Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

[Deagonx]

Even if you have beyond dimensional existance, that doesn't mean you are beyond all levels of transcendence.

If anything those quotes would contradict a High 1-B space in my view.

 

[KingNanaya]

firestorm was responding to a post he saw at that time and not the OP, and I had said earlier that Qawsedf never gave a vote. he said he thinks the scans used may contradict each other.

 

[Deagonx]

Well, I won't go back and forth on the matter, but the way I see it the vote is -- at best -- 3 to 3. But we can wait to see what Ultima's final vote is on the matter.

 

[KingNanaya]

But we can wait to see what Ultima's final vote is on the matter.

I can agree on that. but I'd like to talk to you in DMs if that's alright with you.

 

[Deagonx]

You're always welcome to send me a message.

 

[Antvasima]

Can each side of the arguments in this thread write an explanation post regarding what is being argued here exactly please?

A tally of which staff members that think what wouldn't hurt either.

 

[KingNanaya]

Can each side of the arguments in this thread write an explanation post regarding what is being argued here exactly please?

Got permission to make a comment from @LephyrTheRevanchist.

A machine translation is being used for Roa's statement, when a more reliable human translation is already available here.

To make reading it convenient for everyone, the passage with context is found in the spoiler tag:

Spoiler: Roa's conversation

"Why reincarnation, anyway? It'd be a lot easier to prolong your own individual life, and more importantly, you wouldn't cause problems for anyone else." "Because if I did that, I'd eventually reach a limit. There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence. No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead." "Take, for example, a certain nun who suddenly turned up among the Burial Agency. Using the sabbath, she became a devil, and so obtained a sense for the higher dimensions, turning functionally almighty in ours. But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe. As for why―――" 'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate. Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life, what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world, but just how minuscule I was within it. What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?' 'As such, I remain here in this world. Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...' "Quite the silly story. As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before. Yet another example that drives home the limits of the individual. I wanted to know everything. Everything there is to know about this ever-expanding universe. As such, it was pertinent for me not to seek strength or happiness on an individual level, but instead a self that continues to exist until the end of the world." His desire contradicts itself. The world will continue to expand. He claims that he sought eternity in order to know everything, but that was doomed to be an endless journey from the start. If what he says is true――― That the world continues to expand and give birth to new things――― Then even if he were to live for an eternity, he could never fully know everything. "No, it is possible. It will definitely have a conclusion. I will definitely reach its conclusion. It is for that reason that we exist. We were born into this world in order to define the eternity that is this universe. If not, there would have been no reason for us to become intelligent. Even if the intelligent life born on this planet belongs to the past, and is far from understanding eternity, as long as the will persists, I shall continue to pursue this ever-changing voyage."

The highlight within the text is that Roa states that there is:

1. 'No end to the path toward omnipotence'
2. 'No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead'.

As an example to prove his point, he cites Kiara becoming a demon to reach a higher dimension and become omnipotent/almighty within the human dimensions, only to learn how insignificant she is within the Demonic Heavens.

The argument is that if reaching a higher dimension is considered a step within the unending path toward (true) omnipotence, and an example of levels of transcendence that has no upper ceiling, then this implies High 1-B cosmology within the verse.

True Demons which Kiara becomes in some timelines are stated to be higher dimensional beings in materials. Qualitative superiority between dimensions is currently accepted based on evidence compiled here and here.

opposition believes that the transcendence mentioned by Roa is not literal, and is contradicted by evidence shown in one of the scans.

Tally is currently:
Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa
Neutral: @Qawsedf234
Disagree: @Deagonx
I had put @Ultima_Reality in Agree, due to his comment in another thread where he directly stated that he agreed with one scan but not another, and later in this thread made a comment that made me think he had wanted his vote to be a solid agree. however, he is looking through more information right now and may change his vote. so until that is finalized, I've agreed to not have his vote listed yet.

 

[Deagonx]

Can each side of the arguments in this thread write an explanation post regarding what is being argued here exactly please?

Sure. The OP essentially revolves around a scan which says "There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level"

The argument is that these "higher levels" represent higher infinities of power and thus this statement describes a High 1-B structure, because later the character says "She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension."

However, I am not convinced that this scan is referring to qualititatively superior spatial dimensions and I do not believe that we have sufficient evidence to reach that conclusion. Moreover, another user pointed out that the same character also describes vampires as "transcendent" using the same word as in the OP's man scan, even though vampires are not qualitatively superior and weaker ones can even be killed by normal humans. In conclusion, I think it is likely referring to higher quantities of power, not QS layers.

The OP was also arguing that this High 1-B statement applied to the universe itself, but that appears to have been totally rejected, so the only remaining subject is whether the statement is High 1-B in the first place.

Myself, Firestorm808, and Qawsedf234 have argued against the OP. DDM is leaning towards agree, LordGriffin and Elizhaa agree, and Ultima is still reaching a final conclusion.

