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Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.

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Eficiente said:
Fair warning, as there have been too much memes and pointless comments here at random so far and it is a long thread, let's not do that anymore. I will delete future ones. Ok?
Click to expand...
I did propose that we should split the crt into different ones focusing on different parts of the profile to help stop confusion
 
Split a crt splits the work people need to put as there is stuff to do in both. It's harmless to do some things at a time, then finish that, and then move into the next. That only asks for patience.
 
ShionAH said:
Time Baby, Fords Statements about 2-A, Rip in other dimensions = Enough for possibly

Portal Feat, Shacktron = Enough for possibly

Possibly + Possibly = Likely/Straight up

Too much implication. I dont see how this is “Very unlikely”
Click to expand...
Ignoring how all of this is wrong, what even is the argument for the "Rip in other dimensions" not being wrong? Did I miss a comment?
 
Eficiente said:
  • "Time being absolutely related to the infinite timelines" is a non sequitur, it doesn't mean that for example destroying time would destroy the infinite timelines or that talking about existence would actually mean talking about time or the multiverse. You oversell what the relation is. What the page says is that they went outside of time and space, into a place between time and space, and that gave them a clairvoyant view on time and how alt. universes can be formed from there. There is no relation that matters here, it's not like all of this somehow exists inside of time, it's outside of time, right where one would expect this to be.
Click to expand...
My guy if Time Baby says that Bill is breaking the rules of the space-time and then says that the fabric of existence is gonna go boom, then I logically believe that time in itself has to get involved in this, if the literal guardian of time says so. Why are you making all of these assumptions, I am just going by the easiest interpretation here.
Eficiente said:
  • Minor, but the novel is non-canon minus "1 thing", the G12 blog claims this to be everything Axolotl-related, but this isn't necessarily true, it could just be the info on Bill we got and nothing more. Just to keep in mind on how we use it.
Click to expand...
The information on it is canon though, given that's non-canon just because of the many different endings, which could just mean is not canon to the main timeline, when many more exist.
Eficiente said:
I don't care about Dragon Ball Xenoverse. It's not the same, the Nightmare Realm is the space between all universes, not timelines. You don't even show proof of that, you just say it.

Beyond that, if the Nightmare Realm were to connect with all points in time, why do its wormholes that are what connects with other universes only connect with their present? And why can't Bill go to the point in time where the portal was opened to bring Ford back to his universe and use that to achieve his goal? He was going to but Ford outran him & his minions. Or you mean that it applies to the realm itself in a way that it can't be used? But then at that point what's the difference between that place connecting to timelines rather than universes and our universe being a universe rather than a timeline?
Click to expand...
1) It's how the wiki deals with such a big verse, you can't just ignore this and say "I don't care", when Dragon Ball is literally the verse that causes the most site-wide revisions.

2) The dimensions are definitely different space-times due to alternate versions of the main universe existing (which also explains my point about that book's canonicity)
Eficiente said:
That's excusatory. You know what also happens all the time in fiction? Characters being wrong or being hyperbolic. It's all context and common sense, and this is Ford being wrong or hyperbolic, not one of those cases where characters see/perceive infinite stuff.
Click to expand...
This is still not a counter to what I said. Again, by your logic tons of stuff would be downgraded because infinitely sized-universes/multiverses cannot be perceived from most of the characters making the infinite claims, which would need a site-wide revision. I don't see why only Gravity Falls needs this treatment, looks like you're going against the wiki's very policies just to fit your personal narrative.

