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Okay then.
Would this be acceptable for you @AKM sama and @DarkDragonMedeus ?
No. My hangup has been that this feels too much like scaling between different continuities.
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The forgotten speed of Watagash
- Thread starter SSJRyu1
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Also...
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Yeah. Just because the filler is canon to Dragon Ball Super doesn't make me feel comfortable about backscaling it to Dragon Ball Z. As if Toriyama when writing Dragon Ball Z had this kind of thing in mind.
DivineAura44
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I officially hate the word feel.
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Just because it's canon to the story which is canon to the original story it doesn't actually mean it's canon to the original story....
You see how dumb that sounds? Or it's just me?
Hasty12345
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Honestly, I feel like this thread has devolved a bit, and is starting to stray into silly territory...
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- #288
Back scaling refers to scaling a feat to a weaker character, like if you said SSJG Goku was 3-A, and SSJ2 enraged Vegeta could push Beerus to get a little serious similar to SSJG and was above SSJ3 Goku, so he should be 3-A or 3-B. The placement in the continuity or whether or not a writer takes a break has no bearing on scaling if its all in continuity. Which DBS anime is and is considered to be in the wiki.
We already use things from Super as information for DBZ like Frieza's Planet Vegeta destruction as shown in Super, or the explanation of the structure of the Universe and many galaxies etc.
DivineAura44
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I love how this is acceptable to some simply because the fact that it wouldn't be big. Not about the actual evidence of it.
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wdym
DivineAura44
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This is only being pushed by some because of the fact that it wouldn't change much. If it would, Ant probably wouldn't agree with it, even if it wasn't an outlier.
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Yeah. I noticed that this calc lowballs the feat by saying that he travelled from the next solar system.
Is there anything that implies him actually being that close?
Vietthai96
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Non though, but Ryu doesn't want to exaggerate the feat too much
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- Thread starter
- #295
It's unknown how far out he is, just that its not the same solar system. So it is a conservative estimate. Although it is certainly possible that it is further.
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While the initial jumps are indeed cherry picked and lowballed, we had to do those in lack of better options and AKM was right about us can't going too extreme on either end. And the best calculated feat is Relativistic+ and everyone else getting FTL to Massively FTL+ ratings through multiple steps of multipliers and guess work jumps combination was what throughs people off. But Kaioken and Frieza's percentage power are at least consistent enough to warrant said jumps. And there are some random FTL statements here and there. So Firestorm is right regarding that.
However, even the Watagash feat could be notoriously lowballed for all we know, we do know he traveled at interstellar distances, but it could have been more like an otherside of the galaxy travel distance for all we know. Which with the current timeframe. Also, it appears the Galactic patrol also travels to other galaxies on a regular basis, with Watagash apparently being able to fly at comparable speeds to their ships, so he may be even faster than what was initially thought. I'm not sure how I feel with lowballing a flight speed feat to scale it to various past characters. Also, the Frieza blowing up Vegeta example is different, it's merely an animated version of a feat that did happen in the original manga; which is why it is legit. But Watagash had no showing in the original DBZ Manga.
As for how his power level works, AKM is right it's more of an empathy based power and not Ki. The generic robber really isn't that much weaker than Barry Kahn; yet the former wasn't even close to a casual base Gohan's power while the other actually overpowered his SSJ form; requiring him to make use of evasive maneuvers and tactics. It even says on the wiki "The more evil the host, the more power Watagash grows". Also, in his parasite form, we was easily captured by Jaco and needed to wait for Jaco to be distracted by ramen again before he escapes. So while we can't give him much of a tier, he appears to be physically weaker than even Jaco without a host.
However, even the Watagash feat could be notoriously lowballed for all we know, we do know he traveled at interstellar distances, but it could have been more like an otherside of the galaxy travel distance for all we know. Which with the current timeframe. Also, it appears the Galactic patrol also travels to other galaxies on a regular basis, with Watagash apparently being able to fly at comparable speeds to their ships, so he may be even faster than what was initially thought. I'm not sure how I feel with lowballing a flight speed feat to scale it to various past characters. Also, the Frieza blowing up Vegeta example is different, it's merely an animated version of a feat that did happen in the original manga; which is why it is legit. But Watagash had no showing in the original DBZ Manga.
