Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.

[ZeedKZ]

Skill issue then That's a reference, it doesn't really affects the reasoning.

 

[Spinoirr]

Shouldn't bill have concept Manipulation?

 

[ShionAH]

Shouldn't bill have concept Manipulation?

No why

 

[ZeedKZ]

Shouldn't bill have concept Manipulation?

He should but not like it is getting passed here.

 

[Spinoirr]

No why

Bro ate the concept of life basically

 

[Robo432343]

Skill issue then That's a reference, it doesn't really affects the reasoning.

That thread pretty much used the same reasoning as this one and got rejected

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Bro ate the concept of life basically

source

 

[ZeedKZ]

source

Here, he tasted life itself.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Ford knows enough to understand these stuff.

MY EYES

Sorry We may disagree, but I think there's more burden of proof in proving his statement to be literal where he's gauging infinity shaking from a glance, in a situation of distress, than there is to the negative claim of by the realm shook he means as far as he could perceive it. Statements like this are good for cumulative evidence but in a vacuum of supporting context aren't conclusive enough.

Ford does use "the entire Nightmare Realm" to describe it, so there's a bit more credence to it, especially since lad is aware just how big the thing is

He does. But these statements are common in fiction. And Bill's feats to corroborate to a 2-A rating just...aren't there. Which makes this a hard ball to pass.

To @TheShape03

I don't have anything to say about points 1 and 5 that Eficiente already hasn't so I won't be redundant. But two and three.

2) It is a threat to the multiverse.

Being a threat to the multiverse = 2-A attack potency for a character without feats of that scale is an excess leap in logic.

3) It was going to destroy all of existence (Time Baby only says that the rip originated in that dimension, not that it's only going to affect that dimension).

About this.......Time Baby never says all of existence. He says destroy the fabric of existence and it shows the current world going pop. Makes no mention of other dimensions or timelines. Bill Cipher's own claim is a desire to liberate this dimension, likely planning to hop to another afterwards and repeat the process. In a vacuum of showings that display multiversal scale of destruction, Occam's Razor would say that Bill is a threat to the multiverse because he'll live forever and repeat this process for eternity. Not that he will end everything with a flick of his fingers as soon as he steps out of the current world.

4) It has been shown that Weirdmaggedon was affecting other dimensions.

This as Eficiente's reply would back up means range, not AP. Even if it was AP the extent shown was not enough to stretch a 2-A for Bill. You see, the problem with raising Bill's tier is that most of his supporting lore is vague, when it isn't vague it's insufficient and when you look at Bill's showings they make Occam's razor cut towards the lower end interpretation every time.

 

[Eficiente]

Ford does use "the entire Nightmare Realm" to describe it, so there's a bit more credence to it, especially since lad is aware just how big the thing is

Well, if flowery language was used then using "the entire" or not using it doesn't matter, as it can be added to add weight on the writing rather than to write down more precisely what's happening. "He was the best the entire Earth had ever known" (Overselling), "The entire world would know his fury" (exaggerating).

To note, to not have one's cake & eat it to in this topic people would need to argue that Ford has:

• Enhanced Senses (Was able to sense the entire Nightmare Realm shaking, which is infinite in size)

Which is BS. The guy didn't know the town of Gravity Falls had that barrier that limited Bill, didn't know his weirdness didn't go past it (Not just the magic but the physical changes to reality), and needed to put his hands to his mouth & shout "Mabel! Mabel!" when trying to find her in the comic when she fell into a portal that led to many other portals across the multiverse. But all of this is even dumb to talk about next to the simple fact that a human can't have senses like that. Yes, Ford is superhumanly smart, but that's his gimmick, his intelligence, not senses. He can still make similar decisions and mistakes to regular people.

Ford knows enough to understand these stuff. He doesnt have to perceive it, just feel the shake. Plus if it can shake the entire realm Ford feeling it is very much possible

Remember when I said?;

You keep having this "I'm gonna use this to support believing this" moments but you fail to see where actual connections are and what is only vaguely related.

Well, this is one of them. Yes, Ford knows stuff. That's a vague relation. The rest of baseless speculation. You don't know if he knows enough to understand what would shake the whole dimension or what he needs to feel in the shake to know what it would do. It's excusatory logic, you conclude things based on how you want things to be, and so you conclude that things do so when they don't.

I want to see the scan for this though, I am very curious

I wasn't joking with "Please show that to anyone near you and ask them what I meant". There is no shame in it, nor I am trying to insult you, anyone can do Vs Debates but it would be better if we were all in roughly the same page. And what I mean by that is that I clearly didn't mean to say that I have a scan for that because my issue is with the logic of taking that text literally, it can't possibly be understood from what I wrote that I have a scan for that, and that generates me worries.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

About this.......Time Baby never says all of existence. He says destroy the fabric of existence and it shows the current world going pop.

