Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don’t think possibly higher works, since that would mean he has scales in between multi+ and uni+ which isn’t true, the possibly multi+ should work or just not be there

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

Furthermore, higher may also be used to denote a case where the character is possibly or likely a higher tier, but to what degree is not specified.

— Here

Unless I have misunderstood Ayawale's and Eficiente's points, I believe the situation fits the usage of these terms.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

My willingness to compromise is still up, but I see where Lephyr's conclusion comes from because 2-A remains extremely removed from any of Bill's showings. And all the reasoning behind it comes from concluding things from outside factors with a lot of room for argument (just take one look at this entire thread. This discussion lasting this long is your proof that there's no conclusive evidence) and other interpretations. I can't stress enough how high the leap we are talking about is here to be done without rock solid evidence.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't see the "but to what degree is not specified" part for Bill, like it can really only be those two

 

[StrymULTRA]

Unless I have misunderstood Ayawale's and Eficiente's points, I believe the situation fits the usage of these terms.

But the higher degree is specified lol. I don't see why the "blowing up the fabric of existence" when another canon source states that time flows in all the multiverse can mean just "higher than an universe but we don't know how much".

 

[Magicomethkuon]

But the higher degree is specified lol. I don't see why the "blowing up the fabric of existence" when another canon source states that time flows in all the multiverse can mean just "higher than an universe but we don't know how much".

On this one I'll have to argue, it's not specified to which extent and in these cases the lower end is accepted. It goes a long way to say that Bill was about to blow up endless universes according to the statement. Time Baby even uses this dimension which implies that he's referring to the current one. And we don't see that ever happen either, he says it could happen which means that even for that one universe there's sufficient time before its eventual destruction. I'll bring this to light one more time. Whenever we step into 2-A range, we find that Bill Cipher is lacking in every direction unless we start making conclusions on our own about many things, and make all of them conclusions of the high end interpretation. A process that I am very iffy about doing for Bill because and here we go right back to the start, his feats and many quotes all point right back to lower end whenever we look at them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

On this one I'll have to argue, it's not specified to which extent and in these cases the lower end is accepted. It goes a long way to say that Bill was about to blow up endless universes according to the statement. Time Baby even uses this dimension which implies that he's referring to the current one. And we don't see that ever happen either, he says it could happen which means that even for that one universe there's sufficient time before its eventual destruction. I'll bring this to light one more time. Whenever we step into 2-A range, we find that Bill Cipher is lacking in every direction unless we start making conclusions on our own about many things, and make all of them conclusions of the high end interpretation. A process that I am very iffy about doing for Bill because and here we go right back to the start, his feats and many quotes all point right back to lower end whenever we look at them.

• We don't know the higher end
• When Time Baby is the guardian of time which is 2-A ranged. Bill planned to use a 2-A sized realm for his plans and Ford told that he's a threat to the multiverse.

Please.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

• We don't know the higher end
• When Time Baby is the guardian of time which is 2-A ranged. Bill planned to use a 2-A sized realm for his plans and Ford told that he's a threat to the multiverse.

Please.

If range of knowledge is what's being brought into question here, that still doesn't turn his statement into grounds for saying that Bill Cipher is 2-A. Most of the statements surrounding Bill often referred to the current world or universe, Bill himself spoke of the current world enough times that I find it hard to believe Time Baby was hinting at immediate, total destruction of an infinite multiverse.

This brings us right back to energy sources and his glaring lack of feats with said plans. Being a threat to the multiverse was visited many times over. It's less of a leap to assume he can do it endlessly with his immortality and liberating worlds one at a time than it is to conclude that he'll flick all of reality out of existence with a pop. The written statement also say wider multiverse. The scale of the multiverse is set in stone but once we go past Low 2-C the scale of Bill being a threat to it and how has so many unknowns and variables up for grabs that 2-A doesn't fall into place without being lenient to his tiering every time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If range of knowledge is what's being brought into question here, that still doesn't turn his statement into grounds for saying that Bill Cipher is 2-A. Most of the statements surrounding Bill often referred to the current world or universe, Bill himself spoke of the current world enough times that I find it hard to believe Time Baby was hinting at immediate, total destruction of an infinite multiverse.