As for how his power level works, AKM is right it's more of an empathy based power and not Ki. The generic robber really isn't that much weaker than Barry Kahn; yet the former wasn't even close to a casual base Gohan's power while the other actually overpowered his SSJ form; requiring him to make use of evasive maneuvers and tactics. It even says on the wiki "The more evil the host, the more power Watagash grows". Also, in his parasite form, we was easily captured by Jaco and needed to wait for Jaco to be distracted by ramen again before he escapes. So while we can't give him much of a tier, he appears to be physically weaker than even Jaco without a host.
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@DarkDragonMedeus
Assuming a distance beyond the solar system would have no basis in fact, the conservative estimate is the next solar system over. Trying to guess how far he was beyond that would just be head canon. So trying to say Watagash might be way faster in his feat, so its inconsistent, is based in an unprovable larger distance to get said numbers and not a reasonable conclusion.
Characters scaling that exist in an earlier part of the story is a non issue, its in continuity and the wiki accepts it as such in its entirety. Frieza's feat is still a later depiction of the event done in Super, and information/showings about cosmology and such in DBS is still applied to classic DB. Its double standards to cherry pick what parts of DBS can be used and what parts can't. Trying to make up a rule that suddenly DBS is not canon to DBZ, and is basically like GT where you can't scale anything to DBZ is ridiculous and an underhanded tactic to avoid accepting a revision if you seriously go through with it. They are considered the main continuity together, not some adaptation or what if scenario.
The robber lost to Gohan after surprising him with his power up, all we know is Gohan base > robber+ Watagash fused. Saying the robber was powerless with Wataash is never shown or stated. The wiki isn't canon, so better to use quotes from the show. Not true, Jaco never captures Watagash on his own. He only is ever able to after Gohan knocks him out. Jaco even feels the need to enlist Gohan's help to catch him. There is no point where Jaco overpowers or even captures Watagash on his own. So Jaco doesn't have proof to scale.
Assuming a distance beyond the solar system would have no basis in fact, the conservative estimate is the next solar system over. Trying to guess how far he was beyond that would just be head canon. So trying to say Watagash might be way faster in his feat, so its inconsistent, is based in an unprovable larger distance to get said numbers and not a reasonable conclusion.
Characters scaling that exist in an earlier part of the story is a non issue, its in continuity and the wiki accepts it as such in its entirety. Frieza's feat is still a later depiction of the event done in Super, and information/showings about cosmology and such in DBS is still applied to classic DB. Its double standards to cherry pick what parts of DBS can be used and what parts can't. Trying to make up a rule that suddenly DBS is not canon to DBZ, and is basically like GT where you can't scale anything to DBZ is ridiculous and an underhanded tactic to avoid accepting a revision if you seriously go through with it. They are considered the main continuity together, not some adaptation or what if scenario.
The robber lost to Gohan after surprising him with his power up, all we know is Gohan base > robber+ Watagash fused. Saying the robber was powerless with Wataash is never shown or stated. The wiki isn't canon, so better to use quotes from the show. Not true, Jaco never captures Watagash on his own. He only is ever able to after Gohan knocks him out. Jaco even feels the need to enlist Gohan's help to catch him. There is no point where Jaco overpowers or even captures Watagash on his own. So Jaco doesn't have proof to scale.
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I still dont know why the legit 10x Boost wasnt used
Goku while Holding back blitzed Buter & Jeice at the same time (who Blitzed Vegeta Post zarbon& Superior to KKx4 goku saiyan saga) , there is 10x increase in both gravity & power level formula matching perfectly with the volume synopsis Statement about goku being 10x stronger & faster
After this many evidences how can anyone reject it
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- Thread starter
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It should have been used in the first place quite frankly, and most people agreed. Watagash feat substantiates it even further and gives a direct MFTL+ feat to classic DB 4-C and up guys backing the scaling.
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Hey, I guess we can't relay on evidence and just lowball for the sake of being "faire" and "conservative" ammirite?
I mean blitzing people who are superior to goku kk4, increased pl which was consistent with 10x , and there is a potential that he is even stronger and faster since he was blitzing them and toying with them while not using his full power . I forgot using evidence is prohibited here , sorry
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I have to go to work again, so I'll address points later unless AKM does first.
