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We need to stop taking the word "concept" at face value (Satoru Gojo CM removal)

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I was going to type up a response to the thread but @Ultima_Reality already addressed anything that I was going to address, in both his initial response to the OP and his response against @Dr._whiteee contentions.

I guess all I can say is that as someone who is listed as knowledgeable on our Conceptual Manipulation standards, I agree with Ultima's conclusion that Gojo's Conceptual Manipulation should be removed from his profile until further, concrete evidence of Infinity manipulating concepts themselves is provided.
 
Someone did the deed, i was planning to create a crt to get rid of gojo probability manip and conceptual manip

Agree FRA
 
Ultima_Reality said:
The scan you posted doesn't say this. In fact, the editor says that, with regards to the first application of Infinity (Stopping things by actualizing infinite distance), the usage Achilles and the Tortoise is correct. What he seems to be saying is wrong, instead, is the logic used for the second application (Repelling things)
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He is saying that is wrong because the concept of infinity is the engine for all of Gojo's techniques (Btw here is a link to the whole afterward). The "attraction" (aka blue) is created when he subtracts space from reality by manifesting negative numbers (red is created by multiplying blue Ce by itself to create a positive value and expand space) from infinity. This is a subset of his power infinity (as imaginary and negative numbers would be subsets of the number line). So while on an abstract level you could explain the power of Infinity by using the Achilles and Tortoise example, it actually doesn't hold weight to the actual concept of infinity, which is what the editor is pointing out.

This is highlighted in the lecture [1] [2]

Here you can even refer to the editor referencing the panel I showed, claiming the he put forward the idea of "scaling". Scaling would inherently add an abstract element to portioning space-time (as notice they explicitly use time for reference) as there is no absolute difference between say, an inch and a foot, outside of our arbitrary partitions of infinite space. Even then, he adds that he was not elegant enough with the actual explanation in regard to math.
Ultima_Reality said:
I'm not sure what exactly the tidbit you quoted from that scan is meant to prove.
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That Gojo's infinity space is a space conjured from infinity that exist in the real world but is actually an infinite space that doesn't play by the rules of "finite dimensional space".
Ultima_Reality said:
As for the second point: Of course, but Spatial Manipulation isn't restricted solely to doing solely things restricted to what classical physics permits. There are plenty of crazier feats that can still be classified as so.
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Which is why we look at mechanisms. The mechanism for Gojo is the concept of infinity, which is an omnipresent thing that when conjured into physical reality allows Gojo to bend the very fabric of space-time on a mathematical level. so the most fundamental aspect of his power would be his control over the type 2 concept of infinity.
Ultima_Reality said:
Gojo literally being able to make shit like "-1 apples" actually materialize is better evidence for Infinity being more abstract than milquetoast Spacehax, yeah. Although I'd classify that as Mathematics Manipulation, not Conceptual Manipulation.
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That power is directly stemming from the omnipresent infinity though. Which not only grants this abstract function but also his other abilities which alter the fundamental physical reality. for added context, JJK is currently accepted as a verse whose physical and spiritual dichotomy is underlined by information type 2. So this should also inform you as to how JJK's reality operates, with curses being described as a space between mind and matter [2] (I'm sure you see the ontological consequences I am poking at). This is quite literally form > substance so I'm having a bit of an issue understanding our disagreement here.

I could see math manip, but once again that's kind of chalky since the "engine" of this is the conceptual infinity, and even it was math manipulation here, it would be such an abstract mechanism of math manip that it'd pretty much be synonymous with localized concept manip type 2, as math at this level isn't really representative of practical reality but rather abstractions and concepts which interact to form rules and such. So if this is mostly a pure sementic battle I would be fine with a compromise of this. But if anything I feel with the evidence I've provided we are looking at concept type 2, type 2 info, math, and law manip for the ability overall, with the latter three stemming from the former.
Ultima_Reality said:
To be precise: I don't think infinity here refers to a concept at all, no. "Infinity is everywhere" is just talking about how space is continuous and therefore every single bit of it is divisible into infinite parts, the catch being that those parts form an infinite series whose limit converges into a finite value, and as such they don't actually make an infinite extension. Gojo just tweaks that and makes it so it actually does.
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This doesn't make sense with the Gojo's ability to utilize divergence and convergence to create physical impossibilities and manifest them into reality. That ability once again being a subset of his overall infinity.
Ultima_Reality said:
Can you explain the context of the concepts scan? It's pretty vague at a glance. No clue of what it's saying.