You're essentially repeating yourself. Statements of a single universe being threatened do not discard 2-A, given the main universe is in danger too if there's a literal 2-A destruction going on. This is like saying that Saitama and Garou shouldn't be 4-A because of the narration saying their battle threatened the solar system, but we know it's far more than just that.

This brings us right back to energy sources and his glaring lack of feats with said plans. Being a threat to the multiverse was visited many times over. It's less of a leap to assume he can do it endlessly with his immortality and liberating worlds one at a time than it is to conclude that he'll flick all of reality out of existence with a pop.

Why would it be? His goal was to make the entire reality lawless, I don't see why is "doing this one by one" being the only interpretation when he's showcased a lot of times to be able to use his 2-A range, so why he can't do that?. I get that is vague, but is not this vague as you're saying.

The scale of the multiverse is set in stone but the scale of Bill managing to destroy it has so many unknowns and variables up for grabs that the 2-A doesn't fall into place without being lenient to his tiering every time.

Time Baby is literally showcasing the stuff being destroyed with an explosion though. There's not "much unknowns and variables" when we see clearly how the destruction will happen.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

This brings us right back to energy sources and his glaring lack of feats with said plans. Being a threat to the multiverse was visited many times over. It's less of a leap to assume he can do it endlessly with his immortality and liberating worlds one at a time than it is to conclude that he'll flick all of reality out of existence with a pop. The written statement also say wider multiverse. The scale of the multiverse is set in stone but once we go past Low 2-C the scale of Bill being a threat to it and how has so many unknowns and variables up for grabs that 2-A doesn't fall into place without being lenient to his tiering every time.

Problem with this is if he was doing it one at a time to an infinite universe, then he wouldn’t threaten it, he’d just be a universal threat

 

[StrymULTRA]

Problem with this is if he was doing it one at a time to an infinite universe, then he wouldn’t threaten it, he’d just be a universal threat

Yeah. I think the whole "but is a threat to the multiverse just means he can go to whatever universe and destroy stuff as he pleases" is just a reach, if there are infinite universes, one by one means there'll be universes that will never be threatened.

Besides, there's a reason why we give High 3-A when shaking an infinite-sized realm and not Tier 4/lower tier 3.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

You're essentially repeating yourself. Statements of a single universe being threatened do not discard 2-A, given the main universe is in danger too if there's a literal 2-A destruction going on. This is like saying that Saitama and Garou shouldn't be 4-A because of the narration saying their battle threatened the solar system, but we know it's far more than just that.

Why would it be? His goal was to make the entire reality lawless, I don't see why is "doing this one by one" being the only interpretation when he's showcased a lot of times to be able to use his 2-A range, so why he can't do that?. I get that is vague, but is not this vague as you're saying.

Time Baby is literally showcasing the stuff being destroyed with an explosion though. There's not "much unknowns and variables" when we see clearly how the destruction will happen.

Saitama and Garou have feats to back up the tier higher than what the statement says they are doing. Which isn't the case for Bill Cipher. My problem with Bill isn't him having statements on their own. My problem is that the statements deeply extrapolate just about everything he has been shown to be capable of.

If Bill had anything to conclude 2-A, this CRT would have been much shorter as there would be no room for discussing whether or not he can be a 2-A. The crux of my argument is that we have a few statements that, under one given interpretation, would lead someone to conclude he may be 2-A. Then we have everything he has shown in the show, and the exact same statements pointing towards the direction that no, he's actually universal in power. It's very hard to accept.

Time Baby shows up and says the rip in this dimension may destroy the very fabric of existence. From here we have to evaluate the context, his words and what Bill has to conclude what the scene is telling us. Bill Cipher is currently being shown to be causing problems in this world. Time Baby says this world. He then shows an image blowing up that looks either like a universe or a galaxy surrounded by many stars. So we pick the consistent, safe end that he means the universe. When in doubt, lower end takes the standard. And there's a lot of room for doubt here.

Problem with this is if he was doing it one at a time to an infinite universe, then he wouldn’t threaten it, he’d just be a universal threat

Doing it one universe at a time when you are immortal means you are a threat to the wider multiverse as you can and will be ruining countless to endless universes, if you're set on doing it for eternity.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which isn't the case for Bill Cipher. My problem with Bill isn't him having statements on their own. My problem is that the statements deeply extrapolate just about everything he has been shown to be capable of.

