Infinite Zamasu and God's Revision

[RisingIons]

IZ being Zamasu's will /consciousness would qualify for AE, just not a conceptual one.

" It's a bad take" Isn't a debunk

Cherrypicking from an entire sentence isn't a rebuttal. Zamasu's body was destroyed and his will/soul expanded throughout the universe thanks to Super Shenron giving him immortality, which would at best give him Type 5 immortality, among him fusing with space and time. There's even proof that souls are allowed to exist in before the mortal universe and the afterlife, he's just the first to occupy an entire universe with this form.

We also require reliable feats and statements. Zamasu didn't go into present Universe 7, as if he was waiting for an invitation, and he allowed everyone to time travel out of the universe before he was erased. He's featless. Gowasu's entire statement was conjecture.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Cherrypicking from an entire sentence isn't a rebuttal. Zamasu's body was destroyed and his will/soul expanded throughout the universe thanks to Super Shenron giving him immortality, which would at best give him Type 5 immortality, among him fusing with space and time. There's even proof that souls are allowed to exist in before the mortal universe and the afterlife, he's just the first to occupy an entire universe with this form.

We also require reliable feats and statements. Zamasu didn't go into present Universe 7, as if he was waiting for an invitation, and he allowed everyone to time travel out of the universe before he was erased. He's featless. Gowasu's entire statement was conjecture.

Cherry picking? Ok sure. That's a statement cut and clear. Even the raw Japanese says that it's his will. Can we please not start with the poetic language bullshit again? Because that requires evidence. The kanji for soul is another one, why didn't they use that then? But yeah let's go the "poetic language" way, because that's indirectly the path we took

IZ isn't featless.merging with the universe is a feat. You're even contradicting yourself here. "Cherry picking" Yeah sure, please I'm not stupid

You just slapped "it's a bad take" BTW, I can't debunk a sentence which doesn't even say anything lol.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Anyways this thread is not my priority right now so I have to unsubscribe

 

[Vietthai96]

Nothing of the sort is happening here. Only Zamasu's body was destroyed. His soul was not. This is just his incorporeal form spreading throughout the universe and having the power to enact his will. If I was super strong and somehow spread throughout the universe, I could also make my wish of killing all mortals a reality, which is what it means in this context.

Sorry but you need to prove it is his soul, it is not "soul" just because you interpreting it your way

 

[Rez]

Nothing of the sort is happening here. Only Zamasu's body was destroyed. His soul was not. This is just his incorporeal form spreading throughout the universe and having the power to enact his will. If I was super strong and somehow spread throughout the universe, I could also make my wish of killing all mortals a reality, which is what it means in this context.

Toei's official timeline usese the word will so no

 

[Rez]

Nothing of the sort is happening here. Only Zamasu's body was destroyed. His soul was not. This is just his incorporeal form spreading throughout the universe and having the power to enact his will. If I was super strong and somehow spread throughout the universe, I could also make my wish of killing all mortals a reality, which is what it means in this context.

https://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/special/07.html

 

[Rez]

Their is an fan translation of this Available on super fandom wiki which I posted here

 

[Rez]

We also require reliable feats and statements. Zamasu didn't go into present Universe 7, as if he was waiting for an invitation, and he allowed everyone to time travel out of the universe before he was erased. He's featless. Gowasu's entire statement was conjecture.

This is not even a counter argument how is zamasu supposed to go in past the only thing that was stated was that his presence was ripping an hole in space and time it was never stated how long it will take him to completely affect present

 

[Rez]

I may not know Japanese but from what I have researched about this article Soul is 魂 Tamashī meanwhile will is 意志 Ishi that's quite a bit of difference

https://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/special/07.html

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If he was soul he would have been called a soul, but he is not.
he is called will.
No need to use headcanons, just give him AE already.

 

[Orange]

Sooooo it was stated his will in toie officiall timeline, we are arguing about giving him AE because of that.
yet some people come and don't literally read anything and disagree for the wrong reasons "law and order " that's not why we are giving him AR. "Poetic language " "flowery language " yeah no, if you are using that argument, just tell us that you don't have any actual evidence to support your claims. No, will and soul aren't the same , no the writers don't state his soul, no we can't say it was his soul. No it's not poetic because nothing indicate it is, dbz isn't that poetic of a verse in the first place. Will, anger, mind, emotions..are absract, we are giving him AE because his literal will was fusing with the universe, thus AE, please tell me with a clear cut statement word no "they could mean this, but possibly that" that they aren't referring to his will, please show me why the statement is wrong and don't use silly excuses like "poetic language" "unreliable source" it really puts you in a bad picture, please before start debunking anything...READ THE WHOLE THREAD.

 

[Reio35]

Gods aren't acausal. Even zeno who scales above them isn't he literal had future and past self so did all the other gods.