Anyway: part here, specifically, seems to summarize as "Sukuna was stated to target existence itself and yet he didn't literally cut the entire universe and other realms, so this means he actually sliced through existence as an abstract quality and not the physical structure of things." I don't find this very convincing, seeing as the very scan explaining it prefaces "Existence itself" with "The entire world." And, for the matter, even if you include the Buddhist roots of the term into the mix, it still wouldn't suggest much of what you're saying.
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The concepts come from an earlier fight in which Kenjaku (think JJKs Aizen) is fighting another powerful sorcerer. When trying to figure out her technique, he breaks it down and learns she is manipulating the concept of mass (note Gege's use of parenthesis when talking about concepts) as the target of her curse technique. This allows her to bypass his defenses and achieve impossible feats such as breaking through a space that had fractal circular definition [2] . Said barrier (Sunyata Barrier) being a sort of void space where barrier users can shape reality to their whim and being able to do things like contributing to neutralizing black holes. This also gave her the passive effect (given her mass couldn't be contained semantically or pragmatically) of Kenjaku being unable to use high grade cursed spirits, as she would ignore the concepts involved. Ergo, CT inherently have target concepts utilized as its foundation and frames Infinity as a concept and contextualizes how Sukuna learns to bypass it.

I would say that in order to take this interpretation you would need to ignore the pre-estabilshed conditions of infinity, the context I provided about cursed techniques needing a target concept and Sukuna's explicit use of the language (i.e. "target") as linkage to him needing to target "the concept of existence" and the fact that Sukuna expictly references "that world" when speaking of Gojo's infinity instead of saying "this world" implying that Gojo's realm, while conceptual, would still fall under the umbrella of existence.

Also if you believe Gojo's ability is "abstract math manip" I don't see how Sukuna would be able to target such an abstraction without math manip of his own, his dialogue lends much more credence to him targeting the concept to bypass infinity.
Ultima_Reality said:
(Or what I think you're saying, in any case. I might of course be completely off the mark here, so, as said, you can correct me if needed)

The lack of universe-spanning effects certainly ought to be interpreted here, given that, but I don't see what makes your claims the correct interpretation.
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That is more of a side thing. With the context provided by the worlds most knowledgeable Jujutsu sorcerer telling us CT target concepts, and Sukuna (the second most knowledgeable of Jujutsu) being explicit about him targeting not only space, or the world, but existence itself, should be a pretty easy conclusion given the cosmology of JJK and how reality operates.

I don't know how you disconnect Kenjaku's explanation from Sukuna's explicit mention of altering his CT's target concept (with concepts being integral to the function of CT in general). But yeah, a side consequence of not acknowledging the conceptual/abstract nature of Sukuna's pierce you'd be saying he physically slashed space, the world, and existence, and cut it, despite the fact we only see a localized cut on Gojo and not the end of existence from such a scale being cut.
Ultima_Reality said:
I don't find it very clear, myself, so, can you explain?
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Gojo's infinity is inherently tied to reality as a whole. Tengen, a curse who exist as the universe itself, and Gojo's 6 eyes/limitless are literally tied to fate (for context here, the plasma vessel is the physical body tengen incarnates into to remain physically existent and not merge its consciousness into reality creating a singulairty similar to Umr At Tawil from Persona 2) . His abilities are quite literally an expression of reality. His domain (a domain is a reflection of a person's internal mindscape being manifested into reality) being called an unlimited void is supporting evidence for the core of his power being quite synonymous with infinite existence. I would also like to point out that we saw Gojo do this, not just with regular space, but also to abstract space such as Sukuna's shrine [2] which is outright stated to exist symbolically in the mindscape of domains, Gojo dilated the area into a size of the basketball to contain Sukuna's larger domain which requires a concrete "image" to achieve and accounting for things like vector parameters, acceleration, etc. With reality also being inherently type 2 information, this would also heavily preclude the conceptual nature of jujutsu as I also outlined with Kenkaju's discussion of cursed techniques above.
Ultima_Reality said:
Favor for a homie.
Click to expand...
Appreciated.
 