No? They're not extrapolating anything, they're made from Ford, who was never showcased to be wrong in-verse about lore stuff.

If Bill had anything to conclude 2-A, this CRT would have been much shorter as there would be no room for discussing whether or not he can be a 2-A. The crux of my argument is that we have a few statements that, under one given interpretation, would lead someone to conclude he may be 2-A. Then we have everything he has shown in the show, and the exact same statements pointing towards the direction that no, he's actually universal in power. It's very hard to accept.

My guy, every controversial CRT is like this. The 2-B Undertale ratings took 3 threads to get fully accepted, each being 3+ pages long. So this "but is long" does not make sense.

Time Baby shows up and says the rip in this dimension may destroy the very fabric of existence. From here we have to evaluate the context, his words and what Bill has to conclude what the scene is telling us. Bill Cipher is currently being shown to be causing problems in this world. Time Baby says this world. He then shows an image blowing up that looks either like a universe or a galaxy surrounded by many stars. So we pick the consistent, safe end that he means the universe. When in doubt, lower end takes the standard. And there's a lot of room for doubt here.

You're ignoring the part where Time is indeed related to all the infinite universes though, and I used Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse as an example to be compared to.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Yeah. I think the whole "but is a threat to the multiverse just means he can go to whatever universe and destroy stuff as he pleases" is just a reach, if there are infinite universes, one by one means there'll be universes that will never be threatened.

Besides, there's a reason why we give High 3-A when shaking an infinite-sized realm and not Tier 4/lower tier 3.

His multiverse statements says wider multiverse. The burden of proof is always on proving higher tiers, granting Bill 2-A without conclusive evidence rather than playing through the safe interpretation that is consistent with his showings in the show would be more a case of reaching. This discussion happening at all is because Bill needs personal conclusions to get 2-A rather than solid ones from the show. And this has been addressed many times before, destroying universes over time still makes one a threat to the wider multiverse when character is immortal and can repeat the process ad infinitum.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Doing it one universe at a time when you are immortal means you are a threat to the wider multiverse as you can and will be ruining countless to endless universes, if you're set on doing it for eternity.

But again, your not threatening the multiverse if your doing it in a endless time, your threatening universes over and over again

 

[StrymULTRA]

His multiverse statements says wider multiverse. The burden of proof is always on proving higher tiers, granting Bill 2-A without conclusive evidence rather than playing through the safe interpretation that is consistent with his showings in the show would be more a case of reaching. This discussion happening at all is because Bill needs personal conclusions to get 2-A rather than solid ones from the show. And this has been addressed many times before, destroying universes over time still makes one a threat to the wider multiverse when character is immortal and can repeat the process ad infinitum.

Ok but you're still saying that only an infinitesimal portion of it is truly threatened, as he'll never destroy a considerable part of it.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Ok but you're still saying that only an infinitesimal portion of it is truly threatened, as he'll never destroy a considerable part of it.

Even if he spent 1 trillion googol years and destroyed a universe every plank instant, he isn’t threatening the multiverse

 

[StrymULTRA]

Even if he spent 1 trillion googol years and destroyed a universe every plank instant, he isn’t threatening the multiverse

Ye, that.

This is why affecting an infinite sized thing is always that tier no matter what, because otherwise you're doing so with only an infinitesimal part of it, which is not affecting.

Besides I'll stop replying rn coz is getting tiring anyway.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

No? They're not extrapolating anything, they're made from Ford, who was never showcased to be wrong in-verse about lore stuff.

My guy, every controversial CRT is like this. The 2-B Undertale ratings took 3 threads to get fully accepted, each being 3+ pages long. So this "but is long" does not make sense.

You're ignoring the part where Time is indeed related to all the infinite universes though, and I used Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse as an example to be compared to.

