• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Also why are we bringing up "2-A" shacktron, we should talk about that at the end when we finish the actual tier and reasoning for bill in the first place
 
ShionAH said:
If he was really 3-A then Time Baby would have said "The very fabric of the universe" because they never use the word "existence"
Click to expand...
We already had this debate but on its' own existence could refer to either the universe or the multiverse.
ShionAH said:
We also have Ford saying Bill is a multiversal threat twice which on its own can be "Uhh he will conquer and cause chaos in universes" but since there are infinite universes Bill would not really be a threat to the multiverse.
Click to expand...
This is incredibly erroneous logic though. Being a threat to something only means that you possess some level of danger or potential to damage. That's why we almost never use it for scaling, because you can threaten things a lot bigger than you actually destroy pretty easily. Bill is effectively immortal, meaning that his rampage throughout the multiverse would go on forever, destroying an untold number of dimensions. This is WAY more than enough to be considered a threat; he doesn't need to be literally capable of destroying the entire thing to qualify for this.

(Again, he wouldn't be the one destroying it either, too: it'd be the Nightmare Realm's lawless nature.)
 
Ayewale said:
We already had this debate but on its' own existence could refer to either the universe or the multiverse.
Click to expand...
This is true and I agree, expect since the other feats imply this thing is a threat to the multiverse makes it more likely that Time Baby is talking about the multiverse added by the fact that rift shakes a 2-A place. All of this makes me lean over to "multivers" rather than "universe"
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Things can be powered by higher sources without scaling to their full potential, especially in fiction. Androids in DBZ aren't given High 3-A because they have an unlimited energy source in their core. He-Man is powered by Castle Grayskull but we don't give him the highest rating it has based on that statement and nothing else.
Click to expand...
This is how it works in real life, if a machine receives more energy than it can handle, it will explode or at least break, if in a fictional series it doesn't work like that, that's just the logic within that series.

The Shacktron doesn't have any anti-feat that says it couldn't actually be Low 2-C/2-A.

Anyway, I'm fine with "Low 2-C, possibly 2-A", I think that's what makes the most sense for now.
 
TheShape03 said:
any characters here scale to the engines/objects that power them even though it's not demonstrated what you said. You're just being picky with Bill and not seeing the most obvious and logical thing in the world, the portal produces a level of energy capable of shaking the universe/an infinite realm simply by activating (and it should be comparable to the rift, since the rift originated from the portal), if a machine is being powered by that, it must scale to that energy, or the machine would explode from not being able to handle that energy.
Click to expand...
He's not being picky, you're just making a false equivalence here. A Chaos Emerald powering up characters is literally a transformation for those characters, it is so far removed from this example that it's basically a worthless comparison. The Arc Reactor is the direct source for most of Iron Man's attacks, so sharing a reactor would give them similar ratings by default.

And the Shacktron isn't "being powered" by the Portal, nor is it using the Portal's energy. The only quote about it is that they reused some (not all, some) of it's parts in a vague unspecified way to create a power source. That isn't remotely good enough for scaling.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Yeah, I just have having some stuff irl but I'll be here soon, don't worry.

Don't you dare do something weird in my absence.
Click to expand...
7zdei0.jpg
 
Ayewale said:
A Chaos Emerald powering up characters is literally a transformation for those characters, it is so far removed from this example that it's basically a worthless comparison.
Click to expand...
Nah, most lads scaling to Chaos Emerald just drop it after being defeated, at least in the Classic Era
 
ShionAH said:
This is true and I agree, expect since the other feats imply this thing is a threat to the multiverse makes it more likely that Time Baby is talking about the multiverse added by the fact that rift shakes a 2-A place. All of this makes me lean over to "multivers" rather than "universe"
Click to expand...
The rift does not shake a 2-A place. The portal does that, sure, but there's nothing suggesting the Rift and the Portal had the same power. Or are really similar at all lol.