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Deceived3596 said:
I guess all I can say is that as someone who is listed as knowledgeable on our Conceptual Manipulation standards,
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But you added yourself to that list? I'm not doubting your knowledgeability, but this isn't a credential it's essentially your own personal endorsement of yourself.
 
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So this has become a bit of a mess for me and understanding but, the OP is saying that the scan from the interview states that Gojo isn't actually manipulating concepts but people's perception in order to use his CT? Hence why the concept would actually fall under Idealism since Idealism is based around the idea that reality is based on our perception instead of being separate from it?

We then have the added context of the other scan which is that Gojo takes the natural incurring infinity and make it real, which further detaches it from being Conceptual Manipulation since our assumption for our conceptual manipulation is that these concepts are real because they're governing reality in some form or shape.

Am I correct on all of this in terms of the argument against Conceptual Manipulation?
 
Duedate8898 said:
So this has become a bit of a mess for me and understanding but, the OP is saying that the scan from the interview states that Gojo isn't actually manipulating concepts but people's perception in order to use his CT? Hence why the concept would actually fall under Idealism since Idealism is based around the idea that reality is based on our perception instead of being separate from it?

We then have the added context of the other scan which is that Gojo takes the natural incurring infinity and make it real, which further detaches it from being Conceptual Manipulation since our assumption for our conceptual manipulation is that these concepts are real because they're governing reality in some form or shape.

Am I correct on all of this in terms of the argument against Conceptual Manipulation?
Click to expand...
Ultima also pointed out that the infinity Gojo refers to is the one from Zeno's paradox not an abstract one
Ultima_Reality said:
Although the logic here is isn't exactly bad, the initial premise is mistaken. To my knowledge, the "Infinity" that Gojo is referring to, here, is the infinity of Zeno's Paradoxes, which is to say the idea that space is infinitely divisible and as such motion from any Point A to another Point B is impossible. This infinity is, indeed, a physical entity, not an abstract one, because all it refers to is the continuity of space, which is an important element of classical physics (Relativity, for instance, models spacetime as continuous). Space indeed doesn't have a smallest measure as far as we are aware, and so it isn't a discrete patchwork divided in "chunks." It's continuous like the real line in mathematics is.
Click to expand...
 
Duedate8898 said:
So this has become a bit of a mess for me and understanding but, the OP is saying that the scan from the interview states that Gojo isn't actually manipulating concepts but people's perception in order to use his CT? Hence why the concept would actually fall under Idealism since Idealism is based around the idea that reality is based on our perception instead of being separate from it?
Click to expand...
For what I put in OP, close enough since concept is being used in context of thoughts or perception.

So it seems that Gojo is able to tweak the concept of "near and "far". He can tweak the feeling of the enemy who thought "near!". For example, if they are separated 1000 meters away, he can make them think "he's near". In reverse, he can also control the phase to make the opponent think 1 m as "that's far!".
Click to expand...
It's more like his manipulation of space/distance creates these "illusions" or changes their perception of near and far. I wouldn't be opposed to replacing CM with perception manip though.
 
Duedate8898 said:
So this has become a bit of a mess for me and understanding but, the OP is saying that the scan from the interview states that Gojo isn't actually manipulating concepts but people's perception in order to use his CT? Hence why the concept would actually fall under Idealism since Idealism is based around the idea that reality is based on our perception instead of being separate from it?

We then have the added context of the other scan which is that Gojo takes the natural incurring infinity and make it real, which further detaches it from being Conceptual Manipulation since our assumption for our conceptual manipulation is that these concepts are real because they're governing reality in some form or shape.

Am I correct on all of this in terms of the argument against Conceptual Manipulation?
Click to expand...
I have updated the collection of evidence in my last response to Ultima.
 