Problem is that in this case it's his word against what the show is showing me, which is Bill with power that makes a 2-A interpretation seem highly exaggerated. So unless I want to contradict the show, either Ford is wrong or the interpretation of his statements that would put Bill at that level of power is.
Sorry if it looked that way but my argument is not the thread being long. It's the glaring lack of evidence on Bill's part to seal the deal.
On the third part, I'd have to ignore all other context of the scene to take instead the interpretation of But time refers to infinite universes so I should not take into account anything being shown or said here. It would be an arbitrary high-end conclusion to make based on what I assume should be the case rather than what the show shows me is the case.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But nothing in the show says that Bill straight up can't affect the whole multiverse at once?

This seems more just your personal view than an objective debunk to be honest.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Even if he spent 1 trillion googol years and destroyed a universe every plank instant, he isn’t threatening the multiverse

Except he is? Why should we take a threat to the wider multiverse statement as that means he can destroy infinite universes! when doing it one at a time still means infinite universes will be destroyed as he's doing it for eternity? These lines of thinking are exactly what I mean with 2-A Bill only working if we always give him the highest end interpretation every time something is up for grabs.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

But nothing in the show says that Bill straight up can't affect the whole multiverse at once?

This seems more just your personal view than an objective debunk to be honest.

Burden of Proof lies on proving a character can do something. Not on proving they can not. Ergo I don't need to debunk 2-A Bill because it was never proven in the first place. And here we are talking about proving Bill can do something infinitely greater than anything he has shown himself capable of.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean, the feat is there, Bill is threatening an infinite multiverse without infinite speed, so he must be 2-A
You're really just saying that Bill threatening the multiverse is an outlier

 

[StrymULTRA]

Burden of Proof lies on proving a character can do something. Not on proving they can not. Ergo I don't need to debunk 2-A Bill because it was never proven in the first place. And here we are talking about proving Bill can do something infinitely greater than anything he has shown himself capable of.

This is genuinely just argument from incredulity for real...

"He didn't do it so he can't!" please, by your logic we should discard every statement just because it does not have a feat, like Mira's 2-A rating or Heaven DIO's Low 2-C one. You can't just say "but the characters are wrong because it's not proven to be true!", because by your logic we should axe a good chunk of tiers just because the statements are not supported from the feats despite the lore supporting it.

This is unironically the "statements don't matter unless proven from feats" thing that should have been dead and buried years ago.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Except he is? Why should we take a threat to the wider multiverse statement as that means he can destroy infinite universes! when doing it one at a time still means infinite universes will be destroyed as he's doing it for eternity? These lines of thinking are exactly what I mean with 2-A Bill only working if we always give him the highest end interpretation every time something is up for grabs.

Eternity means to go on forever, as in never ending, he isn’t going finish destroying the multiverse.

if you had an infinite planet and a guy who could live forever would be be able to run to the end? No!!! It’s the same with bill, no matter how long he spends, he isn’t going to threaten the multiverse because being able to do something for eternity doesn’t mean they’d be able to finish

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I looked into it but there is a complete lack of context, more context is needed and I think it's a masturbation

Did you read the thread entirely or just the post? Also what lack of context?

 

[Magicomethkuon]

This is genuinely just argument from incredulity for real...

"He didn't do it so he can't!" please, by your logic we should discard every statement just because it does not have a feat, like Mira's 2-A rating or Heaven DIO's Low 2-C one. You can't just say "but the characters are wrong because it's not proven to be true!", because by your logic we should axe a good chunk of tiers just because the statements are not supported from the feats despite the lore supporting it.

This is unironically the "statements don't matter unless proven from feats" thing that should have been dead and buried years ago.

Argument from incredulity that I don't think a character with vague 2-A evidence shouldn't get a rating several infinities above his current one, when many other users had similar doubts and all evidence brought so far is inconclusive. Well, I'll be damned.
We can talk about Mira or Heaven Ascension DIO and if I agree or not with their ratings if we are in a thread surrounding them in the future. This is about Bill Cipher's context and tiers.
This is not statements not mattering. This is his statements being just as easy to see as a Low 2-C tier if we just tweak the interpretation some, and then when we look at his context and showings they all fall into place so much more with the lower end than the high end that 2-A only happens if we are lenient in every sense of the word with his tiering. That is not the usual scrutiny that this forum gauges characters with at all. Especially for a tier as high as 2-A.

 

[ShionAH]

Idk man saying Bill is less than 2-A contradicts his plot imo.