An example of this is Chrono, where the multiverse being infinite was accepted off a human character saying there are infinite timelines.
Eficiente said:
Sure we do, just not always. Context is what matters, again, and here Bill at this state has very little to work with. This is all the contrary to verses where we would expect AP gaps to not be potrayed accurately the most, verses with impossibly long stories.
Click to expand...
This is about your personal expectations buddy. It's still a thing that happens in fiction kinda a lot, so don't put your conceptions on where it can happen and where it can't. It is what it is.
Eficiente said:
That's nonsense. Bill clearly uses a bigger size for himself and others to go better into confrontations, and even if he didn't that's standard by common sense with Size Manip. Bill can have those stats by growing himself that big, not at all times because he can grow another that big.
Click to expand...
He gave the power to the Hencemaniacs against Shackthrown despite not growing in size himself though. Plus we scale people from the power they give to other characters, so...
Eficiente said:
Infinite power can't be used like that. For Bill, it could mean anything.
Click to expand...
Sure but is supporting evidence if anything.
Eficiente said:
That can't be since you're not talking about range. That shaking takes place in the present, even if it were to affect all universes via the wormholes to them it has (which didn't happen), it would do so to them in the present, which is still a High 3-A shaking.
Click to expand...
I never said it isn't though. But it seems like you're saying that the NR is only High 3-A sized lmao.
Eficiente said:
That's like saying that if the King of Pizza says he wants to eat, logically he wants to eat pizza. There is no relation, only the one you made up.
Click to expand...
This is genuinely the most dishonest comparison I've ever saw what the hell. Time Baby's job is to protect the space-time, this kind of stuff is always related to cosmology things by default. I don't understand why this should be a debunk when he's pretty damn clear here about the implications at hand, counting the context.
 
StrymULTRA said:
My guy if Time Baby says that Bill is breaking the rules of the space-time and then says that the fabric of existence is gonna go boom, then I logically believe that time in itself has to get involved in this, if the literal guardian of time says so. Why are you making all of these assumptions, I am just going by the easiest interpretation here.

The information on it is canon though, given that's non-canon just because of the many different endings, which could just mean is not canon to the main timeline, when many more exist.

1) It's how the wiki deals with such a big verse, you can't just ignore this and say "I don't care", when Dragon Ball is literally the verse that causes the most site-wide revisions.

2) The dimensions are definitely different space-times due to alternate versions of the main universe existing (which also explains my point about that book's canonicity)

This is still not a counter to what I said. Again, by your logic tons of stuff would be downgraded because infinitely sized-universes/multiverses cannot be perceived from most of the characters making the infinite claims, which would need a site-wide revision. I don't see why only Gravity Falls needs this treatment, looks like you're going against the wiki's very policies just to fit your personal narrative.

An example of this is Chrono, where the multiverse being infinite was accepted off a human character saying there are infinite timelines.

This is about your personal expectations buddy. It's still a thing that happens in fiction kinda a lot, so don't put your conceptions on where it can happen and where it can't. It is what it is.

He gave the power to the Hencemaniacs against Shackthrown despite not growing in size himself though. Plus we scale people from the power they give to other characters, so...

Sure but is supporting evidence if anything.

I never said it isn't though. But it seems like you're saying that the NR is only High 3-A sized lmao.

This is genuinely the most dishonest comparison I've ever saw what the hell. Time Baby's job is to protect the space-time, this kind of stuff is always related to cosmology things by default. I don't understand why this should be a debunk when he's pretty damn clear here about the implications at hand, counting the context.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure the soldier in Time Baby scene also says time and space
 