Would there be a need to change it to perception manipulation? Isn't the altered perception indirectly caused, it only exists due to the alteration in space from how I understood Gojo's Limitless.
 
not sure if this relates but this is interesting
21.png



From TCB for JJK Chapter 205, regarding kenjaku's talk about concepts in regards to Yuki's CT
 
Cyberblader90 said:
not sure if this relates but this is interesting
21.png



From TCB for JJK Chapter 205, regarding kenjaku's talk about concepts in regards to Yuki's CT
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Yes indeed, Kenjaku touches on this when discussing Yuki's concept manipulation and it is essentially proof of Concept type 2, given her state could not be defined abstractly or realistically, once again harkening back to the fundamental conceptual/Informational core of jujutsu.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
Yes indeed, Kenjaku touches on this when discussing Yuki's concept manipulation and it is essentially proof of Concept type 2, given her state could not be defined abstractly or realistically, once again harkening back to the fundamental conceptual/Informational core of jujutsu.
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Try reading the scan and you’ll see it doesn’t relate to ontology/metaphysics and thus isn’t CM.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Try reading the scan and you’ll see it doesn’t relate to ontology/metaphysics and thus isn’t CM.
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This is quite ironic as the scan literally proves concept type 2 given it going over the expressions of abstract and practical manifestations of a concept, but I would love for you to actually elaborate on your point instead of just making claims.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
This is quite ironic as the scan literally proves concept type 2 given it going over the expressions of abstract and practical manifestations of a concept, but I would love for you to actually elaborate on your point instead of just making claims.
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It’s literally explaining concepts in terms of logic. It gives the exact definition of what a ball is in semantics and pragmatics of what a ball is such as a tennis ball. There is no context of an abstract universal governing an object but definitions of what we assign to objects and what falls under that definition or how we define what a concept (mental idea) is. There is no relation to metaphysics.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
It’s literally explaining concepts in terms of logic. It gives the exact definition of what a ball is in semantics and pragmatics of what a ball is such as a tennis ball. There is no context of an abstract universal governing an object but definitions of what we assign to objects and what falls under that definition or how we define what a concept (mental idea) is. There is no relation to metaphysics.
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Like there’s a word and what we would assign to that word (concept). But that word isn’t a governing force behind what is assigned to it because it’s purely pragmatics and semantics or a mental construct we assign to stuff and how it can be defined by using those.
 
Small_Ophion said:
Would there be a need to change it to perception manipulation? Isn't the altered perception indirectly caused, it only exists due to the alteration in space from how I understood Gojo's Limitless.
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It was indirectly caused by that. I don't think we are required to change it from CM to perception manipulation.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
It’s literally explaining concepts in terms of logic. It gives the exact definition of what a ball is in semantics and pragmatics of what a ball is such as a tennis ball. There is no context of an abstract universal governing an object but definitions of what we assign to objects and what falls under that definition or how we define what a concept (mental idea) is. There is no relation to metaphysics.
Click to expand...
Correct, and in our world which isn't run by type two information, said concepts would indeed be considered nominal. We can't prove an entity like infinity exists, that CLEARLY isn't the case for JJK. In this case, the concepts do indeed reflect abstract principles that govern reality, which is why Yuki can do things breaking the Sunyata's barrier's circular definition, it's why she can control the concept of mass, and it's also why her concept being "indescribable from semantics and pragmatics" make her able to ignore concepts and thus CT in general.

Now let's look at your quote from OP
Concepts that are not abstract, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. Such concepts exist strictly as non-abstract objects and hold no power over anything whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind.
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The mountain of evidence I have provided from the manga and supplement, clearly outline the concepts discussed her as more than nominal concepts. Infinity exists without Gojo, Mass exists without Yuki. These concepts are inherently abstract and also give characters reality-bending control over reality.

Thus qualifying said concepts as both existing in reality but also governing said things. In this case, the definitions of semantics and pragmatics would indeed include the abstract conceptual definition from logic, and the manifestations of those things as pragmatic, which you can blatantly see in the example given such as "even number" it being divisible by 2 is the summary of it's existence, and all the numbers listed would be the subset of things that express said definition. The gojo example above is proof of this, he is using infinity to conjure negative numbers and having this manifest as "negative 1 apples" in reality.
 