I think everyone made their points. We should wait for more staff

 

[StrymULTRA]

We can talk about Mira or Heaven Ascension DIO and if I agree or not with their ratings if we are in a thread surrounding them in the future. This is about Bill Cipher's context and tiers.

No no no no. It's literally how we treat things. Statements are used as long as they're not contradicted from context/anti-feats which oppose them, but in this case you're using the "it didn't happen" thing as a contradiction, which is just not how the thing works, especially here.

This literally sounds like the Goku vs Beerus feat being "debunked" because of the good old "but the universe was fine so Goku and Beerus weren't destroying anything" stuff all over again.

This is not statements not mattering. This is his statements being just as easy to see as a Low 2-C tier if we just tweak the interpretation some, and then when we look at his context and showings they all fall into place so much more with the lower end than the high end that 2-A only happens if we are lenient in every sense of the word with his tiering. That is not the usual scrutiny that this forum gauges characters with at all. Especially for a tier as high as 2-A.

You know that this is why "possibly" ratings exist, right?

 

[Ayewale]

The rift is a portal, and it was also literally created from the original portal.

But how does that equate to them being the same? The interdimensional rift is an accidental byproduct of the portal, but there's straight up nothing suggesting that they'd have the same power.

— Here

Unless I have misunderstood Ayawale's and Eficiente's points, I believe the situation fits the usage of these terms.

Hm.

Likely: "The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be favourable."

Possibly: "The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild."

I can see the vision behind a 'Possibly' rating but I think the main two arguments narrowed down for 2-A Bill aren't really notable as much as they are incorrect. We don't use the "notable, but mild" principle unless it's for ratings that would legitimately be impossible to just completely throw away, but I don't feel like that for 2-A Bill at all.

The main arguments come down to Shacktron scaling and Portal scaling, both of which are pretty definitively flawed. I've talked to death about the former, and the latter relies entirely on the completely unfounded assumption that the Rift's AP = Portal. Which there is objectively no evidence for lol. And the supporting evidence for both of these are all pretty vague as well, requiring you to use high-ends to even qualify them as a backup argument.

If "Extremely unlikely" was a rating then sure? But there's lots of characters with 'potential' arguments to be higher than got shut down because they were too much of a highball even for a Possibly. This strikes me as that. There's nothing absolutely concrete that this argument is based off: like stated earlier, it's assumptions stacked upon assumptions. Admittedly, some of the assumptions aren't too outlandish (the portal being 2-A is pretty good, and Time Baby referring to a multiverse is possible enough to be noted) but most aren't.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Eternity means to go on forever, as in never ending, he isn’t going finish destroying the multiverse.

if you had an infinite planet and a guy who could live forever would be be able to run to the end? No!!! It’s the same with bill, no matter how long he spends, he isn’t going to threaten the multiverse because being able to do something for eternity doesn’t mean they’d be able to finish

This a case of different semantic understanding. But the whole crux of this arguing is that one side believes he can be a threat to the wider multiverse by repeating the process for eternity one at a time while the other believes that it only counts if you can destroy an infinity of them at once. I'm the former because this isn't about reaching a finishing line, it's about being a threat that will never cease and endlessly expand across the multiverse. You think that does not count and would only matter if he could do it all at once or eventually reach a finish line. But I agree with that other user who says we exhausted everything we could say by now. It's clear we should agree to disagree and see what others also say.

 

[Ayewale]

You know that this is why "possibly" ratings exist, right?

I dunno about the rest of the argument but the Possibly ratings on the wiki still need a bit of indisputable basis otherwise they just get rejected. If I had to put it in arbitrary numbers, Likely feels like it's supposed to be about a 60-80% chance to be true; Possibly is 30-59%. 2-A Bill relies on a looot more assumptions than any Possibly rating I know of.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Admittedly, some of the assumptions aren't too outlandish (the portal being 2-A is pretty good, and Time Baby referring to a multiverse is possible enough to be noted) but most aren't.

strym made a reply btw

 

[StrymULTRA]

If "Extremely unlikely" was a rating then sure? But there's lots of characters with 'potential' arguments to be higher than got shut down because they were too much of a highball even for a Possibly. This strikes me as that. There's nothing absolutely concrete that this argument is based off: like stated earlier, it's assumptions stacked upon assumptions. Admittedly, some of the assumptions aren't too outlandish (the portal being 2-A is pretty good, and Time Baby referring to a multiverse is possible enough to be noted) but most aren't.