 

[KingNanaya]

DDM is leaning towards agree

DDM outright said he agreed

 

[Deagonx]

He said he was leaning towards agreeing, you asked him where he should be listed and he said "agree for now." I am describing his stance accurately by saying he's leaning towards agree, but this is really not necessary to nitpick in any way.

 

[KingNanaya]

The OP was also arguing that this High 1-B statement applied to the universe itself, but that appears to have been totally rejected

this is false. it was talked about, and evidence was given. 2 of the people that had problems with it didn't vote, even after more information was given to them.

 

[Deagonx]

Again, I'm not interested in going back and forth, I gave my summary of the situation as I see it because Ant asked me to.

 

[Qawsedf234]

but that makes even less sense, because that would just make any higher dimension not possible

Yes, which is why I'm saying that I don't think the quote is useable for this upgrade.

Though I made that before understanding the context of the word when used in Japanese media. So it's not as straightforward as I originally though.

True Demons which Kiara becomes in some timelines are stated to be higher dimensional beings in materials. Qualitative superiority between dimensions is currently accepted based on evidence compiled here and here.

It would indicate that a demon can only ever become some degree of 1-B at maximum. Guess it would indicate the prime cosmology might be High 1-B.

There's this temporarily closed staff thread about the Root's 1-A tier. Does that affect the "infinite dimensions" thing?

No, since in this case the Root would still be at the apex of this dimensional hierarchy, which is separate from the current justification for it being 1-A.

It became relevant as the claim was made that vampires are, themselves, higher-dimensional creatures which it appears there is no evidence for. This is relevant because the word "transcendent" was used for vampires by Roa, the exact same word in Japanese was used.

The word Roa uses is 超越 which is just exceed/suprass/transcend/etc. It's a context specific word that can mean a seemingly vast number of different things. To use examples I found in a dictionary:

香港要超越競爭 對手，須對整個中國的地理、語言、社會文化、政 經環境和發展潛力有更深入的瞭解。

To stay ahead of the race we must deepen our own understanding of our country, her geography, culture, language, political and economic environment, and development potential.

彼はぼんぞく凡俗をちょうえつ超越している

He rises above the rest of mankind.

深为关切世界许多地区的儿童状况受到世界金融危机和经济危机的负面影 响，重申消除贫穷继续是当今世界面临的最大全球性挑战，确认其影 响 超越 社 会、 经济范围

continues to be the greatest global challenge facing the world today, recognizing its impact beyond the socio-economic context

外在超越
outer transcendence (perfection through the agency of God)

Quite literally the word can mean "A dog's sense transcend a human" and "God transcends this universe" and both usages would be correct. So Roa can call a vampire transcendent and call, idk, Azathoth transcendent while using the same word and both usages can be correct.

 

[SweetDao]

Got permission from Deagonx to say a quick thing.

Though I made that before understanding the context of the word when used in Japanese media. So it's not as straightforward as I originally though.

The word Roa uses is 超越 which is just exceed/suprass/transcend/etc. It's a context specific word that can mean a seemingly vast number of different things. To use examples I found in a dictionary:

Roa's monologue exist in the normal ending too, and Kiara is not mentioned at all. The word transcendental has no link to Kiara, since his sentence can work perfectly without her. Despite her not being mentioned, the sentence has the same meaning AND STILL WORKS JUST FINE.

It's not because he takes Kiara as an example during the true ending that it changes the meaning of his sentence in the first place. Which is that "transcendental" doesn't solely refer to dimensionality, and certainly not regarding Kiara solely. The word itself just means superhuman/supernatural.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Which is that "transcendental" doesn't solely refer to dimensionality,

I know, that's why I provided examples of that kanji being used in various sentences. 超越 can mean that your budget went beyond projected, that someone has achieved a higher dimensional existence, that a cheetah can run faster than a human can or that global warming will cause effects beyond just economic ones. It's entirely context sensitive.

 

[SweetDao]

I know, that's why I provided examples of that kanji being used in various sentences. 超越 can mean that your budget went beyond projected, that someone has achieved a higher dimensional existence, that a cheetah can run faster than a human can or that global warming will cause effects beyond just economic ones. It's entirely context sensitive.

I agree with that, and saw it while browsing through the several iterations of that word. Point is, he used that word as a general "beyond things", which encompasses transcension over dimension as Kiara show it, but also more mundane things. It doesn't revolve around Kiara for the sentence to work. So thinking that every "steps" of transcendentality is a jump in dimensionality seems a stretch.

In any case, I'll wait for Ultima to come back and give his final opinion on the matter.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm siding with Deagonx here FRA.

 

[KingNanaya]

Sleeping. Will comment when awake.

 

[KingNanaya]

My terrible sleep schedule has allowed me to comment here less than 10 minutes later. So I'll respond to some quick stuff since I'm just waking up.

Though I made that before understanding the context of the word when used in Japanese media. So it's not as straightforward as I originally though.

all good. I got confused by that too a little bit, which is why I asked and got clarification with the conversation shown.

