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STAFF NEEDED: DxD Gods Abstract Existence/Concept Manip + more

"Hey, I notice how certain concepts bring entities to life? For instance:

  • The nothingness of infinity (dimensional gap) gives rise to the existence of The Ophis.
  • The Dreams and Illusions is what brings Great Red into being.

This is even mentioned in their profile summaries, they bron form there said concept(nothingness, Dream and illusions).


Note- I am not sure for other gods


Note- I am mentioned this because I feel like its correspond with this
 
  • The nothingness of infinity (dimensional gap) gives rise to the existence of The Ophis.
  • The Dreams and Illusions is what brings Great Red into being.
I don't remember this was ever mentioned in the novel, they just exist there for very long time, Ophis left, then Great Red take resident in Dimensional Gap

Also the nothingness of infinity?, like lol, hilarious contradiction
 
I don't remember this was ever mentioned in the novel, they just exist there for very long time, Ophis left, then Great Red take resident in Dimensional Gap

Also the nothingness of infinity?, like lol, hilarious contradiction
Scan


Bro look like you don't read novel properly it's in v11 life 2 part 2 it should be reliable because it's said by ddraig who live thousands of year and very knowledgeable of mythical beings
So please read properly before saying anything
 
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Scan


Bro look like you don't read novel properly it's in v11 life 2 part 2 it should be reliable because it's said by ddraig who live thousands of year and very knowledgeable of mythical beings
So please read properly before saying anything
Do you have japanese texts?
 
I'm going to use logic for this particular scan.

Born from concept /=/ (are not equal to) Can manipulate and embody that concept. It was different if you use another scan. Also "nothingness" of "infinity" is already mean that infinity derived from nothingness. As in, infinite nothingness. lol

It's similar to Tao give birth to two, to four, to eight and finally to myriads of things. But the myriads of things themself cannot manipulate and embody Tao.
 
If I had a coin for every time I saw someone make a DxD statement that showed they didn't actually read the novels, I'd have 2, which isn't much, but it's weird that it happened 2 times.
I already had my suspicions but this confirms it, I guess this was all a waste of time.
 
Ophis' Infinity being a collection of itself and lesser concepts like nothingness and chaos.

Potential Arguments against: Ophis was split into Ophis (Finite) and Lilith, so if Ophis truly is Infinity, wouldn't that not exist anymore since Ophis (Infinity) is no more?

Counter: Ophis and Lilith are 2 parts to one being, Infinity isn't gone so much as it's inaccessible to Ophis. When working together, they are practically restored to Ophis' prime. So really there's not really a contradiction. Also, you could just say that Samael which caused the split has some kind of negation to Ophis abilities since that's the reason it was created.

Great Red's dream being a collection of itself and imagination.
I'm supposed to see scans here to know where this information came from.
Issei: Has both the Power of Infinity from Ophis and the Power of Dreams from Great Red, thus he should get Conceptual Manip for their Concepts. Also a resistance to Conceptual Manip as his True DxD was able to nullify the effect of Alphecca Tyrant which removed the Concept of Sexual Desire from Issei. Also, his and Ddraig's BIoSF Technique can cause wounds that Gods (Specifically Vidar) cannot heal, and as shown in the God Phys section, Gods have Low Godly Regen Over Time (Low Mid Normally), so Issei and Ddraig would get Regen Negation up to those levels. (I'll leave that up to Staff) Something important to note is that Trihexa who possesses Low Godly Regen was able to regen from this technique. (Which implied that its Low-Mid)
Seems like those so-called concepts were established and discussed before, though, I don't know jack about the verse so it is preferred if you can explain the Power of Infinity or link a discussion about it. Removing the concept of "sexual desire" is very well a type 3 concept at best, since it's just some wacky shit that circulates around human desires and not a concept that is fundamental to reality.
Issei being a God and embodies the concepts of Sexual Desire, Breasts, Infinity and Miracles. With "Breasts" being stated to be a "Universal Concept" though I'm not sure what that means exactly.
Miracles and infinity are implied to be abstract concepts judging by the context of these scans shown. Though, those concepts weren't elaborated comprehensively, so those 2 things being a type 3 concept is the best I can assign.