It only shows an explosion encompassing everything, not a specific universe being destroyed hardly see it as enough evidence to it only being specific to universal

Makes no mention of other dimensions or timelines.

Tbf he says if the rip in “this dimension”continues it will destroy existence implying he knows of other dimensions other wise he would have just said “the universe”

I think this statement relies on which supporting evidence is stronger, it’s not specifically universal nor multiversal

 

[Magicomethkuon]

It only shows an explosion encompassing everything, not a specific universe being destroyed hardly see it as enough evidence to it only being specific to universal

Tbf he says if the rip in “this dimension”continues it will destroy existence implying he knows of other dimensions other wise he would have just said “the universe”

I think this statement relies on which supporting evidence is stronger, it’s not specifically universal nor multiversal

Well, I'll be damned. Always interpreted it as representation of a galaxy and surrounding stars or the universe. I'm not the author and guess this is in the eye of the beholder so I'll take the L I guess. But giving Bill 2-A has a problem of assuming the most generous interpretation of everything that surrounds his characterization. The evidence of his powers often hinted in the opposite direction. Seems to me that Universal is the most consistent, safe interpretation.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Well, I'll be damned. Always interpreted it as representation of a galaxy and surrounding stars or the universe. I'm not the author and guess this is in the eye of the beholder so I'll take the L I guess. But giving Bill 2-A has a problem of assuming the most generous interpretation of everything that surrounds his characterization. The evidence of his powers often hinted in the opposite direction. Seems to me that Universal is the most consistent, safe interpretation.

I’m waiting for other responses from phoenks and strym before fully making a answer since imo bill should have a likely rating (not outright) for scaling to the rift we just need to find out where the rift scales

 

[Ayewale]

Seems to me that Universal is the most consistent, safe interpretion

Just to remind you, this entire CRT is based off a death battle profile, which explains most of it.

In any case, Efficiente's explanation makes sense. 'The portal shook the entire nighhtmare realm' shouldn't be taken literally unless you're willing to give Ford Multiversal+ Range on his Extrasensory Perception...a power he rather blatantly doesn't have.

And even if it did shake the entire thing, Bill wouldn't scale to it in any way, shape or form. The rift and the portal have zero reason to have the same power output.

And the Shacktron isn't ******* 2-A, it's engine is built from some of the portal's parts--that in no way makes it even remotely good enough to be as powerful.

 

[Ayewale]

Ford does use "the entire Nightmare Realm" to describe it, so there's a bit more credence to it, especially since lad is aware just how big the thing is

He's aware of how big it is but he has literally zero way of knowing if the very literal entirety of the nightmare realm shook in that moment or not.

Tbf he says if the rip in “this dimension”continues it will destroy existence implying he knows of other dimensions other wise he would have just said “the universe”

What? The logic here doesn't really make any sense. Dimension in Gravity Falls is nearly always a substitute for the word universe.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

What? The logic here doesn't really make any sense. Dimension in Gravity Falls is nearly always a substitute for the word universe.

I don’t think your understanding my point, my point was that because time baby calls it a “dimension” he would likely know about other dimensions as well considering he would have just called it “the dimension” or “the universe” if he didn’t. The statement is so vague about whether it was referring to the dimension or the multiverse which is why we need the supporting evidence, I feel like we should wait for phoenks and stryum before moving on with a/p

 

[Ayewale]

I don’t think your understanding my point, my point was that because time baby calls it a “dimension” he would likely know about other dimensions as well considering he would have just called it “the dimension” or “the universe” if he didn’t. The statement is so vague about whether it was referring to the dimension or the multiverse which is why we need the supporting evidence, I feel like we should wait for phoenks and stryum before moving on with a/p

I’m not a fan of arguing that the usage of the word “this” implies plurality by default compared to “the”. I tried to find it this was an actual literary rule of sort but turned up with nothing.

Also Time Baby using “the“ over “this” in his sentence sounds awkward and doesn’t make too much grammatical sense. He’s using this to refer specifically to Dimension 46 because ‘the’ would just frankly make less sense.

 

[Eficiente]

Yes, using "this" rather "the" doesn't matter, for example one can call the world "this world" w/o meaning that they know there are many worlds. It can't be used to infer that he knows that, not even as a "Possibly" and as something vague, you just can't do that.