StrymULTRA said:
My guy if Time Baby says that Bill is breaking the rules of the space-time
Click to expand...
You are the one to assume what breaking the rules of space-time refers to, destroying the universe in a 3-A way would already destroy time and space, just not all of time from its beginning to the end of time. Bill is already messing up space with his rift and is shown to have affected time, which is a better thing to assume than something new because that's something already shown. But really, we don't know what that refers to because it could be anything.
StrymULTRA said:
and then says that the fabric of existence is gonna go boom, then I logically believe that time in itself has to get involved in this
Click to expand...
The relation isn't implied as those don't need to be the same thing, and even then destroying the universe in a 3-A way would already destroy time and space, just not all of time from its beginning to the end of time.
StrymULTRA said:
if the literal guardian of time says so.
Click to expand...
You are the one to assume that that status has any indication on what he says here, he's already time travelling back to the past to do this, which is already time-related. This would not satisfy you.
StrymULTRA said:
Why are you making all of these assumptions, I am just going by the easiest interpretation here.
Click to expand...
I don't go with assumptions, I connect things logically, you went with assumptions over and over.
StrymULTRA said:
The information on it is canon though, given that's non-canon just because of the many different endings, which could just mean is not canon to the main timeline, when many more exist.
Click to expand...
Could be, yes, but it can also be that the "ENORMOUS canon secret" is the Bill stuff while everything leading up to it is BS for we to reach that. As in, the information isn't canon, they're a means to an end.
StrymULTRA said:
1) It's how the wiki deals with such a big verse, you can't just ignore this and say "I don't care", when Dragon Ball is literally the verse that causes the most site-wide revisions.
Click to expand...
That's a pretty bad understanding of what I said; You used a verse as an example and gave your reasons, I said that I don't care about that verse and gave my reasons against your reasons, therefore it doesn't matter how I don't care about Dragon Ball Xenoverse, you're just grabbing into something to have something to use. I also want to see you prove that's how things are in the wiki as explicitly as you can, otherwise you're just saying that.
StrymULTRA said:
2) The dimensions are definitely different space-times due to alternate versions of the main universe existing (which also explains my point about that book's canonicity)
Click to expand...
Again, you don't show to have any good understanding of what I said. Quote what makes you think I imply to not believe that dimensions wouldn't be different space-times like all dimensions/universes would be.

You don't reply to my argument at all.
StrymULTRA said:
This is still not a counter to what I said. Again, by your logic tons of stuff would be downgraded because infinitely sized-universes/multiverses cannot be perceived from most of the characters making the infinite claims, which would need a site-wide revision. I don't see why only Gravity Falls needs this treatment, looks like you're going against the wiki's very policies just to fit your personal narrative.

An example of this is Chrono, where the multiverse being infinite was accepted off a human character saying there are infinite timelines.
Click to expand...
I don't care about Chrono, and to take from what I said that I'm going against the wiki's very policies is a childish view on judging this one case of a character being wrong or hyperbolic.
StrymULTRA said:
This is about your personal expectations buddy. It's still a thing that happens in fiction kinda a lot, so don't put your conceptions on where it can happen and where it can't. It is what it is.
Click to expand...
Agree to disagree, this is nothing to work with.
StrymULTRA said:
He gave the power to the Hencemaniacs against Shackthrown despite not growing in size himself though.
Click to expand...
Yes, he did. That doesn't mean anything in terms of knowing if he scales to the max sizes he can make at his smallest.
StrymULTRA said:
Plus we scale people from the power they give to other characters, so...
Click to expand...
It's not the same. And we don't always do, in this context is a power that makes one bigger/more powerful.
StrymULTRA said:
Sure but is supporting evidence if anything.
Click to expand...
Sure.
StrymULTRA said:
I never said it isn't though. But it seems like you're saying that the NR is only High 3-A sized lmao.
Click to expand...
Please structure what you mean to say better, .
StrymULTRA said:
This is genuinely the most dishonest comparison I've ever saw what the hell.
Click to expand...
It's not meant to be a fair comparison, it's meant to get the point across, which it does more easily by being silly like that. You are not pointing out something new by saying how it's not even, you're saying something incredibly obvious.
StrymULTRA said:
Time Baby's job is to protect the space-time, this kind of stuff is always related to cosmology things by default. I don't understand why this should be a debunk when he's pretty damn clear here about the implications at hand, counting the context.
Click to expand...
See the point above about Time Baby, and we don't know much about how that works. This kind of stuff is not related to cosmology things by default, let alone always, you just made that up. It's a crazy thing to say.
 
Eficiente said:
You are the one to assume what breaking the rules of space-time refers to, destroying the universe in a 3-A way would already destroy time and space, just not all of time from its beginning to the end of time. Bill is already messing up space with his rift and is shown to have affected time, which is a better thing to assume than something new because that's something already shown. But really, we don't know what that refers to because it could be anything.
Click to expand...
No??? 3-A would destroy just one of the infinitesimal parts of it. Plus, I don't see why Time Baby would exclude time as part of the fabric of existence, given that fabric's very definition is the structure of something. I just don't see why he wouldn't include the whole of time, where the latter is part of existence as well.
Eficiente said:
You are the one to assume that that status has any indication on what he says here, he's already time travelling back to the past to do this, which is already time-related. This would not satisfy you.
Click to expand...
I don't understand this point? Are you saying that because they time traveled the destruction can't be Tier 2? Huuuh... you do know that happens in literally every fiction which has Tier 2 characters and time travel, right? You never see destruction of space-time in fiction taking in account the time travels happened in the series prior, as that would make the story extremely convoluted and no one ever thinks about it.