"Breasts" being a universal concept is horrendously crazy honestly, but I don't think I'm the type who can deny the presented evidence. I don't inherently have a strict issue with "breasts" being a universal concept then.
Conclusion
  1. PDxD-AxA Issei, Great Red, Ophis Concept Manip Type 2 (Infinity, Chaos, Nothingness/Infinity, Sexual Desire, Miracles/Dreams, Imagination respectively)
  2. True DxD Issei Resistance to Concept Manip Type 2 (Concept of Sexual Desire)
So far up to here, the only thing you presented as a type 2 concept is this so-called "breast" thing. And this so-called "breast" concept doesn't seem to fall under your proposal of type 2 conceptual manipulation. You haven't provided sufficient scans with clear comprehensive explanations of these terms you mentioned, other than sexual desire, miracles and infinity; the only evidence that I see that can substantiate those 3 things being remote concepts is that they are embodied and personified -- it wasn't explained how those 3 concepts are fundamental or pervasive across reality. Type 3 conceptual manipulation is the best I can do for manipulating "sexual desire", "infinity" and "miracles". I won't be accepting anything else pertaining to CM beyond this unless you provide scans with in-depth context that further supports this proposal of yours.
  1. Tobio (Non Divine, Second Key Up), Loki (Standard, Mischief for CM), Issei (Standard, Dream Dragon, Infinity Dragon), Great Red (Standard, Dream Dragon), Ophis (Standard, Infinity Dragon), Gasper (Non Divine), Nyx (Standard, Night for CM), Apollon (Standard, Sun, Sun for CM), Erebus (Standard, Darkness for CM), Tartarus (Standard, The Abyss for CM), Rossweisse (Demigod), Vidar (Standard), and Sun Wukong (Buddha) would get the Phys Page added
Not sure how much of this has remotely anything to do with all the previous information of the OP. I'm not even sure what the proposal is here.
  1. God Phys addition. (Both a page and adding it to respective characters) (can check here for detailed explanations of everything)
I'll get to this later.
  1. Issei and Dragon would get either Low-Mid Regen Negation, or Low-Godly Regen Negation. (Up to Staff to decide)
Low-Mid regeneration negation seems more reasonable to me. Considering that the Gods have to accelerate their regeneration capability to Low-Godly, but it'll always be Low-Mid at the start. The context of the scans of this proposal expressed the Blazing Inferno of Scorching Flames as something powerful enough to harm Gods, but I don't see enough specific detail that it can negate any degree of their regeneration. Perhaps the Blazing Inferno was used against the Gods at the start, and could negate their Low-Godly regeneration as a byproduct, though this wouldn't be Low-Godly regeneration negation since you're not inhibiting their Low-Godly regen directly.
  1. Small Angel/Devil Phys additions, we see Rias' father stating that he's lived for hundreds of thousands of years, so I'd like to add that to the Longevity sections of their pages. Also, Immortality Type 4/8 to Angel Physiology (and the weakness of dying without Faith) as they can revive like Gods can.
This is fine.
This'd replace the Regen for Ophis found here as well as the abilities already covered by the God Phys on the profiles of Gods.
Uh... what's your proposal for this? I don't seem to understand.
 