 

[Eficiente]

Btw, since this is so linked to Death Battle. I don't keep up with it as much as others do, I'm not in its official discord and I have never talked with anyone in its research team. However, I know that people have done the latter. I'm very critical of DB if one were to ask me, but I also still love it for being what got me into Vs Debates and want it to improve. I often times have a lot of things to disagree with when the G1 blogs come out, and I do mean a lot, from things they may not concur with me to things they would agree that they got wrong, and I would love to have the chance to debate that with them. I don't have the time to leave them a critique, especially since idk if they would listen, and I don't have the time (or interest) to try to become more of DB fan to try to reach them, but I would be very much interested to give my opinion if they reach to me. Just as long as they don't do so for discord, since I don't use it, they can send me a private conversation here and we can talk there or arrange something else. If anyone has the ability to send them this, please do so, I'm confident in my ability to be of help.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Btw, since this is so linked to Death Battle. I don't keep up with it as much as others do, I'm not in its official discord and I have never talked with anyone in its research team. However, I know that people have done the latter. I'm very critical of DB if one were to ask me, but I also still love it for being what got me into Vs Debates and want it to improve. I often times have a lot of things to disagree with when the G1 blogs come out, and I do mean a lot, from things they may not concur with me to things they would agree that they got wrong, and I would love to have the chance to debate that with them. I don't have the time to leave them a critique, especially since idk if they would listen, and I don't have the time (or interest) to try to become more of DB fan to try to reach them, but I would be very much interested to give my opinion if they reach to me. Just as long as they don't do so for discord, since I don't use it, they can send me a private conversation here and we can talk there or arrange something else. If anyone has the ability to send them this, please do so, I'm confident in my ability to be of help.

I… don’t think anybody from this thread has a direct connection to the DB team lol. Some of the arguments from this are just based on what the recent episode said but the thread has no connection to the Death Battle team.

 

[Eficiente]

That's ok. I randomly hear that people has talked to them, but idk which users those are.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

That's ok. I randomly hear that people has talked to them, but idk which users those are.

It’s mostly in the Death Battle discussion thread where that happens, some of the team members like Speedy, Ultra, and DJ will occasionally pop in, usually around the time an episode releases.

 

[Phoenks]

Just to remind you, this entire CRT is based off a death battle profile, which explains most of it.

In any case, Efficiente's explanation makes sense. 'The portal shook the entire nighhtmare realm' shouldn't be taken literally unless you're willing to give Ford Multiversal+ Range on his Extrasensory Perception...a power he rather blatantly doesn't have.

And even if it did shake the entire thing, Bill wouldn't scale to it in any way, shape or form. The rift and the portal have zero reason to have the same power output.

And the Shacktron isn't ***** 2-A, it's engine is built from some of the portal's parts--that in no way makes it even remotely good enough to be as powerful.

I disagree with the logic here for the Shacktron.

The materials needed to make something don't translate to how powerful the end result is when you are working with Extraordinary Geniuses.

People like Iron Man, Doctor Doom, and many other supernatural geniuses in fiction can make cosmic tiered weaponry and machinery with seemingly basic items at times. So this isn't a good argument in my opinion.

Saying that it didn't shake the entire realm is a bit more of an assumption imo.

To shake the realm at all would be 2-A, as well. Since how could shockwaves reach anywhere in a 2-A realm without 2-A range?

Ford doesn't need to have 2-A extrasensory perception to feel this at the edge.

Bill's power is the cause of said portal so he should scale.


All in all, the arguments you and Efi are making seem to be personal judgments on feats that are vague enough to be taken in multiple different ways.

I see these as legitimate enough for 2-A, and so do others, so rather than debating on the semantics and personal views I'd rather leave this up to a matter of staff voting tally.

Thread has gotten too chaotic and long for my taste.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Besides, the rift was far smaller at the time. When it was bigger & Bill was growing in power, every so often it was growing bigger, meaning that it's at its weakest there when at the size of a hamster.

I'll reply to you later, I think you're purposely leaving out stuff just to fit your narrative tbf, but I can't exactly give an answer rn.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I agree with 2-A Bill

 

[Ayewale]

I disagree with the logic here for the Shacktron.

The materials needed to make something don't translate to how powerful the end result is when you are working with Extraordinary Geniuses.

People like Iron Man, Doctor Doom, and many other supernatural geniuses in fiction can make cosmic tiered weaponry and machinery with seemingly basic items at times. So this isn't a good argument in my opinion.

We...agree! I am arguing that the Shacktron isn't 2-A, not that it is.

To shake the realm at all would be 2-A, as well. Since how could shockwaves reach anywhere in a 2-A realm without 2-A range?

Ford doesn't need to have 2-A extrasensory perception to feel this at the edge.