So I don't really get this whole point, really.
Eficiente said:
Could be, yes, but it can also be that the "ENORMOUS canon secret" is the Bill stuff while everything leading up to it is BS for we to reach that. As in, the information isn't canon, they're a means to an end.
Click to expand...
It is BS because the timelines are all fundamentally different from each other? Ford says so himself.
Eficiente said:
Again, you don't show to have any good understanding of what I said. Quote what makes you think I imply to not believe that dimensions wouldn't be different space-times like all dimensions/universes would be.
Click to expand...
I belived you were arguing for NR being just High 3-A/Low 2-C in size instead of 2-A here, if I read it correctly, given you're basically saying as if given NR is only in the present, it can't be 2-A sized. But this is just... overcomplicating things? I mean if the thing encompasses infinite space-times then it is just 2-A in size and that's it.
Eficiente said:
I don't care about Chrono, and to take from what I said that I'm going against the wiki's very policies is a childish view on judging this one case of a character being wrong or hyperbolic.
Click to expand...
I am only telling how stuff works because Chrono was the first example of what I meant. Fiction can indeed showcase characters with finite perceptions describing infinite stuff, it's up to you proving the negative and tell how Ford is wrong outside of "is an hyperbole because I want to."

Yourself have said you disagree with many things here but... isn't this basically enforcing Double Standards lmao? The wiki already suffers too much from this, and you're not helping here.
Eficiente said:
Yes, he did. That doesn't mean anything in terms of knowing if he scales to the max sizes he can make at his smallest.
Click to expand...
I was talking about this. He was granting extra power to them without growing in size himself.
Eficiente said:
It's not the same. And we don't always do, in this context is a power that makes one bigger/more powerful.
Click to expand...
I am saying that due to Bill still being the one who makes the character enlarge through just giving his power, he's not giving the power to enlarge one's self. I am seeing where you're coming from but I think is fair to argue Bill scales to the max size of the thing, given that he seems to enlarge himself due to simple convenience rather than simply empower himself.
Eficiente said:
See the point above about Time Baby, and we don't know much about how that works. This kind of stuff is not related to cosmology things by default, let alone always, you just made that up. It's a crazy thing to say.
Click to expand...
See the point above.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Fine.

I'll tell you that from since the very beginning I am advocating for only a "possibly 2-A", I never said it should be Bill's base tier, but 2-A has absolutely to get in there, given I think the narrative of the show definitely tells that Bill is more than just something Universal to be honest. But besides, let me start.

Honestly... I think you're kinda overthinking this too much. A 2-A will always be logically a threat to the universe, as it has to get involved in its destruction. Basically how the country is in danger if there's a planet buster in short, this is pretty much the same. None of these really are a big nope to Ford's claim about Bill being 2-A, as it's not like we have to be constantly spoonfed with "Bill will destroy the multiverse" constantly. We just got a statement of Bill being a threat to the multiverse + Time Baby saying that Bill will blow up the fabric of existence, with Time being absolutely related to the infinite timelines, saying that the "fabric of existence" is limited to a single timeline is just dumb and taking a veeeeeeery weird interpretation. Let's take Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse for example, the flow of time is something that exists across all the 2-A multiverse (as seen in the AP section for these two characters), the same is with Gravity Falls, where the Time Baby is the ruler of time, thus it would be logically be reffering to the multiverse here.

Plus Blendin was blatantly wrong. Bill did never destroy anything, he was merely panicking as he literally just ran away to the future and wrote stuff as in "he used my body for his plans of time travelling and destroy the universe!", but the latter never happened. He simply was wrong, and that's it.