The 'implied threat to the multiverse' almost certainly revolves around Bill traveling through it.
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
Nah, most lads scaling to Chaos Emerald just drop it after being defeated, at least in the Classic Era
Click to expand...
Then it'd be closer to Power Bestowal or something equivalent to giving someone your ki/chakra. Still entirely inapplicable for the Shacktron.
ShionAH said:
The same portal used in Shacktron right? Yeah that one.
Click to expand...
Are you confusing arguments? I was talking about how people equivocate the rift to the portal, and then you switched to talking about the Shacktron. In any case:
Ayewale said:
And the Shacktron isn't "being powered" by the Portal, nor is it using the Portal's energy. The only quote about it is that they reused some (not all, some) of it's parts in a vague unspecified way to create a power source. That isn't remotely good enough for scaling.
Click to expand...


Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Wouldn’t he have to have infinite speed to conquer the multiverse…
Click to expand...
When did Bill ever want to conquer the multiverse? That's not his goal. And I never said it was either.
 
TheShape03 said:
This is how it works in real life, if a machine receives more energy than it can handle, it will explode or at least break, if in a fictional series it doesn't work like that, that's just the logic within that series.

The Shacktron doesn't have any anti-feat that says it couldn't actually be Low 2-C/2-A.

Anyway, I'm fine with "Low 2-C, possibly 2-A", I think that's what makes the most sense for now.
Click to expand...
The problem is that fiction seldom works like that. There's an immense leap in tier at work here, in the order of infinite universes for the Shacktron. I bring the examples before up once more. Androids in DBZ aren't given infinite durability because they don't explode from having an infinite energy reactor powering them up. Their feats don't match that level of power, and they are what we use. Nothing in GF says or hints that the Shacktron is getting an infinite supply of power for each blow, it's even more reach to say that it is handling an infinite amount of universal energy from endless universes every second. No one in the show states that is what happening in any shape or form. Nothing from its blows even hints at that level of power. We can not just see the portal as a part and assume this must mean 2-A power is at work. It is very vague and limited basis to grant a tier orders of infinity higher than anything in the show would otherwise get.
 
A character using an energy source several tiers above should work as supporting evidence to showings and statements, not take priority over all showings and statements, disqualifying contradictions. If showings and statements are lesser than the source, the only logical conclusion is that the character draws some power from it but not to its full extent. This is the case for the Shacktron.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Isn’t that specifically why threatens the multiverse was rejected along with him supposedly having dimensional travel on his note?
Click to expand...
Dimensional Travel was rejected because he needs the rift to do that (at least in his physical form).

Threaten the multiverse wasn't really 'rejected', we just concluded that it was very likely referring to Bill...doing what I mentioned above.
Ayewale said:
Being a threat to something only means that you possess some level of danger or potential to damage. That's why we almost never use it for scaling, because you can threaten things a lot bigger than you actually destroy pretty easily. Bill is effectively immortal, meaning that his rampage throughout the multiverse would go on forever, destroying an untold number of dimensions. This is WAY more than enough to be considered a threat; he doesn't need to be literally capable of destroying the entire thing to qualify for this.

(Again, he wouldn't be the one destroying it either, too: it'd be the Nightmare Realm's lawless nature.)
Click to expand...
 
ShionAH said:
the fact that rift shakes a 2-A place
Click to expand...
One question, How will Ford know that a realm of infinite size was shaken? Actually, I think it's better to use that as evidence for "possibly 2-A."
Ayewale said:
The Arc Reactor is the direct source for most of Iron Man's attacks
Click to expand...
Not his punches, and his armor is still just metal. The Arc Reactor is an engine that functions as a power source, just like the portal.
Ayewale said:
The portal does that, sure, but there's nothing suggesting the Rift and the Portal had the same power. Or are really similar at all lol.
Click to expand...
The rift is literally a portal like the original, and it originated from the original portal, I told you before.
Magicomethkuon said:
The problem is that fiction seldom works like that.
Click to expand...
I told you, that's how it works in real life, and if it works differently in a fictional work it is because it is a logic within that work. We are not going to rely only on logic from other fictional works.
Magicomethkuon said:
A character using an energy source several tiers above should work as supporting evidence to showings and statements, not take priority over all showings and statements, disqualifying contradictions. If showings and statements are lesser than the source, the only logical conclusion is that the character draws some power from it but not to its full extent. This is the case for the Shacktron.
Click to expand...
A fraction of infinity = infinity. Furthermore, the Shacktron does not have any anti-feats, it is simply fighting with characters that are at the same level. It would be different if the Shacktron had anti-feats and I was here saying "The Shacktron is 2-A and it doesn't matter how many times it was destroyed by weaker things just because."