In fact I am not using the portal nor Shacktron here, but just the thing that Time Baby might be reffering to the multiverse as time in GF is also all the timelines, similairly to how DBH/X is.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

This a case of different semantic understanding. But the whole crux of this arguing is that one side believes he can be a threat to the wider multiverse by repeating the process for eternity one at a time while the other believes that it only counts if you can destroy an infinity of them at once. I'm the former because this isn't about reaching a finishing line, it's about being a threat that will never cease and endlessly expand across the multiverse. You think that does not count and would only matter if he could do it all at once or eventually reach a finish line. But I agree with that other user who says we exhausted everything we could say by now. It's clear we should agree to disagree and see what others also say.

Except the problem is that it isn’t going to expand. A nuke that can grow to no end isnt going to eclipse an infinite universe overtime since it would have to have infinite speed which bill has no mention of having, it’s just kinda misunderstanding what going on for infinity and doinng something to an infinity is

 

[Magicomethkuon]

No no no no. It's literally how we treat things. Statements are used as long as they're not contradicted from context/anti-feats which oppose them, but in this case you're using the "it didn't happen" thing as a contradiction, which is just not how the thing works, especially here.

This literally sounds like the Goku vs Beerus feat being "debunked" because of the good old "but the universe was fine so Goku and Beerus weren't destroying anything" stuff all over again.

You know that this is why "possibly" ratings exist, right?

Maybe. As I have agreed above, it's evident that we aren't going to agree on the part of 2-A and we are more revisiting prior arguments we already made than bringing new ones so I'll agree to disagree and wait to see further word from others. And thank you for the time of your saturday, I'm glad we could talk about this in-depth for a long time, regardless of what tier Bill gets in the end.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Except the problem is that it isn’t going to expand. A nuke that can grow to no end isnt going to eclipse an infinite universe overtime since it would have to have infinite speed which bill has no mention of having, it’s just kinda misunderstanding what going on for infinity and doinng something to an infinity is

If you repeat a process of ruining one universe for all of eternity, you are a threat to the wider multiverse because it's virtually impossible to count how many universes you will destroy and it's also an endless process. You simply aren't accepting this interpretation. If Bill had showings more in line with multiversal power I would take yours over this but I just can not. Also I see no reason to assume that threat to the multiverse is supposed to mean a threat of destruction to endless universes. Even further, wider can mean a larger portion of something, not even all of it. Like considering the wider world, a wider context. Bill being a threat to the wider multiverse could mean any higher fraction of it than the one Ford comes from.

 

[ShionAH]

Time Baby, Fords Statements about 2-A, Rip in other dimensions = Enough for possibly

Portal Feat, Shacktron = Enough for possibly

Possibly + Possibly = Likely/Straight up

Too much implication. I dont see how this is “Very unlikely”

 

[Cyberblader90]

Agree with possibly 2-a

 

[Eficiente]

I feel like Bill only being 3-A is just...very weird in the shows plot.

If he was really 3-A then Time Baby would have said "The very fabric of the universe" because they never use the word "existence"

We also have Ford saying Bill is a multiversal threat twice which on its own can be "Uhh he will conquer and cause chaos in universes" but since there are infinite universes Bill would not really be a threat to the multiverse.

This logic is very terrible. Lucky someone went over this already.

.

Blendin was simply... wrong here. Because he only said "Bill used my body to time travel and destroy the universe!", with the latter being false because the universe was never destroyed to begin with. I just don't understand how did it even accepted lol.

What that guy said.

We're given the context of the deal Bill used to possess Blendin, Blendin wanted Time Baby to not bother him, Bill "does his end of the bargain by destroying everything, even Time Baby". Blendin is a time traveller, he f*cked off into the future the last time we saw him, as he saw things the universe & Time Baby were destroyed, so Time Baby never bothered him again. Until Bill got defeated and everything was fixed, and the universe was never destroyed. The point being that this is how Bill wanted to left things at the end of the day, even if he couldn't achieve it.