I'm supposed to see scans here to know where this information came from.
Most of what I was talking about regarding the Power of Infinity or conceptual stuff can be found in the God Physiology blog linked in the OP. (to Explain the CM and AE stuff) But I'll specifically source the stuff you asked about in the OP.
Seems like those so-called concepts were established and discussed before, though, I don't know jack about the verse so it is preferred if you can explain the Power of Infinity or link a discussion about it. Removing the concept of "sexual desire" is very well a type 3 concept at best, since it's just some wacky shit that circulates around human desires and not a concept that is fundamental to reality.
See first reply.
Miracles and infinity are implied to be abstract concepts judging by the context of these scans shown. Though, those concepts weren't elaborated comprehensively, so those 2 things being a type 3 concept is the best I can assign.
Sure, but I'll await your further comments after you view the God Phys page.
"Breasts" being a universal concept is horrendously crazy honestly, but I don't think I'm the type who can deny the presented evidence. I don't inherently have a strict issue with "breasts" being a universal concept then.
So would that be Type 2? I'm not the most knowledgeable on what these terms inherently mean.
So far up to here, the only thing you presented as a type 2 concept is this so-called "breast" thing. And this so-called "breast" concept doesn't seem to fall under your proposal of type 2 conceptual manipulation. You haven't provided sufficient scans with clear comprehensive explanations of these terms you mentioned, other than sexual desire, miracles and infinity; the only evidence that I see that can substantiate those 3 things being remote concepts is that they are embodied and personified -- it wasn't explained how those 3 concepts are fundamental or pervasive across reality. Type 3 conceptual manipulation is the best I can do for manipulating "sexual desire", "infinity" and "miracles". I won't be accepting anything else pertaining to CM beyond this unless you provide scans with in-depth context that further supports this proposal of yours.
See above replies
Not sure how much of this has remotely anything to do with all the previous information of the OP. I'm not even sure what the proposal is here.
People affected by the addition of a God Physiology page, all characters mentioned there are Gods or part God.
I'll get to this later.
The Meat of my argument. 💔
Low-Mid regeneration negation seems more reasonable to me. Considering that the Gods have to accelerate their regeneration capability to Low-Godly, but it'll always be Low-Mid at the start. The context of the scans of this proposal expressed the Blazing Inferno of Scorching Flames as something powerful enough to harm Gods, but I don't see enough specific detail that it can negate any degree of their regeneration. Perhaps the Blazing Inferno was used against the Gods at the start, and could negate their Low-Godly regeneration as a byproduct, though this wouldn't be Low-Godly regeneration negation since you're not inhibiting their Low-Godly regen directly.
No problem. I definitely think that's more than reasonable. (Just realized I made a mistake, it's actually High-Mid. Again, everything is sourced in the God Phys page.)
This is fine.
(y)
Uh... what's your proposal for this? I don't seem to understand.
Instead of Ophis (A god) having Regen on her P&A Section (Or most of the related abilities), she'd have her God Physiology Added to her page to replace that.
But uh, I'll wait until you give more definitive responses before adding you to the votes section. (Or not if you don't end up replying again.)
And in case this comes up in the future, most resistances (Time Stop, BFR, Probability Manip, Sealing, Gravity Manip, Perception Manip, Death Manip, Poison manip, and Soul Manip were already either accepted in previous threads or are currently in use on the verse's profiles.)
 
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What is your evidence that Ophis and GR are the same as other gods?

You literally want to apply these concepts to all gods from dxd. Extraordinary things need extraordinary proof, this is just association fallacies.

Here your premise:
- Dragon God Ophis represent idea of infinity and Great Red represent idea of dream, Ophis are called dragon of infinity and Great Red are called dragon of Dream.
-Therefore some random gods with prefix on them represent their prefixes.
-Literally missing causation that they (all gods, universally) should represent concept.

Missing causal link and doesn't correlate.

Have you learnt logic from philosophical class? Please say something that doesn't degrade my argument and make your argument look stupid.



Burden of proof is on you, for why these two dragon gods are the same as other gods. And wiki prefer PnA to be as detailed as possible, it wasn't enough.

Extraordinary haxs needs extraordinary proof, plus the one that you will literally apply to every gods in dxd.

Let's make a bet, majority of staffs would agree with my post here.
Show me the scan specific that her regeneration is tied to Infinity and as long as infinity is there, she will always come back. And even then it is just Immortality type 8. Abstract Existence type 2 is a fancy immortality type 8 that reliant on an abstraction

Show me that Infinity is actual abstract concept that can govern the concept of infinity, define what infinity is then we talk


What does this matter again? Sure he can control dream and embody dream, but it is it, like dream manipulation perfectly fit, why it must be concept manip?