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In any case, can you all drop the toxicity here please? We are just trying to do our jobs of evaluating whether or not revisions seem reliable. That is all. We are not remotely motivated by malicious intent or dislike for the series.
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Yeah, that is to simplified to work. Although knowledgeable regular members should have some sort of direct tangible input on if things get passed to, not just selective staff.
DivineAura44
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Not only that, it just like you know, the definition of ad populum.
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- #306
To be fair, I don't think you have malicious intent or hate DB.
The issue I have is that it seems like the only opinion that is given any weight is that of staff. For example @AKM sama opinion seems to have more weight than the support of over 20 knowledgeable regular members backing a solid, coherent and accurate revision.
Or even look at you asking @Firestorm808 to evaluate the points to settle it, then when he says he agrees with the Watagash points suddenly its not enough to make the decision. Then Firestorm says some points, many of which that I have been saying all along, and suddenly your OK with it since the points come from him, a staff, and not me.
Just massive favoritism and double standards among certain staff is what I see, even if you don't see it. Pointing it out is not Toxic like swearing or doxing or harassment, if anything letting it fester and continue unchecked is toxic, it's bringing to light a huge issue to hopefully be reflected upon and solved to the best of everybody's ability.
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If I haven't stated my opinion for this thread already, it is that I personally agree with using the 10x stated multiplier from the synopsis for post-Training Namek Saga Goku's base state for obvious reasons, considering that I was one of the few who argued extensively against removing the KK multipliers and the initial SSJ1 multiplier and considering that the multiplier show themselves to be consistent in the showings of power levels and the dominance showed by Goku over the Ginyu Force by a massive margin.
That would of course, mean that the Watagash speed feat gets axed but it would definitely be a good support for DB's god-tiers making the massive jump to MFTL+.
That would of course, mean that the Watagash speed feat gets axed but it would definitely be a good support for DB's god-tiers making the massive jump to MFTL+.
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Constant hostility, mocking, or disrespect from certain members is a form of toxicity.
In any case, there is no better available working system than what we have now, as depriving staff of their authority would make their job of evaluating many threads at once near impossible, due to prolonged war of attrition arguing, and lead to pure popularity contest anarchy as well.
The only thing that we can do is try to strictly make the most rational, reliable, helpful, and levelheaded members into staff, who among other things should act as bulwarks against unreliable information.
Also, as I keep repeating, I realistically simply do not have the time available to read everything in all the discussion threads that I follow, so I tend to focus more on staff posts in order to save time and spread the workload.
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Okay. And?
Watagash doesn't perform general fusion. I don't know why that's relevant here. Even the DB wiki page you linked doesn't have Watagash's name or mention of it. In fact, he is mentioned under infection/possession:
"Being a parasite, Watagash is capable of taking control of whomever it chooses, it is lured by the darkness in people's hearts and infects them. It is then capable of powering them up, the more evil they are the greater the power up."
Nowhere does it say that the host would get Watagash's stats. Just that the host's stats will get boosted in proportion to the darkness in their heart.
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After remembering the 1491c Scaling Chain, I'd prefer that we just discuss that more and drop the Watagash stuff.
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Yeah, it's best to tackle the 10x statement instead.
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Great. Then I disagree with that whole scaling chain because MFTL from a rel+ feat when there is nothing in the verse that comes close until many many years later, is simply blind multiplier stacking.
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If we are to change discussion topics, we should ask the OP if he wants to continue this one or not. Then someone can make a new tread.
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You were the one who suggested the topic change, despite it being discussed heavily in a previous thread.
I don't think anything of value is left to do here regarding the Watagash issue. The Gohan scaling probably needs its own new thread.
I don't think anything of value is left to do here regarding the Watagash issue. The Gohan scaling probably needs its own new thread.
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I think we should wait for SSJRyu1 to give his input, if the topic is truly going to change
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And as discussed, we disagree with this (Specifically you disagreeing with even the low-end 596c end) because it flies in the face of the blatant power increases and display of dominance Goku and co. show with their power-ups against the Ginyu Force. Back when the moon feat was Sub-Rel the multipliers were the only thing keeping them at FTL+ ad DDM had mentioned before, but there is no denying of how blatant the Kaio-Ken multipliers are. There being only one Rel feat doesn't mean anything with Dragon Ball being one of those verses where power massively increases arc after arc.