Alternative, it does put a verb in past before saying "and destroy the universe", meaning that it's not necessarily saying that it already destroyed the universe, but that that "would happen", and only the verb in past is something that already happened.

Many characters here scale to the engines/objects that power them even though it's not demonstrated what you said. You're just being picky with Bill and not seeing the most obvious and logical thing in the world, the portal produces a level of energy capable of shaking the universe/an infinite realm simply by activating (and it should be comparable to the rift, since the rift originated from the portal), if a machine is being powered by that, it must scale to that energy, or the machine would explode from not being able to handle that energy. You are saying that the Shacktron has a motor that when activated produces 3-A/Low 2-C/2-A energy but it only has it there as decoration.

At this point, I don't care if Bill is 3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-A, but that should definitely scale to his physical stats.

I disagree with the stats of many profiles here and I encourage everyone to do so as well if they're confident at it. Among things I disagree with there are a number of things that are similar, and might be imitated standards. There have been precedent of those being tackled as a whole for the whole wiki to change many times. When tackling just 1 verse with this, you're not supposed to grab onto what other profiles do, just what makes the most sense, like with all things. Now idk if you go with what makes the most sense, it more so seems like you use excusatory logic to the point where you see me as being picky with Bill w/o seeing how unfounded that is. Can you explain why you see as the most obvious and logical thing in the world to use your standards over engines/objects used to power other things over how I gave mine?

You don't reply to the points made against that.

I'll tell you that from since the very beginning I am advocating for only a "possibly 2-A", I never said it should be Bill's base tier, but 2-A has absolutely to get in there, given I think the narrative of the show definitely tells that Bill is more than just something Universal to be honest. But besides, let me start.

Ok that you believe that.

Honestly... I think you're kinda overthinking this too much.

One can easily say that while thinking they're right and another is wrong, but that's not really a meaningful argument.

A 2-A will always be logically a threat to the universe, as it has to get involved in its destruction. Basically how the country is in danger if there's a planet buster in short, this is pretty much the same. None of these really are a big nope to Ford's claim about Bill being 2-A, as it's not like we have to be constantly spoonfed with "Bill will destroy the multiverse" constantly.

This goes on the premise that 2-A is legit in the first place, see the point below.

We just got a statement of Bill being a threat to the multiverse + Time Baby saying that Bill will blow up the fabric of existence, with Time being absolutely related to the infinite timelines, saying that the "fabric of existence" is limited to a single timeline is just dumb and taking a veeeeeeery weird interpretation. Let's take Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse for example, the flow of time is something that exists across all the 2-A multiverse (as seen in the AP section for these two characters), the same is with Gravity Falls, where the Time Baby is the ruler of time, thus it would be logically be reffering to the multiverse here.

• As shown before, there is no ref of existence referring to anything other than the universe, so the jumping into "Time" being related like that is wrong.
• "Time being absolutely related to the infinite timelines" is a non sequitur, it doesn't mean that for example destroying time would destroy the infinite timelines or that talking about existence would actually mean talking about time or the multiverse. You oversell what the relation is. What the page says is that they went outside of time and space, into a place between time and space, and that gave them a clairvoyant view on time and how alt. universes can be formed from there. There is no relation that matters here, it's not like all of this somehow exists inside of time, it's outside of time, right where one would expect this to be.
• Minor, but the novel is non-canon minus "1 thing", the G12 blog claims this to be everything Axolotl-related, but this isn't necessarily true, it could just be the info on Bill we got and nothing more. Just to keep in mind on how we use it.
• The flow of time is not something that exists across all the 2-A multiverse, the end of the universe is the end of time as the universe is time & space, the space between universes lacks time, and all universes have their own time. You misread the scan above.
• Time Baby being the ruler of time is a non sequitur, you can't use it to get a point if it doesn't mean anything to your point.

Plus Blendin was blatantly wrong. Bill did never destroy anything, he was merely panicking as he literally just ran away to the future and wrote stuff as in "he used my body for his plans of time travelling and destroy the universe!", but the latter never happened. He simply was wrong, and that's it.

See further above in this comment about that.