As far as the abstract nonsense. If he was truly justice it self then he would still be alive in other timelines. Considering that concept still exist.

 

[Bernkastelll]

As far as the abstract nonsense. If he was truly justice it self then he would still be alive in other timelines. Considering that concept still exist.

Abstract not always is concept

 

[Orange]

Gods aren't acausal. Even zeno who scales above them isn't he literal had future and past self so did all the other gods.

As far as the abstract nonsense. If he was truly justice it self then he would still be alive in other timelines. Considering that concept still exist.

someone didn't read the whole thread I see

 

[manu_zarri]

Gods aren't acausal. Even zeno who scales above them isn't he literal had future and past self so did all the other gods.

this means nothing since 1) Zeno future self come from another timeline 2) acasual type 1 have past and future

As far as the abstract nonsense. If he was truly justice it self then he would still be alive in other timelines. Considering that concept still exist.

ironically Zamasu was going in other timelines, and it's not of concept that we are talking about, we are talking about zamasu being will so

 

[Thelastmlg]

Again, the AE is not for the law, justice, whatever, he is not conceptual, it is based on him being pure will.

This is the same case as high 6-A, 99% of frats on this level are surface busting, but that doesn't mean high 6-A is only surface busting, is just the most common feat.

being a concept is the most common state for AE, but it is not the only way you can get it.

 

[sanicspood]

literally noones reading the thread and just blindly disagreeing just cuz they don't want AE dragon ball. this is nonsense

 

[Orange]

maybe we should put a big message that contains all the iinform- oh wait we did it and they still ignored it.

 

[Braking]

literally noones reading the thread and just blindly dsiagreeing. this is nonsense

This IS dbs of course people gon be doing that

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

someone didn't read the whole thread I see

People come with misplaced ""swagger"" then get memed on.
Lol

 

[Orange]

People come with misplaced ""swagger"" then get memed on.
Lol

watch me as I catch the next person who will not read everything , I guess that's my job now lmao

 

[AKM sama]

Law manipulation: granted to IZ because his AP justification is overriding universe's law and order
"Universe level+ (As stated by both Gowasu and Beerus, Zamasu, in this state, was becoming one with the universe and overriding its law and order"

At first I was talking about this part in the OP. This is flowery language.

It is because he becomes the law of the universe

This was stated again as a reason for AE.

Supernatural Willpower and absorption: Toei's Official timeline declares Infinite zamasu to be Zamasu's will losing control and engulfing the universe, implies he is not only merging universe 7 and becoming it, but instead engulfing it into his own will which is infinite zamasu

Who in their right mind would link a random imgur scan when they know the actual tweet is from Herms who is the most credible source for translations when it comes to DB? Should've just linked that so people don't have to go on a search for the actual source smh

 

[RisingIons]

I'd first like to point out that nowhere is the phrasing "will" said in the anime, but it is derived from Toei's website.

First of all in OP's own wording: "It is because he becomes the law of the universe Similar to the case of Gods (shinza) , although on a much smaller and incomparable scale."

The very example he uses to support his argument is gods that apparently have the ability to do this as well, but on a larger scale. However on the second sentence explaining this ability, it states "it is born from one's soul". Lets point out the fact that nowhere were we shown Zamasu's soul being destroyed, just his body, nor was his soul stated to be destroyed, but instead he's cast off his form (really it was cast off for him courtesy of Trunks), which is a physical thing, such as his body. Will is the capability of conscious choice and decision and intention. If he was reduced to a soul, he can still act upon his will, and it is within the context of his ability (immortality). Claiming he's acting as a disembodied thought with no origin requires further evidence and its unprecedented as far as the show goes.

Nobody on the team that fought Zamasu possesses the power to destroy souls, and even the spirit bomb that obliterated Kid Buu in the past reduced him to a soul.

 

[Rez]

I'd first like to point out that nowhere is the phrasing "will" said in the anime, but it is derived from Toei's website.

Are you implying the people who made the anime aren't good enough source

 

[Rez]

First of all in OP's own wording: "It is because he becomes the law of the universe Similar to the case of Gods (shinza) , although on a much smaller and incomparable scale."

This irrelevant nobody here agrees with the law manipulation argument the ae is being argued for infinite zamasu being his will here

 

[Rez]

I may not know Japanese but from what I have researched about this article Soul is 魂 Tamashī meanwhile will is 意志 Ishi that's quite a bit of difference

Again if it was just soul the word 魂 would have been used

 

[Rez]

And ghosts and souls exists in db so using the kanji for will is an clear distinction

 

[RisingIons]

This irrelevant nobody here agrees with the law manipulation argument the ae is being argued for infinite zamasu being his will here

Are you implying the people who made the anime aren't good enough source

I'm saying if the idea of a "will" isn't stated even the show much less hinted at or absence of even an attempt to explain it past the vague "cast off his form as a god", why would I take a website's version of events? Cast off his form = got rid of his body. Every being in db has a soul that exists unless otherwise stated or they were erased.