Anything below MFTL with Kaio-Ken multipliers at this point is blatant downplay. If you have a problem with MFTL+, fine, we can agree to disagree on that, but keeping the feats at FTL+ while also rejecting the sheer explicitness of Kaio-Ken would just basically be rejection of how Kaio-Ken operates, AKA it'd be incredibly disingenuous and dishonest.
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I am neither rejecting the kaioken multipliers, nor I am saying they did not get power boosts over time. But it's obviously not downplay to ask for feats or some evidence to support the blind multiplier stacking. It's one of the thing that is infamous for exaggerating statistics and you don't see them getting abused like this with other verses. If you are making a claim that your character makes an insane jump in speed based on multiplier stacking, then you should have something to show for it that is not a rel+ feat.
Anyway, I didn't become an obstruction in the earlier thread and let MFTL happen anyway, so I'd appreciate if we drop constantly bringing up the topic again to reach MFTL+.
Anyway, I didn't become an obstruction in the earlier thread and let MFTL happen anyway, so I'd appreciate if we drop constantly bringing up the topic again to reach MFTL+.
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Honestly, I don't care anymore.
The Watagash feat is perfectly legitimate, has yet to be disproven at any level and has massive amounts of support, it should have been passed long ago, but it's clear that staff favoritism and double standards has been delaying and will continue to delay and prevent it from being passed. Same with the Gohan, Piccolo and Frost scaling.
Basically this is how the thread went
Revision gets over 20 knowledgeable people supporting it but @AKM sama and @DarkDragonMedeus disagree.
1. Let's try to disprove Gohan scaling.
Fair enough, I can debunk that.
2. Let's try to prove Watagash base doesn't scale to his fusions or Gohan.
OK, I can can debunk that to if you really need me to.
3. Let's try to get firestorm to agree so we can say more staff agree.
Firestorm agrees with Watagash points instead.
4. Let's try to prove that the Watagash feat is much higher so we can call it inconsistent.
Can't be proven, quickly shut down. Conservative estimate is next SS over.
5. OK, let's try to claim DBS doesn't scale to classic DBZ so the feat can't scale.
Really, your gonna revise the accepted continuity of DB on the wiki to try and avoid passing a revision?
I support the Gohan scaling, and both the Watagash feat and the 1491c scaling, and they both substantiate each others numbers, and I have meticulously explained why already in this thread and the prior one on the scaling. But I am done here since the arguments have become circular long ago, and I have proven my points as far as I'm concerned.
The Watagash feat is perfectly legitimate, has yet to be disproven at any level and has massive amounts of support, it should have been passed long ago, but it's clear that staff favoritism and double standards has been delaying and will continue to delay and prevent it from being passed. Same with the Gohan, Piccolo and Frost scaling.
Basically this is how the thread went
Revision gets over 20 knowledgeable people supporting it but @AKM sama and @DarkDragonMedeus disagree.
1. Let's try to disprove Gohan scaling.
Fair enough, I can debunk that.
2. Let's try to prove Watagash base doesn't scale to his fusions or Gohan.
OK, I can can debunk that to if you really need me to.
3. Let's try to get firestorm to agree so we can say more staff agree.
Firestorm agrees with Watagash points instead.
4. Let's try to prove that the Watagash feat is much higher so we can call it inconsistent.
Can't be proven, quickly shut down. Conservative estimate is next SS over.
5. OK, let's try to claim DBS doesn't scale to classic DBZ so the feat can't scale.
Really, your gonna revise the accepted continuity of DB on the wiki to try and avoid passing a revision?
I support the Gohan scaling, and both the Watagash feat and the 1491c scaling, and they both substantiate each others numbers, and I have meticulously explained why already in this thread and the prior one on the scaling. But I am done here since the arguments have become circular long ago, and I have proven my points as far as I'm concerned.
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DivineAura44
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I can make a new thread titled "Potential DBZ Speed Downgrade", instead of continuing from here.
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