Anyway, as I already said, I would agree with "Low 2-C, possibly 2-A". 2-A is something I'm not entirely sure about anymore, the evidence is there, but it's kind of vague.
 
Ayewale said:
Dimensional Travel was rejected because he needs the rift to do that (at least in his physical form).

Threaten the multiverse wasn't really 'rejected', we just concluded that it was very likely referring to Bill...doing what I mentioned above.
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t that be supposrting evidence for the rift being multi+ then?
 
TheShape03 said:
A fraction of infinity = infinity. Furthermore, the Shacktron does not have any anti-feats, it is simply fighting with characters that are at the same level. It would be different if the Shacktron had anti-feats and I was here saying "The Shacktron is 2-A and it doesn't matter how many times it was destroyed by weaker things just because."

Anyway, as I already said, I would agree with "Low 2-C, possibly 2-A". 2-A is something I'm not entirely sure about anymore, the evidence is there, but it's kind of vague.
Click to expand...
The fraction of infinity argument is still a non sequitur. Any value can be taken out of infinity, not just a lesser infinity. 1, 7, 356...the Shacktron doesn't have anti-feats but it also has nil feats of the end a 2-A assumption entails. And the feats it does have are so much weaker that no one even brings them up as they're not worth mentioning and if anything, would make you think it's even weaker. This is why using real life works like that isn't a sound argument either. When its displays are found infinities short of 2-A, it's more than enough proof that GF evidently isn't working by real world rules on this one. And fighting people of its level doesn't mean anything...when none of them have 2-A feats or statements. There's far more burden of proof to bring on the 2-A evidence than there is on applying what the show is showing and telling us at every turn. Too lenient to give Bill a 2-A, when so much of it is based on conjecture and assumptions into conclusions rather than what the screen shows and tells us.
 
Eficiente said:
If I were to say something like this myself, I would be able to back it up. I expect as much from you when you have time.
Click to expand...
Fine.

I'll tell you that from since the very beginning I am advocating for only a "possibly 2-A", I never said it should be Bill's base tier, but 2-A has absolutely to get in there, given I think the narrative of the show definitely tells that Bill is more than just something Universal to be honest. But besides, let me start.
Eficiente said:
Not all of those necessarily refer to the rip, the first ones could mean that Bill would destroy the Earth regardless of how he can still destroy the universe after it. However, the rest do, and they all vary between directly referring to the rift or potentially doing so, whereas you need to push hard the "threat to the multiverse" into referring to the rift. We got the mechanics/logic of this too; The Nightmare Realm is spilling into the universe, because Bill wants to change this universe, therefore this will destroy the universe, it's super straightforward, this thing will only destroy 1 universe, not all of them.
Click to expand...
Honestly... I think you're kinda overthinking this too much. A 2-A will always be logically a threat to the universe, as it has to get involved in its destruction. Basically how the country is in danger if there's a planet buster in short, this is pretty much the same. None of these really are a big nope to Ford's claim about Bill being 2-A, as it's not like we have to be constantly spoonfed with "Bill will destroy the multiverse" constantly. We just got a statement of Bill being a threat to the multiverse + Time Baby saying that Bill will blow up the fabric of existence, with Time being absolutely related to the infinite timelines, saying that the "fabric of existence" is limited to a single timeline is just dumb and taking a veeeeeeery weird interpretation. Let's take Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse for example, the flow of time is something that exists across all the 2-A multiverse (as seen in the AP section for these two characters), the same is with Gravity Falls, where the Time Baby is the ruler of time, thus it would be logically be reffering to the multiverse here.