And you're right, the law manipulation argument is irrelevant which is why I wasn't speaking about it. I was speaking about how their abilities are derived from their soul.

You don't have to multi-post btw.

 

[Orange]

I'm saying if the idea of a "will" isn't stated even the show much less hinted at or absence of even an attempt to explain it past the vague "cast off his form as a god", why would I take a website's version of events? Cast off his form = got rid of his body. Every being in db has a soul that exists unless otherwise stated or they were erased.

And you're right, the law manipulation argument is irrelevant which is why I wasn't speaking about it. I was speaking about how their abilities are derived from their soul.

You don't have to multi-post btw.

Maybe because the website is an actual credible source,coming from the company did actually did ya know...the anime, actually why shouldn't we trust it? Isn't from the company who is making the anime, thus the statement would be even more credible than any statement from the anime itself.
It clearly states that it's his will what's doing everything. Why are we even talking about souls and spirit when toie clearly states that it's his will, not his soul, not his heart, not his mommy issues. Saying that it's his soul is a head canon.

 

[Rez]

I'm saying if the idea of a "will" isn't stated even the show much less hinted at or absence of even an attempt to explain it past the vague "cast off his form as a god", why would I take a website's version of events?

Because it's from an official source and the Wiki accepts those

 

[Orange]

Because it's from an official source and the Wiki accepts those

No no, just because it's from the company that literally procudes the anime, the company that has the writers that are responsible for the anime, the official website that is ran by said company obviously means that they are totally unreliable.
You should trust my headcanon instead of the official statement from the company.
Source : dude trust me

 

[sanicspood]

This was stated again as a reason for AE.

wasnt the reason anymore. read the thread

 

[sanicspood]

we actually have 2 arguments for ae, the will one and shadowwarriors so graciously gave us

 

[manu_zarri]

Why "it's not in anime, it's outside anime soucre" is even an argument? if it's said by toei which made DBS anime then it's valid. that's all. that's just like using a databook or something, aka it's valid.

 

[My_area]

Who in their right mind would link a random imgur scan when they know the actual tweet is from Herms who is the most credible source for translations when it comes to DB? Should've just linked that so people don't have to go on a search for the actual source smh

Just in case you are still searching for the source of the Toei's timeline.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

トランクスの剣により真っ二つに引き裂かれたザマスは、半狂乱になり、わめき散らしながら砕け散った。ついにやった。トランクスたちは喜びを噛みしめていた。と、その時、突如、地鳴りとともに不気味な気の奔流が空へ噴きあがる。そこには、ザマスの顔が無数に浮かび上がり、笑い声を響かせながら拡がって空を覆う。悟空たちは気弾を放ち攻撃するも、全く歯が立たない。逆に、空からエネルギー波が激しく降り注ぎ、街を跡形もなく消し去っていく。絶望的な状況の中、悟空は自分の懐の中に何かが入っていることに気づく。

Torn in half by Trunks' sword, Zamasu went half-crazy, ranting and raving as he shattered. He had finally done it. Trunks and the others were biting back their joy. Then, suddenly, with a rumbling of the earth, an eerie rush of energy erupted into the sky. There, Zamasu's face appeared in countless numbers, spreading out and covering the sky with his laughing voice. Goku and the others attacked with chi bullets, but they were completely helpless. On the contrary, energy waves poured down from the sky, wiping out the city without a trace. In the midst of the desperate situation, Goku realizes that there is something in his pocket.

There you have it, folks; straight from the horse's mouth: Infinite Zamasu is energy.
I'll take my Nobel Prize, please if i hear a ******* chainsaw man reference, i'm going to lose it.

Along with that, there is also a statement from the artbook within the Blu-Ray BOX 6.

トランクスに切り裂かれた合体ザマスだったが、その念は空へと舞い上がり地球全体を包み込んだ。

The combined Zamasu was torn apart by Trunks, but the reminder soared into the sky and enveloped the entire earth.

If his physical form was destroyed, then what remains? Oh yeah, his eternal spirit.

 

[Rez]

There you have it, folks; straight from the horse's mouth: Infinite Zamasu is energy.
I'll take my Nobel Prize, please if i hear a ******* chainsaw man reference, i'm going to lose it.

That's refering to zamasu's energy attack

 

[Rez]

If his physical form was destroyed, then what remains? Oh yeah, his eternal spirit.

So we are just gonna ignore the part saying it's zamasu's will running out of control

 

[Orange]

Oh hey check it out, the official version states that's his will is engulfing the universe.

Just in case you are still searching for the source of the Toei's timeline.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a list of which staff members that have replied so far to this thread, and summarise what they have accepted and rejected please?