You explained the answer to the first sentence with the second: Ford would feel it since he's at the edge. Shockwaves don't need to be 2-A to...exist in a 2-A range, that's...not true? Not every shockwave made in marvel has multiversal range? At least not without a justification. Ford would also need 2-A extrasensory perception to tell that it affected the entire multiverse/

Bill's power is the cause of said portal so he should scale.

Where on earth does this come from? The Interdimensional Portal isn't powered by Bill at all. He has zero reason to scale to this.

All in all, the arguments you and Efi are making seem to be personal judgments on feats that are vague enough to be taken in multiple different ways.

Edit: How am I supposed to make a non-personal judgement? It's not like me and efi can ordain opinions from gods. For the most part, these feats aren't vague as much as they are 'ever so slightly up to interpretation which means abandoning all other logic to make 2-A true'.

A 2-A rating for Bill requires unlikely assumption stacked upon unlikely assumption to work.

• You have to assume that Ford somehow knew that the entire Nightmare Realm shook
• assume that Ford had the extrasensory perception to make this statement true
• assume that the rift that Bill subsists also shook the Nightmare Realm without a single source to support that
• assume that Time Baby was referring to the entire multiverse
• assume that the explosion Time Baby talked about wasn't referring to the Nightmare Realm's lawless nature eventually destroying the place
• assume Weirdmageddon affected the entire multiverse
• (optional) assume the Shacktron scales to 2-A for some reason??
• (optional) assume that Bill being a threat to the multiverse in any way makes him multiversal

Occam's Razor and common sense gets rid of every single thing on that list except Time Baby's statement, which is a lot muddier--in which case, the wiki generally defaults to the weaker position. Any feat can be taken in 'multiple different ways', but not all ways are created equal.

Honestly I don't really feel like there's been much debate over 2-A Bill, at least on my end it's mostly (excluding Phoenks) being ignored or wild assumptions. Wild assumptions works for Death Battle, but it unsurprisingly doesn't hold a lot of sway here. And before you say it, this wouldn't qualify for a 'Possibly' rating either: we don't give characters absurdly high possible ratings for the sake of acknowledging wank, we give it to them when there's clear undeniable evidence that there might be something else going on. The only evidence for Bill being 2-A that's even 100% true is the Portal having a 2-A feat; that's literally it, everything else ranges from very questionable to outright ridiculous.

This is to speak nothing of the new PnA being almost entirely fake.

 

[Ayewale]

Also this was mentioned a long time ago but Blendin clarifies rather explicitly that Bill "traveled through time and destroyed the universe--and Time Baby, too!". If we combine this with Time Baby's statement the chances that Time Baby was referring to the entire multiverse decreases even more.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

I disagree with 2-A tbh the arguments for it are very vague and weak imo. I also still don’t think he should have the Infinite Perception speed but need more input on that.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

The Infinite perception speed thing is a huge no. There's nothing about this that makes it speed-related. It's an answer to a question about Bill's Precognition. Also, in the phrase "A KALEIDOSCOPE OF TEMPORAL PROBABILITY WITH FLUCTUATING RANGE," kaleidoscope directly serves as a metaphor to describe a constantly in-flux, multi-faceted view of temporal events. Bill isn't just seeing a single timeline or a single possibility; he is viewing the many possibilities simultaneously. "Fluctuating range" implies he is seeing how the range of possibilities and their details shift too. The only way you might somehow get speed out of this is if Bill was viewing each of the infinite timelines one by one, but the context implies he's just viewing all of them at the same time. At best, this would just be Precognition or Cosmic Awareness.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't think Ford actually needed Enhanced Senses to realize that the Nightmare Realm shook, lad made the Portal and should know its capacities, thats why he immediately connected the dots that the portal was reactivated, no?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’m fine with Tier 3 via the galaxy stuff, though I agree with Ayewale’s and Eficiente’s takes on 2-A.

I disagree with Infinite Perception speed too, more accurate to list as Cosmic Awareness.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Think a big summary post that addresses Ayewale’s and Eficiente’s arguments is being worked on, probably best to wait for that

 

[Phoenks]

We...agree! I am arguing that the Shacktron isn't 2-A, not that it is.

And I am explaining why your reasoning for saying it isn't is weak.

I am agreeing with 2-A Shacktron.

I will reiterate that the materials something is made with have nothing to do with how powerful the end result is when dealing with supernatural engineers.

You explained the answer to the first sentence with the second: Ford would feel it since he's at the edge. Shockwaves don't need to be 2-A to...exist in a 2-A range, that's...not true? Not every shockwave made in marvel has multiversal range? At least not without a justification. Ford would also need 2-A extrasensory perception to tell that it affected the entire multiverse/

There's no reason to assume that it didn't affect the entire multiverse just because he couldn't sense the entire multiverse in my eyes.