Plus Blendin was blatantly wrong. Bill did never destroy anything, he was merely panicking as he literally just ran away to the future and wrote stuff as in "he used my body for his plans of time travelling and destroy the universe!", but the latter never happened. He simply was wrong, and that's it.
Eficiente said:
Actually not necessarily for this reasoning, but it is correct that it is that big because it has a series of wormholes to each universe.
Click to expand...
Going again to Dragon Ball Xenoverse, the Nightmare Realm works exactly the same as the Crack of Time. If you see Mira's profile in the AP part, you'd see that we currently accept that Mira blowing up the CoT is 2-A, as it has to be 2-A sized at absolute least because of it being between all the timelines. After all, the entire reason why Low 2-C is so weaker than even baseline 2-C to the point that even an infinite multiplier of Low 2-C won't bring you to the the next tier is because of the distance between universes that makes the trick. It's why 2-C is a bigger deal, coz of it being physically bigger than 2-C right because of this range. So how would a Low 2-C sized realm be able to connect all the universes of the 2-A thing? Because it has to cover also the space between universes that makes 2-C greater than Low 2-C, let alone if you take it with infinitely more universes.
Eficiente said:
No it wasn't, that's as far as Ford perceived the shaking to be. He didn't perceive something of infinite size being affected, he just wrote that as he felt the situation to be and he was understandably wrong.
Click to expand...
Alright, so this is just... stupid. It's a thing that happens all the time in fiction, with multiple characters seeing/perceiving infinite stuff despite having finite sensory, as otherwise we'd literally have to axe away over half of the High 3-A/2-A cosmologies here because of the characters describing those infinite sized realms being humans or still non-omniscient beings with finite perception.

This is literally you enforcing your own standard on how things work on this wiki. I don't know how this argument is even acceptable, given that you're essentially saying "how could Ford know this" when it's something that happens in literally every franchise ever?
Eficiente said:
When a foe was ramming the Shacktron and forcing it back it got moved a little, if not harmed when hitting the ruins of a house. It's an anti-feat given that it has the LS to toss the monster it was fighting to the distance (At full power), but it's an insanely bigger anti-feat when saying that it dealt with a Bill at full power.
Click to expand...
To be fair, Bill was only just shocked due to him not being able to get past the barrier (given it's an Anti-Bill thing, literally), but then he found the Shacktron's weakness and dealt with it in a matter of few minutes. Yeah, he didn't one-shot, but this is fiction, we don't expect AP gaps to be potrayed accurately (otherwise for example Tier 2s wouldn't be able to hold back against Tier 3 and below because of them being literal infinities above them), plus it is indeed PIS as the narrative demanded Ford to build that circle and explain all of it. Obviously Stanley screwed it up making it meaningless to the end, but it was still a necessary thing to make that part of the story work.

Besides, I've calculated the Standford's stuff through size (as 4-A is just nonsense and even breaks our rules of Large Size Calculations) and I've got some neat stuff for the AP, LS and speed.

I think Bill should scale to those even without the size, as there's no reason why he should be inferior to the things he grants power to, as he literally is the one granting these stats in the 1st place.

But for his Tier, I think the thing should be "High 3-A, possibly 2-A", the portal shaking the NR is High 3-A at the absolute minimum indeed, with Bill being stated that he can destroy the universe multiple times and he claimed that he can give infinite power and has it himself anyways twice.

Possinly 2-A comes from the Time Baby's statement (plus what the details I've provided above) + Bill having indeed 2-A range for the portal, and he has still the intention of making the reality itself lawless, given his whole plan was to spill the NR in the "normal" dimensions, and Ford saying he is a threat right because of this. If the NR is something between all the universes, with the portal he scales from shaking all of it, then you can indeed argue that being 2-A as well.

Besides, I think I am done writing here, and I guess I'll just leave the staff to comment on my take.

EDIT: Apparentely Low 2-C is also argued as his base tier as Time Baby's statement would logically involve time too, given he's the ruler of space-time itself.

