it own, and the Abstract Existence page mentions things like Feeling/Thoughts being Abstracts, which is the reason that Jujutsu Kaisen curses have Abstract Existence
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And the counter arguments are not well made, it's people saying that ''laws and order are only hyperbole'' despite it not being the argument that we are using for Abstract Existence to Infinite Zamasu
Rez
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The ae here is being suggested for infinite zamasu being zamasu's will which is further supported by toei's official timeline stating is zamasu's will
The argument made against it is mostly that it wasn't stated in the show although their are no Anti feats against it in the show so their are no inconsistencies
Here is Hermes translation of timeline:
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@Bernkastelll vsbattles logic at its finest. Zamasu does NOT have ae type 1.
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It's not about him fusing with the universe, it's about his will.
his will, an abstarct thing "like emotions and such since they are treated as absract" fused zamasu is zamasu's will fusing with the universe
his will, an abstarct thing "like emotions and such since they are treated as absract" fused zamasu is zamasu's will fusing with the universe
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Not only toei statements are not to be taken seriously, there's 0 proof of zamasu's will being abstract. Its just his soul, Only his physicals body was erased after Trunks slashed him.
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It's not abstract though. There are 0 feats suggesting it is.
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