Going again to Dragon Ball Xenoverse, the Nightmare Realm works exactly the same as the Crack of Time. If you see Mira's profile in the AP part, you'd see that we currently accept that Mira blowing up the CoT is 2-A, as it has to be 2-A sized at absolute least because of it being between all the timelines. After all, the entire reason why Low 2-C is so weaker than even baseline 2-C to the point that even an infinite multiplier of Low 2-C won't bring you to the the next tier is because of the distance between universes that makes the trick. It's why 2-C is a bigger deal, coz of it being physically bigger than 2-C right because of this range. So how would a Low 2-C sized realm be able to connect all the universes of the 2-A thing? Because it has to cover also the space between universes that makes 2-C greater than Low 2-C, let alone if you take it with infinitely more universes.

Alright, so this is just... stupid. It's a thing that happens all the time in fiction, with multiple characters seeing/perceiving infinite stuff despite having finite sensory, as otherwise we'd literally have to axe away over half of the High 3-A/2-A cosmologies here because of the characters describing those infinite sized realms being humans or still non-omniscient beings with finite perception.

This is literally you enforcing your own standard on how things work on this wiki. I don't know how this argument is even acceptable, given that you're essentially saying "how could Ford know this" when it's something that happens in literally every franchise ever?

To be fair, Bill was only just shocked due to him not being able to get past the barrier (given it's an Anti-Bill thing, literally), but then he found the Shacktron's weakness and dealt with it in a matter of few minutes. Yeah, he didn't one-shot, but this is fiction, we don't expect AP gaps to be potrayed accurately (otherwise for example Tier 2s wouldn't be able to hold back against Tier 3 and below because of them being literal infinities above them), plus it is indeed PIS as the narrative demanded Ford to build that circle and explain all of it. Obviously Stanley screwed it up making it meaningless to the end, but it was still a necessary thing to make that part of the story work.

Besides, I've calculated the Standford's stuff through size (as 4-A is just nonsense and even breaks our rules of Large Size Calculations) and I've got some neat stuff for the AP, LS and speed.

I think Bill should scale to those even without the size, as there's no reason why he should be inferior to the things he grants power to, as he literally is the one granting these stats in the 1st place.

But for his Tier, I think the thing should be "High 3-A, possibly 2-A", the portal shaking the NR is High 3-A at the absolute minimum indeed, with Bill being stated that he can destroy the universe multiple times and he claimed that he can give infinite power and has it himself anyways twice.

Possinly 2-A comes from the Time Baby's statement (plus what the details I've provided above) + Bill having indeed 2-A range for the portal, and he has still the intention of making the reality itself lawless, given his whole plan was to spill the NR in the "normal" dimensions, and Ford saying he is a threat right because of this. If the NR is something between all the universes, with the portal he scales from shaking all of it, then you can indeed argue that being 2-A as well.

Besides, I think I am done writing here, and I guess I'll just leave the staff to comment on my take.

EDIT: Apparentely Low 2-C is also argued as his base tier as Time Baby's statement would logically involve time too, given he's the ruler of space-time itself.

I don't mind it being its base tier either, I am neutral towards agreeing for it.
Click to expand...
This post looks good to me yes.
 
So the general accepted thing is either: High 3-A, Possibly 2-A or 2-A in general.

Should I wait longer for more stuff or just go with the first option?
 
ShionAH said:
So the general accepted thing is either: High 3-A, Possibly 2-A or 2-A in general.

Should I wait longer for more stuff or just go with the first option?
Click to expand...
Nah, Low 2-C is technically what's most agreed rn for the minimum. Idc which one gets between High 3-A and Low 2-C though.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Nah, Low 2-C is technically what's most agreed rn for the minimum. Idc which one gets between High 3-A and Low 2-C though.
Click to expand...
Maybe "High 3-A to Low 2-C, Possibly 2-A"

I think Low 2-C at the very base seems to be the best though
 
Having read through the justification on the blog, the argument against the change provided by Eficiente, and the arguments for the change provided by Strym and Phoenks, I'm willing to say I'd support possibly/likely 2-A.

