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We need to stop taking the word "concept" at face value (Satoru Gojo CM removal)
- Thread starter BestMGQScalerEver
- Start date
- Status
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- Thread starter
- #122
There is no opposing staff to the thread so far.
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No one mentioned staff member.
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- Thread starter
- #124
Doesn't this indefinitely stall threads with any amount of normal user opposition though? Despite there being 5 staff agrees and no disagrees.
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If one were to consider it from a different perspective, it could be argued that it is also a method of expediting threads. Once again, a duration of two weeks without any prior notice is a reasonable amount.
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- Thread starter
- #126
No wonder JJK threads are stalled so much. 
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I'd very much like to hear more of what Ultima has to say here before we attempt to move this thread forward. Especially since it's hard to get staff involved with these threads in the first place, I'd prefer we just get the limitless correct now instead of spending months unable to make any changes.
That said, my current viewpoint is leaning towards having conceptual manipulation replaced with mathematics manipulation since a lot of the explained mechanics do rely on math. The only thing I'm really unsure on is what exactly we'd be treating the infinity that gojo brings into reality if it's not a concept.
That said, my current viewpoint is leaning towards having conceptual manipulation replaced with mathematics manipulation since a lot of the explained mechanics do rely on math. The only thing I'm really unsure on is what exactly we'd be treating the infinity that gojo brings into reality if it's not a concept.
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- Thread starter
- #128
Sounds reasonable.
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,235
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Him manipulating space through mathematics and physics basically. He can divide sections of space similar to how the infinite series works.
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- Thread starter
- #130
Since Duedate came forward with his stance I'll wait and pray that Ultima comes within next few days and not wait a full 2 weeks.
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I understand that easily, what I'm talking about is the statement in regards to infinity already being there and naturally ocourring and gojo making it real. That's part of the reason why I'm not supportive of the perception angle very much. If it's always there and naturally ocourring it does sound like something that isn't reliant on human perception. And since space already exist it can't just be gojo manipulating space. I think that's also part of white's main of being concept manipulation in the first place
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This is very reasonable to me.
Arkenis
They/Them- 17,235
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I don't think any staff really supported the perception angle to begin with, just a sorta "could be" considering how the interview described it. Deagonx offered good reasoning as to why the interview shouldn't be used in the first place as well.
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The concept of limitless embodies the notion of infinitesimal fractional units in a tangible form, whereby any force that attempts to penetrate infinity slows down to the point of complete halt.
It is akin to the Achilles Paradox (stated by Gege himself when he tries to illustrate an example of "Achilles and the tortoise"), you can't simply reach someone due to the infinite amount of finite space separating both. So at the end, any attack ends up hitting infinity itself.
Are you referring to the panel where he says, "Infinity is something that's naturally there, I just bring it into reality".
I believe that Gojo passesly refers to it as the divergence of infinity. By utilizing reversed cursed energy instead of negative cursed energy to power Limitless, the effects of Cursed Technique Lapse: Blue are reversed, resulting in repelling effects (Red). In other words, he is bringing infinity, into reality as a tangible explosive force.
If anything, I see infinity as gravity and spatial manipulation (I don't think it manipulates any concept, seriously. It surely manipulates mass, but not on conceptual level as VSBW draws it). He brings the convergence and divergence of an infinite series into reality, allowing him to freely manipulate and distort space.
It is akin to the Achilles Paradox (stated by Gege himself when he tries to illustrate an example of "Achilles and the tortoise"), you can't simply reach someone due to the infinite amount of finite space separating both. So at the end, any attack ends up hitting infinity itself.
Are you referring to the panel where he says, "Infinity is something that's naturally there, I just bring it into reality".
I believe that Gojo passesly refers to it as the divergence of infinity. By utilizing reversed cursed energy instead of negative cursed energy to power Limitless, the effects of Cursed Technique Lapse: Blue are reversed, resulting in repelling effects (Red). In other words, he is bringing infinity, into reality as a tangible explosive force.
If anything, I see infinity as gravity and spatial manipulation (I don't think it manipulates any concept, seriously. It surely manipulates mass, but not on conceptual level as VSBW draws it). He brings the convergence and divergence of an infinite series into reality, allowing him to freely manipulate and distort space.