Association Fallacy


Like seriously, there is no fact in here just assumption and leap in logic, your entire argument is just

1. Character A is said to represent B, embody C

2. Character A can control B or C

So B or C must be conceptual manipulation and character A must be abstract existence type 2

Sure we have similar trope among many profiles, fictions with similar line, but they have concrete evidences to show B and C is abstract concept

Sure you can believe whatever you want, but when all you have was personal interpretation and call others who did not agree with you is just they don't want to believe in your arguments is just........silly, no offense. Even verse that namedrop concept words can still be debated because non-qualifying concept like norminalism and idealism
Somehow i lost notification of this thread, then have notification again lol

i mean.........character A is stated to be God of Dream and he can manipulate Dream, doesn't mean Dream is a concept, of course dream is somewhat abstract in a sense, but that it, the site simply didn't just give conceptual manipulation because simply you have a character who is stated to be the symbol of this, represent of that, and manipulate said thing. Unless of course it drop a big word Concept on our face, but even then we can still debate it is just hyperbolic and not literal abstract concept that govern reality (tbf i dislike hyperbole argument but it is still valid case by case)

I mean, i understand what you think and why you reach such a conclusion, but it not enough according to how the site work at least
Here the problem with each premise. And why it is a fallacy towards all gods having CM and AE.

Undistributed middle

This is a fallacy where someone makes an argument of the following form: "All contents of set A are also contents of set B. X is in set B. Therefore X is in set A." The opposite would be true, though.

Example: "Ophis and co who have CM and AE are gods. Hades is a god. Therefore, Hades have CM and AE."
"Ophis who titled dragon god of infinity have conceptual manipulation over infinity. Hades have title of God of Death, therefore Hades have CM over death."
This argument ignores the critical factor of whether all gods and divine titles have CM or not.

Overgeneralization

The argument asserts that all gods in the DxD verse follow the same rules (i.e., title = embodiment).


The proof are on the A (Ophis and co with their titles and CM) not the B (all gods and their titles) side. It is indeed an association fallacies.


Did you not understand what "Extraordinary claim need extraordinary evidence"? It is that hard to comprehend?

You make an extraordinary claims that all gods with their titles have CM and AE. Therefore, you need extraordinary evidences that all gods with their titles have CM and AE.
Here the counter argument.
 
The core of this thread is the addition of a page for the Physiology of the Gods of DxD.
The points being discussed now are Abstract Existence and Conceptual Manipulation for the gods.

Abstract Existence
Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the Wiki's Abstract Existence page it says that to have Abstract Existence you need:
1) declarations of embodying a abstraction
2) Declaration or Feats that show that thanks to 1 you have Immortality/Regeneration OR control over the abstraction you embody.

With this we have 3 cases:

Ophis
Ophis, known as The Infinity Dragon God.
has several statements of Embodying the Infinity.
various statements of Representing Infinity.
as well as statements of being The Infinity.

The last statement has the added question of whether Ophis' status as The Infinity means that she either has the "strength of being infinite" or if her "Existence Itself" is The Infinity.
That is, it asks whether Ophis has Infinite Strength or if she is The Infinity Itself.

Ophis has Regeneration. same that is attributed to his status as Being The Infinite/Representing the Infinite.

It is stated that only Ophis in its Complete state has the Infinity.

Finally the Author himself declares that Ophis can Manipulate the Infinity.

Great Red
Great Red, known as The Dream Dragon God.

It is stated that it represents dreams.

Currently on the Wiki it is accepted that Great Red has Dream Manipulation since he has feats of controlling dreams and turning dreams into reality, along with a statement from the Author of controlling dreams.

Tartarus
Tartarus, known as The Primordial God of the Abyss.

declared the Embodiment/Incarnation of the Abyss.

Tartarus demonstrated the ability to Control the Abyss.


As you can see, all cases meet the requirements to have Abstract Existence (Type 2), they all share the fact of being Gods of that which they Embody, which gives them control over their Abstraction. That is how the powers of the gods work.

It is shown that there is a very clear relationship between being God of Something and the Embodiment of Something.

We see multiple examples of Gods controlling those over whom they are Gods.

Assuming that the powers of other gods do not follow the same rules does not make sense.

Conceptual Manipulation
As the Gods control Abstractions, then they have Conceptual Manipulation, the specific Type is what I still don't know.

Melvazoa, The Evil God, can manipulate the concept of Existence.
存在の概念を操作 = Manipulating the concept of existence

The Infinity
Ophis embodies The Infinity.
To know what Infinity is, you have to know that it is linked to Nothingness and Chaos. It is Nothing that matters here.
Since Ophis was born from the Nothingness of Infinity/Infinity Nothingness/Nothing that is considered Infinity.
Now, what is the "Nothingness of Infinity"? The answer lies in the birthplace of Ophis.
Ophis was born in the Dimensional Gap, a plane in the structure of DxD's Cosmology.
The Dimensional Gap is an empty void filled with boundless nothing.
sounds like something, the answer is clear, Boundless Nothing = Nothingness of Infinity/Infinity Nothingness
The Infinity that Ophis embodies is the Infinity of the Dimensional Gap, mind you, I'm not saying that Ophis is the embodiment of the Dimensional Gap, Ophis only embodies the Infinity aspect of the Dimensional Gap.