Ford is an extraordinary genius and almost always a reputable source.

I dislike the notion that "he can't sense it so he can't prove it"

It's like discarding any statement of someone having affected a multiverse from anyone who doesn't have 2-A sensory abilities. Just rubs me the wrong way personally.

Where on earth does this come from? The Interdimensional Portal isn't powered by Bill at all. He has zero reason to scale to this.

It's a result of Bill's presence and it goes away when Bill is gone.

How am I supposed to make a non-personal judgement? It's not like me and efi can ordain opinions from gods. For the most part, these feats aren't vague as much as they are 'ever so slightly up to interpretation which means abandoning all other logic to make 2-A true'.

I don't like the way you phrased this. Comes off arrogant. Saying everyone who agrees with 2-A is abandoning logic is wild lol.

A 2-A rating for Bill requires unlikely assumption stacked upon unlikely assumption to work.

• You have to assume that Ford somehow knew that the entire Nightmare Realm shook
• assume that Ford had the extrasensory perception to make this statement true
• assume that the rift that Bill subsists also shook the Nightmare Realm without a single source to support that
• assume that Time Baby was referring to the entire multiverse
• assume that the explosion Time Baby talked about wasn't referring to the Nightmare Realm's lawless nature eventually destroying the place
• assume Weirdmageddon affected the entire multiverse
• (optional) assume the Shacktron scales to 2-A for some reason??
• (optional) assume that Bill being a threat to the multiverse in any way makes him multiversal

1. Ford is a reputable source and there's no reason to think he's a liar here or just exaggerating. In like every case on the wiki we take people's word for things like this.

2. Time Baby referring to the multiverse is hardly a bad assumption when we know that the rip through dimensions occured in other universes as well. As supporting evidence it favors the 2-A side a decent bit.

3. Time Baby refers to it as "your" rip in the dimension when speaking to Bill, so I don't think it's just the Nightmare Realm seeping in.

4. Weirdmaggedon had affects in other universes even after Bill was defeated. Supporting it being an at least multiversal affect on reality. Which supports our overall claim.

5. You have not provided a valid reason to not scale Shacktron.

6. Being a threat to the multiverse that also potentially erases dimensions just by being there for too long. Yes, being a threat to a 2-A cosmology in fact supports him being 2-A.

And yeah, again, I don't like you just declaring every claim that doesn't line up with your view as being ridiculous and outright wrong.

 

[ShionAH]

I’m fine with Tier 3 via the galaxy stuff, though I agree with Ayewale’s and Eficiente’s takes on 2-A.

I disagree with Infinite Perception speed too, more accurate to list as Cosmic Awareness.

You should wait for the responses.

So Cosmic awareness? hmm

 

[ShionAH]

For 2-A Bill

Agreements: 25, @Adem_Warlock69, @StrymULTRA, @Lord_Farquaad69420, @Phoenks, @ThanatosX, @Da3ggman, @Eseseso, @BestMGQScalerEver, @y3p_owo, @Firestorm808, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Flashlight237, @Axxtentacle, @Gewsbumpz_dude, @ZeedKZ, @The_Axiom_of_Virgo, @HenshinIntervention (Agrees with Possibly), @DaReaperMan, @Stefano4444, @TheShape03, @DonkeySlayer06, @Georredannea15, @ShivaShakti
Disagreements: 4, @CinnabarManx421, @Ayewale, @Eficiente, @Maverick_Zero_X
Neutral: 3, @AParticularInduvidial, @Abstractions, @LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Maverick currently also disagrees

 

[ShionAH]

Maverick currently also disagrees

I was gonna add them but I realized they wrote that before Phoenks responded. I would like to ask for an additional confirmation about their current opinion

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Also Time Baby using “the“ over “this” in his sentence sounds awkward and doesn’t make too much grammatical sense. He’s using this to refer specifically to Dimension 46 because ‘the’ would just frankly make less sense.

Yeah, I agree I’m mostly saying that time baby would say “this dimension” if he wasn’t aware of others which is why I’m saying the “existence” statement is too vague by itself and you could argue it for universal or 2-A depending on supporting evidence

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I was gonna add them but I realized they wrote that before Phoenks responded. I would like to ask for an additional confirmation about their current opinion

I don’t think firestorm have an opinion,, they just asked if these were new arguments

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Also, I think that low 2-C or universal have more supporting arguments for the rift but the evidence of a 2-A rift is there as shown is Phoenks comment, so I could see bills tier as
Varies from Low 7-C to 3-B likely 3-A/Low 2-C possibly 2-A