I don't mind it being its base tier either, I am neutral towards agreeing for it.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
Idrc about whatever is High 3-A or Low 2-C as the minimum by the way. So if the majority likes Low 2-C more than 2-A as the base tier, then I guess I can fly with it (if you agree that Time Baby's statement covers also time itself, given he's, you know, the guardian of it).
 
I still disagree with possible 2-A for the many reasons discussed above but I am less willing to expand and revisit them many more times over than I am willing to compile an argument and make it disappear in a future thread, to compromise. If it's not the base tier and only a possible. Low 2-C for the base seems more honest though, Bill was hinted more like a threat to space and time than just space I feel.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
I still disagree with possible 2-A for the many reasons discussed above but I am less willing to expand and revisit them many more times over than I am willing to compile an argument and make it disappear in a future thread, to compromise. If it's not the base tier and only a possible.
Click to expand...
That's perfectly fine, but I think you're also overthinking too much, and discarding all the statements and the other things I have mentioned.
 
Bill should also IMO get Extrasensory Perception, as he literally looked down on humans for being "5-sense skin puppets", implying he has more than 5 senses.
 
StrymULTRA said:
That's perfectly fine, but I think you're also overthinking too much, and discarding all the statements and the other things I have mentioned.
Click to expand...
Not so much discarding, I think there are too many variables based on personal conclusion and higher end interpretations to make it work even as possible, at least with what we have in hand. I also think the visuals and statements hint enough at Low 2-C that 2-A can't be concluded. If one side looks too different from the other I always question it a lot lol But then, you guys are working with possible? So I can compromise, even if I don't share the thought. But on the plus side, I believe a base tier lower than Low 2-C is short of what he should be capable of, my proposal is more that as the base value rather than High 3-A.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Honestly, I could see it too. But I think, given what has been discussed: Low 2-C, possibly higher would fit more because of all the unknowns.
Click to expand...
To be fair, possibly higher does not make any sense because the Time Baby means either one or the other, with no in-between. There's no real unknown here, Ford and Time Baby's statements are kinda clear on what degree Bill Cipher is a threat.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Fine.

I'll tell you that from since the very beginning I am advocating for only a "possibly 2-A", I never said it should be Bill's base tier, but 2-A has absolutely to get in there, given I think the narrative of the show definitely tells that Bill is more than just something Universal to be honest. But besides, let me start.

Honestly... I think you're kinda overthinking this too much. A 2-A will always be logically a threat to the universe, as it has to get involved in its destruction. Basically how the country is in danger if there's a planet buster in short, this is pretty much the same. None of these really are a big nope to Ford's claim about Bill being 2-A, as it's not like we have to be constantly spoonfed with "Bill will destroy the multiverse" constantly. We just got a statement of Bill being a threat to the multiverse + Time Baby saying that Bill will blow up the fabric of existence, with Time being absolutely related to the infinite timelines, saying that the "fabric of existence" is limited to a single timeline is just dumb and taking a veeeeeeery weird interpretation. Let's take Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse for example, the flow of time is something that exists across all the 2-A multiverse (as seen in the AP section for these two characters), the same is with Gravity Falls, where the Time Baby is the ruler of time, thus it would be logically be reffering to the multiverse here.

Plus Blendin was blatantly wrong. Bill did never destroy anything, he was merely panicking as he literally just ran away to the future and wrote stuff as in "he used my body for his plans of time travelling and destroy the universe!", but the latter never happened. He simply was wrong, and that's it.

Going again to Dragon Ball Xenoverse, the Nightmare Realm works exactly the same as the Crack of Time. If you see Mira's profile in the AP part, you'd see that we currently accept that Mira blowing up the CoT is 2-A, as it has to be 2-A sized at absolute least because of it being between all the timelines. After all, the entire reason why Low 2-C is so weaker than even baseline 2-C to the point that even an infinite multiplier of Low 2-C won't bring you to the the next tier is because of the distance between universes that makes the trick. It's why 2-C is a bigger deal, coz of it being physically bigger than 2-C right because of this range. So how would a Low 2-C sized realm be able to connect all the universes of the 2-A thing? Because it has to cover also the space between universes that makes 2-C greater than Low 2-C, let alone if you take it with infinitely more universes.