It would indicate that a demon can only ever become some degree of 1-B at maximum. Guess it would indicate the prime cosmology might be High 1-B.

yeah, that makes sense, as they are being "limited" by the universe and not able to surpass it.

The word Roa uses is 超越 which is just exceed/suprass/transcend/etc. It's a context specific word that can mean a seemingly vast number of different things. To use examples I found in a dictionary:

Quite literally the word can mean "A dog's sense transcend a human" and "God transcends this universe" and both usages would be correct. So Roa can call a vampire transcendent and call, idk, Azathoth transcendent while using the same word and both usages can be correct.

more about this, I don't even think the point matters. the topic of that conversation immortality and why he still considers their body "mortal" despite them being transcendent.

anyways, what would you say your vote is? so I can update my post with the updated tally.

Edit: I worded that wrong. I meant that overall, the way the word transcendent was used that one time doesn't matter, not what you were saying. I'm tired and can't type for my life. I may also be over analyzing it due to said tiredness, but just to be safe, I'm letting you know that I agree with you on that as well.

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[KingNanaya]

bump.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So thinking that every "steps" of transcendentality is a jump in dimensionality seems a stretch.

It means that every step is beyond the previous step, which when combined with other quotes can give Tier 1 ratings.

anyways, what would you say your vote is? so I can update my post with the updated tally.

I'm not against it I guess. So neutral.

 

[KingNanaya]

Tally is currently:
Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa
Neutral: @Qawsedf234
Disagree: @Deagonx @Firestorm808
I had put @Ultima_Reality in Agree, due to his comment in another thread where he directly stated that he agreed with one scan but not another, and later in this thread made a comment that made me think he had wanted his vote to be a solid agree. however, he is looking through more information right now and may change his vote. so until that is finalized, I've agreed to not have his vote listed yet.

I've updated the current vote

 

[Firestorm808]

Currently on disagree.

 

[KingNanaya]

Currently on disagree.

ok

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I also disagree for Deagonx's reasons.

 

[KingNanaya]

I also disagree for Deagonx's reasons.

I know

 

[KingNanaya]

SweetDao's sent me some information that appears to be pertinent to the topic of discussion, in private. I would hold off for a bit until I've gone through it. Hopefully it won't take too long.

bump

 

[KingNanaya]

bump

 

[KingNanaya]

bump. still waiting for Ultima

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

SweetDao's sent me some information that appears to be pertinent to the topic of discussion, in private. I would hold off for a bit until I've gone through it. Hopefully it won't take too long.

Progress?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP

 

[Antvasima]

Sure. The OP essentially revolves around a scan which says "There is no end to human perception, no end to the path to omnipotence. No matter how transcendent we become, there is always a higher level"

The argument is that these "higher levels" represent higher infinities of power and thus this statement describes a High 1-B structure, because later the character says "She says that she was demonized by Sabbat and gained higher dimensional senses that made her omnipotent in this dimension."

However, I am not convinced that this scan is referring to qualititatively superior spatial dimensions and I do not believe that we have sufficient evidence to reach that conclusion. Moreover, another user pointed out that the same character also describes vampires as "transcendent" using the same word as in the OP's man scan, even though vampires are not qualitatively superior and weaker ones can even be killed by normal humans. In conclusion, I think it is likely referring to higher quantities of power, not QS layers.

The OP was also arguing that this High 1-B statement applied to the universe itself, but that appears to have been totally rejected, so the only remaining subject is whether the statement is High 1-B in the first place.

Myself, Firestorm808, and Qawsedf234 have argued against the OP. DDM is leaning towards agree, LordGriffin and Elizhaa agree, and Ultima is still reaching a final conclusion.

Hmm. Deagonx seems to make sense to me here, but Qawsedf234 also made some good points.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

What do you think?

 

[KingNanaya]

gonna make a quick post before Ultima comments

another user pointed out that the same character also describes vampires as "transcendent" using the same word as in the OP's man scan, even though vampires are not qualitatively superior and weaker ones can even be killed by normal humans.

this has not happened

The OP was also arguing that this High 1-B statement applied to the universe itself, but that appears to have been totally rejected

this is not true

Also adding the vote count

Agree @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000
Disagree: @Deagonx @Firestorm808
Neutral: @Qawsedf234

 

[Deagonx]

It has. Kiritsugu killed many with a rocket launcher.

 

[KingNanaya]

It has. Kiritsugu killed many with a rocket launcher.

he killed ghouls, which are familiars.

 

[Deagonx]

Ghouls are a category of vampires, as my scans showed

 

[KingNanaya]

Ghouls are a category of vampires, as my scans showed

I've sent you plenty of scans saying otherwise in DMs

 

[Deagonx]

Vampire

term

A general term for those that suck human blood.
Refers specifically to the Dead Apostles, or those that have become bloodsuckers because of them.