The Dimensional Gap is a structure with several qualities:
-It separates, surrounds, and contains the different planes of existence of Draconic Deus.
-The concepts of Distance and Direction do not exist in it.
-It exists beyond the Reality/Dimensions that are the planes of DxD.
-Every time the space of the planes of DxD is cut/destroyed, the Dimensional Gap can be seen behind it, it is the background on which the planes of DxD exist.

The Dream
Great Red Represents Dreams, more specifically:
the dreams we have, the dreams we see and the dreams we imagine.

The Abyss.
The Abyss also called Naraku(奈落), It is one of the Mythological Worlds that make up the Cosmology of DxD(see Greek Mythology section, point Hell.). It is a vast space of emptiness filled with pure darkness, a world of darkness without a single ray of light.

This is all we know about Infinity, Dream and Abyss, but I'm not sure what it means when it comes to saying what type of concept they are.


The Case of Issei
Issei has the powers of Ophis and Great, he shares the same physiology as them by having a body made of the Flesh and Blood of Great Red and the Power of Ophis.
and in her DxD/True DxD state (a form in which he makes use of the Power of Ophis) he has claims to embody the Infinity.
It is also stated that due to her constant use of Breast Power she has become an embodiment of breasts.
Throughout the series, Issei has shown to be able to use the Nyuu Power (乳力 = Breast Power), and has several techniques and attacks that make use of the breasts.
 
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Bump (I don't see the need to reiterate things already made apparent in the OP, it just seems to clog the thread imo)
 
I'm supposed to see scans here to know where this information came from.

Seems like those so-called concepts were established and discussed before, though, I don't know jack about the verse so it is preferred if you can explain the Power of Infinity or link a discussion about it. Removing the concept of "sexual desire" is very well a type 3 concept at best, since it's just some wacky shit that circulates around human desires and not a concept that is fundamental to reality.

Miracles and infinity are implied to be abstract concepts judging by the context of these scans shown. Though, those concepts weren't elaborated comprehensively, so those 2 things being a type 3 concept is the best I can assign.

"Breasts" being a universal concept is horrendously crazy honestly, but I don't think I'm the type who can deny the presented evidence. I don't inherently have a strict issue with "breasts" being a universal concept then.

So far up to here, the only thing you presented as a type 2 concept is this so-called "breast" thing. And this so-called "breast" concept doesn't seem to fall under your proposal of type 2 conceptual manipulation. You haven't provided sufficient scans with clear comprehensive explanations of these terms you mentioned, other than sexual desire, miracles and infinity; the only evidence that I see that can substantiate those 3 things being remote concepts is that they are embodied and personified -- it wasn't explained how those 3 concepts are fundamental or pervasive across reality. Type 3 conceptual manipulation is the best I can do for manipulating "sexual desire", "infinity" and "miracles". I won't be accepting anything else pertaining to CM beyond this unless you provide scans with in-depth context that further supports this proposal of yours.

Not sure how much of this has remotely anything to do with all the previous information of the OP. I'm not even sure what the proposal is here.

I'll get to this later.

Low-Mid regeneration negation seems more reasonable to me. Considering that the Gods have to accelerate their regeneration capability to Low-Godly, but it'll always be Low-Mid at the start. The context of the scans of this proposal expressed the Blazing Inferno of Scorching Flames as something powerful enough to harm Gods, but I don't see enough specific detail that it can negate any degree of their regeneration. Perhaps the Blazing Inferno was used against the Gods at the start, and could negate their Low-Godly regeneration as a byproduct, though this wouldn't be Low-Godly regeneration negation since you're not inhibiting their Low-Godly regen directly.

This is fine.

Uh... what's your proposal for this? I don't seem to understand.
Hey, it's been a week, what are your updated opinions having read the God Physiology Page?
Bump
 
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