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Dr._whiteee said:
Correct, and in our world which isn't run by type two information, said concepts would indeed be considered nominal. We can't prove an entity like infinity exists, that CLEARLY isn't the case for JJK. In this case, the concepts do indeed reflect abstract principles that govern reality, which is why Yuki can do things breaking the Sunyata's barrier's circular definition, it's why she can control the concept of mass, and it's also why her concept being "indescribable from semantics and pragmatics" make her able to ignore concepts and thus CT in general.
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So this is completely isolated from infinity. Got it. So this discussion was derailing. If we were to entertain the idea of this being CM then CTs are not inherently conceptual but are ignored because they would fall under the concept such as Gojo's "Red" pragmatically being under "Red" thus further severing the connection from Gojos infinity being conceptual.
Dr._whiteee said:
The mountain of evidence I have provided from the manga and supplement, clearly outline the concepts discussed her as more than nominal concepts. Infinity exists without Gojo, Mass exists without Yuki. These concepts are inherently abstract and also give characters reality-bending control over reality.

Thus qualifying said concepts as both existing in reality but also governing said things. In this case, the definitions of semantics and pragmatics would indeed include the abstract conceptual definition from logic, and the manifestations of those things as pragmatic, which you can blatantly see in the example given such as "even number" it being divisible by 2 is the summary of it's existence, and all the numbers listed would be the subset of things that express said definition. The gojo example above is proof of this, he is using infinity to conjure negative numbers and having this manifest as "negative 1 apples" in reality.
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So you're essentially ignoring the points from Ultima about the -1 apples bit being at best mathematics manipulation and his points about infinity. I don't see how stuff about Yuki has any bearing on Gojo. I have no idea if you're still talking about this but the word concept from the near and far bit was never used in the context that you are trying to say concept is used in as it does not come from gege himself and demonstratably does not share the same context such as it being "feeling" "thought" and "perception" based.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
So this is completely isolated from infinity. Got it.
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It's not, I'd love to hear how you came to this conclusion if you read my post.
BestMGQScalerEver said:
So this discussion was derailing. If we were to entertain the idea of this being CM then CTs are not inherently conceptual but are ignored because they would fall under the concept such as Gojo's "Red" pragmatically being under "Red" thus further severing the connection from Gojos infinity being conceptual.
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It's not, how would informing of you of the Ontology of the verse be derailing? It's explicitly related to how concepts are treated in verse and contexualizes the information I showed you.

Red is not the concept he is altering. Red is the name he gives the application of diverging infinity. Infinity is the concept, red, blue, and purples are names for the functions of convergence/divergence and mixing the two.
BestMGQScalerEver said:
So you're essentially ignoring the points from Ultima about the -1 apples bit being at best mathematics manipulation and his points about infinity.
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A.) Ultima is still talking with me and asked me to give him context as to my argument so I am not sure why you are taking that as his grand conclusion. You seem to not actually be addressing my arguments and just making claims.
B.) You yourself just said these are nominal concepts. So how is it nominal if Infinity is an omnipresent concept that clearly has the properties to abstractly affect reality based on mathematical principles? That is an inherently contradictory stance.

BestMGQScalerEver said:
I don't see how stuff about Yuki has any bearing on Gojo.
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Because you aren't actually digesting what I said.

Kenjaku states "that's th technique's target concept," implying that by nature, techniques have a target concept used for them to materialize. This is further bolstered by the fact that this concept manip was not only related to her specific technique of mass, but also had implications on the CT of all of Kenjaku's remaining relevant cursed spirits, which is why he had to fight her solo. Ergo, CT is conceptual by nature, with stronger sorcery being able to use type 2 concept manip, such as Gojo, Sukuna, Yuki, and other Cursed spirits.
BestMGQScalerEver said:
I have no idea if you're still talking about this but the word concept from the near and far bit was never used in the context that you are trying to say concept is used in as it does not come from gege himself and demonstratably does not share the same context such as it being "feeling" "thought" and "perception" based.
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You clearly have no understanding of what Infinity is or what is being discussed in the interview if your conclusion is that the concept manip talked about is in reference to perception manipulation. Gojo is controlling the concept of scale in space which is blatantly said and his powers blatantly operate by affecting reality first not perception, the mention of perception is solely due to the preceding spatial manipulation caused by infinity. I have literally broken down the abstract elements in my latest post to Ultima. Arguments which you are handwaving.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Yea. No alternative had enough staff agrees so that will probably have to be handled by supporters in another thread.
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Duedate is still going to give his opinion as the staff JJK mod and Ultima is still in discussion with me, so as an admin I believe he has time respond and give his final verdict.
 
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