Alright, so this is just... stupid. It's a thing that happens all the time in fiction, with multiple characters seeing/perceiving infinite stuff despite having finite sensory, as otherwise we'd literally have to axe away over half of the High 3-A/2-A cosmologies here because of the characters describing those infinite sized realms being humans or still non-omniscient beings with finite perception.

This is literally you enforcing your own standard on how things work on this wiki. I don't know how this argument is even acceptable, given that you're essentially saying "how could Ford know this" when it's something that happens in literally every franchise ever?

To be fair, Bill was only just shocked due to him not being able to get past the barrier (given it's an Anti-Bill thing, literally), but then he found the Shacktron's weakness and dealt with it in a matter of few minutes. Yeah, he didn't one-shot, but this is fiction, we don't expect AP gaps to be potrayed accurately (otherwise for example Tier 2s wouldn't be able to hold back against Tier 3 and below because of them being literal infinities above them), plus it is indeed PIS as the narrative demanded Ford to build that circle and explain all of it. Obviously Stanley screwed it up making it meaningless to the end, but it was still a necessary thing to make that part of the story work.

Besides, I've calculated the Standford's stuff through size (as 4-A is just nonsense and even breaks our rules of Large Size Calculations) and I've got some neat stuff for the AP, LS and speed.

I think Bill should scale to those even without the size, as there's no reason why he should be inferior to the things he grants power to, as he literally is the one granting these stats in the 1st place.

But for his Tier, I think the thing should be "High 3-A, possibly 2-A", the portal shaking the NR is High 3-A at the absolute minimum indeed, with Bill being stated that he can destroy the universe multiple times and he claimed that he can give infinite power and has it himself anyways twice.

Possinly 2-A comes from the Time Baby's statement (plus what the details I've provided above) + Bill having indeed 2-A range for the portal, and he has still the intention of making the reality itself lawless, given his whole plan was to spill the NR in the "normal" dimensions, and Ford saying he is a threat right because of this. If the NR is something between all the universes, with the portal he scales from shaking all of it, then you can indeed argue that being 2-A as well.

Besides, I think I am done writing here, and I guess I'll just leave the staff to comment on my take.

EDIT: Apparentely Low 2-C is also argued as his base tier as Time Baby's statement would logically involve time too, given he's the ruler of space-time itself.

I don't mind it being its base tier either, I am neutral towards agreeing for it.
Click to expand...
Firestorm808 said:
I am currently thinking this is just Tier 2, not Tier 1.
Click to expand...
Abstractions said:
Then it should be listed that way.
Click to expand...
Forgot you two too. Please give an answer.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Honestly, I could see it too. But I think, given what has been discussed: Low 2-C, possibly higher would fit more because of all the unknowns.
Click to expand...
I don’t think possibly higher works, since that would mean he has scales in between multi+ and uni+ which isn’t true, the possibly multi+ should work or just not be there
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Chanimate
(GRACE) Fastest Thing Alive vs Space Triangle (Base Sonic vs Bill Cipher) [8-0-0]
2
Replies
48
Views
5K
Chanimate
Chanimate
StrymULTRA
  • Locked
Bill Cipher Rework: Part 2 (Abilities + stuff)
3 4 5
Replies
177
Views
9K
StrymULTRA
StrymULTRA
Brogeefrong
  • Locked
Celestial Chaos| Bill Cipher vs Alien X | 3-5-0
4 5 6
Replies
215
Views
15K
Greenshifter
Greenshifter
Brogeefrong
  • Locked
Random bullshit matches come to life by me | Bill Cipher vs SDBH Broly | 0-1-8 (Grace))D))O)))N))))E)))
Replies
22
Views
3K
Duedate8898
Duedate8898
ShionAH
The DIMENSION Master VS The All Seeing EYE
Replies
30
Views
3K
StrymULTRA
StrymULTRA
Back
Top