I will note that the justification in the blog is quite wordy, and a lot of the information in it is unnecessary for establishing the case - I'd rather the published page cut down on the word count, but that's a tangential matter. More importantly, I don't find the case regarding the "fabric of existence" only denoting a single universe to be compelling. Nothing about referring to the fact that their universe will be destroyed inherently implies the impact will be limited entirely to that singular universe. If an action will destroy "the fabric of existence", and all universes are included under this label of "existence" (i.e.: they exist, which certainly appears to be the case), then we'd naturally assert that action would destroy all of them unless some evidence to the contrary was established. There doesn't appear to be any such evidence, and the added context of Bill already being established as a "threat to the multiverse" in the midst of this supports this interpretation. There's a small degree of ambiguity in the phrasing that would lead me to err away from considering this a decisive rating, but I've not been convinced that anything brought up contradicts the justification.
 
DarkGrath said:
Having read through the justification on the blog, the argument against the change provided by Eficiente, and the arguments for the change provided by Strym and Phoenks, I'm willing to say I'd support possibly/likely 2-A.

I will note that the justification in the blog is quite wordy, and a lot of the information in it is unnecessary for establishing the case - I'd rather the published page cut down on the word count, but that's a tangential matter. More importantly, I don't find the case regarding the "fabric of existence" only denoting a single universe to be compelling. Nothing about referring to the fact that their universe will be destroyed inherently implies the impact will be limited entirely to that singular universe. If an action will destroy "the fabric of existence", and all universes are included under this label of "existence" (i.e.: they exist, which certainly appears to be the case), then we'd naturally assert that action would destroy all of them unless some evidence to the contrary was established. There doesn't appear to be any such evidence, and the added context of Bill already being established as a "threat to the multiverse" in the midst of this supports this interpretation. There's a small degree of ambiguity in the phrasing that would lead me to err away from considering this a decisive rating, but I've not been convinced that anything brought up contradicts the justification.
Click to expand...
I'll work on an alternate wording if you wish then.
 
As said, I can compromise with a clean Low 2-C, possibly 2-A regardless of my disagreement with the latter half. So long as it's not treated as the base or most likely tier. And possibly is a lot more fitting than likely because there's a lot to dispute (and was disputed) on the side of it not being there.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
As said, I can compromise with a clean Low 2-C, possibly 2-A regardless of my disagreement with the latter half. So long as it's not treated as the base or most likely tier. And possibly is a lot more fitting than likely because there's a lot to dispute (and was disputed) on the side of it not being there.
Click to expand...
I mean that's fine but your opinion is factually wrong, possibly multi+ is the only way
 
Ayewale said:
Rip my arguments faded into the aether
Click to expand...
My apologies for the confusion - I did read your arguments, as Phoenks noted. I referenced those three posts in particular because Shion directed me to those three posts as a summary of the current points on the thread, but I had to read your posts to interpret Phoenks' in the first place.
 
I'm honestly surprised Bill's current profile doesn't have Immortality type 1 or even Longevity. He literally said he's been planning Weirdmageddon for over 1 trillion years. Anyway, I agree, although you could probably add type 2 and 3 immortality to this profile as well due to his regeneration
 
Spilxson2 said:
I'm honestly surprised Bill's current profile doesn't have Immortality type 1 or even Longevity. He literally said he's been planning Weirdmageddon for over 1 trillion years. Anyway, I agree, although you could probably add type 2 and 3 immortality to this profile as well due to his regeneration
Click to expand...
He has Immo 1 in his Mindscape form. All his hax from the first tab goes to the second tab
 
Spilxson2 said:
I'm honestly surprised Bill's current profile doesn't have Immortality type 1 or even Longevity. He literally said he's been planning Weirdmageddon for over 1 trillion years. Anyway, I agree, although you could probably add type 2 and 3 immortality to this profile as well due to his regeneration
Click to expand...
Oh, wait. I didn't read his physical form key. I'm stupid
 
Regarding the tiers, I think "Low 2-C, possibly 2-A" works after reading the main arguments.
 
Maybe "At least Low 2-C, likely 2-A" could work. Could he have Empowerment added to his abilities as well? I don't know if I remember this properly, but I think somewhere it said that during Weirdmageddon, Bill's power grows by the second
 
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