Going again to Dragon Ball Xenoverse, the Nightmare Realm works exactly the same as the Crack of Time. If you see Mira's profile in the AP part, you'd see that we currently accept that Mira blowing up the CoT is 2-A, as it has to be 2-A sized at absolute least because of it being between all the timelines.

I don't care about Dragon Ball Xenoverse. It's not the same, the Nightmare Realm is the space between all universes, not timelines. You don't even show proof of that, you just say it.

Beyond that, if the Nightmare Realm were to connect with all points in time, why do its wormholes that are what connects with other universes only connect with their present? And why can't Bill go to the point in time where the portal was opened to bring Ford back to his universe and use that to achieve his goal? He was going to but Ford outran him & his minions. Or you mean that it applies to the realm itself in a way that it can't be used? But then at that point what's the difference between that place connecting to timelines rather than universes and our universe being a universe rather than a timeline?

Alright, so this is just... stupid. It's a thing that happens all the time in fiction, with multiple characters seeing/perceiving infinite stuff despite having finite sensory, as otherwise we'd literally have to axe away over half of the High 3-A/2-A cosmologies here because of the characters describing those infinite sized realms being humans or still non-omniscient beings with finite perception.

This is literally you enforcing your own standard on how things work on this wiki. I don't know how this argument is even acceptable, given that you're essentially saying "how could Ford know this" when it's something that happens in literally every franchise ever?

That's excusatory. You know what also happens all the time in fiction? Characters being wrong or being hyperbolic. It's all context and common sense, and this is Ford being wrong or hyperbolic, not one of those cases where characters see/perceive infinite stuff.

Yeah, he didn't one-shot, but this is fiction, we don't expect AP gaps to be potrayed accurately

Sure we do, just not always. Context is what matters, again, and here Bill at this state has very little to work with. This is all the contrary to verses where we would expect AP gaps to not be potrayed accurately the most, verses with impossibly long stories.

(otherwise for example Tier 2s wouldn't be able to hold back against Tier 3 and below because of them being literal infinities above them)

No, they can hold back infinities below their full power, as proven when it's explicit that they hold back+show their power in that state to be limited. It's that simple. You appeal to the ridiculousness of it, which holds some truth, but not as much as you imply.

plus it is indeed PIS as the narrative demanded Ford to build that circle and explain all of it. Obviously Stanley screwed it up making it meaningless to the end, but it was still a necessary thing to make that part of the story work.

Saying how the plot is helped by the thing that one claims is PIS is an argument, it doesn't mean you prove anything on its own, that's on the rest of your point to be definitive on how impossible the event must have been for we to ignore part of the story. So, it's a neutral point.

Besides, I've calculated the Standford's stuff through size (as 4-A is just nonsense and even breaks our rules of Large Size Calculations) and I've got some neat stuff for the AP, LS and speed.

Math is not my area but if it's correct then good for that.

I think Bill should scale to those even without the size, as there's no reason why he should be inferior to the things he grants power to, as he literally is the one granting these stats in the 1st place.

That's nonsense. Bill clearly uses a bigger size for himself and others to go better into confrontations, and even if he didn't that's standard by common sense with Size Manip. Bill can have those stats by growing himself that big, not at all times because he can grow another that big.

the portal shaking the NR is High 3-A at the absolute minimum indeed

See above all the other arguments on how this doesn't scale to Bill.

he claimed that he can give infinite power and has it himself anyways twice.

Infinite power can't be used like that. For Bill, it could mean anything.

If the NR is something between all the universes, with the portal he scales from shaking all of it, then you can indeed argue that being 2-A as well.

That can't be since you're not talking about range. That shaking takes place in the present, even if it were to affect all universes via the wormholes to them it has (which didn't happen), it would do so to them in the present, which is still a High 3-A shaking.

EDIT: Apparentely Low 2-C is also argued as his base tier as Time Baby's statement would logically involve time too, given he's the ruler of space-time itself.

That's like saying that if the King of Pizza says he wants to eat, logically he wants to eat pizza. There is no relation, only the one you made up.

 

[Eficiente]

Fair warning, as there have been too much memes and pointless comments here at random so far and it is a long thread, let's not do that anymore. I will delete future ones. Ok?