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I feel like he does qualify for type 2. He is manipulating the abstract concepts of near and far, not just an opponent perception of those ideas. He is directly altering these concepts, not just indirectly influencing them. He can also control the weakness or strength of the concepts themselves. These concepts exist independently of any one person perception. Near and far are fundamental spatial concepts. By manipulating these concepts, he changes the properties of space itself. Its not just a perceptual trick, he fundamentally alters distance and proximity.
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I would also like to point out that we saw Gojo do this, not just with regular space, but also to abstract space such as Sukuna's shrine [2] which is outright stated to exist symbolically in the mindscape of domains, Gojo dilated the area into a size of the basketball to contain Sukuna's larger domain which requires a concrete "image" to achieve and accounting for things like vector parameters, acceleration, etc. With reality also being inherently type 2 information, this would also heavily preclude the conceptual nature of jujutsu as I also outlined with Kenkaju's discussion of cursed techniques above.
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- #137
Except it’s elaborated in the scan itself that concept is used in context of a mental idea as it’s also described as tweaking their feeling of near and far exactly how it’s said he is tweaking concept of near and far.
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- #138
Sukunas shrine which is also said to not create a separate space. I’m sorry but throwing out random buzzwords isn’t gonna prove CM. This is also by no means an abstract space. It’s a space that represents themselves or their mind but that by no means makes the result conceptual or abstract.
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I can kinda understand both sides of the arguments tbh.
For one, I think the interpretation that Gojo is manipulating the concept of infinity is a reason or one, not just because he states that he’s affecting the “concept of infinity” and how it’s “omnipresent all around us” but also because cursed techniques encompassing ‘concepts’ themselves is a notion that is supported throughout the series with instances such as Yuki’s CT being described as one that “ignores concepts” which was a problem for Kenjaku because he had many curses that would attack themselves via manipulations of concepts, which those curses became useless against Yuki because of the aforementioned “ignoring of concepts” that her ability allows.
So conceptual manipulation being involved in a person’s CT is a precedence that is set within the series by multiple characters.
There is also of course Sukuna’s most recent explanation of how he was able to bypass through Gojo’s infinity, which was by him targeting “space, existence, and the world itself” with his CT instead of making Gojo the target like he normally would.
To me personally, that sounds like Sukuna is using some type of conceptual manipulation in order to bypass Gojo’s infinity. Which would make sense if we take into account Gojo stating that he’s affecting the concept of infinity with his CT and other characters also being able to manipulate concepts with their own cursed techniques as well.
However, I cannot deny that there is also a very large “mathematical” interpretation for Gojo’s infinity as well, which was brought up by multiple staff members like Ultima and Duedate. I don’t think this necessarily debunks the notion that Gojo’s cursed technique involves conceptual manipulation to it as I don’t think Gojo’s technique has to be ‘either’ mathematics manip or conceptual manip in a mutually exclusive sense towards each other, however I think the notion that Gojo’s ability is derived off of mathematics manipulation instead of conceptual manipulation is a fairly reasonable interpretation in of itself.
In short, I’m neutral, leaning towards disagree just because I don’t see how these two abilities necessarily dictate that they have to be mutually exclusive to one another in regards to Gojo, but I shall wait for more input from others like Ultima before coming to a final conclusion.
For one, I think the interpretation that Gojo is manipulating the concept of infinity is a reason or one, not just because he states that he’s affecting the “concept of infinity” and how it’s “omnipresent all around us” but also because cursed techniques encompassing ‘concepts’ themselves is a notion that is supported throughout the series with instances such as Yuki’s CT being described as one that “ignores concepts” which was a problem for Kenjaku because he had many curses that would attack themselves via manipulations of concepts, which those curses became useless against Yuki because of the aforementioned “ignoring of concepts” that her ability allows.
So conceptual manipulation being involved in a person’s CT is a precedence that is set within the series by multiple characters.
There is also of course Sukuna’s most recent explanation of how he was able to bypass through Gojo’s infinity, which was by him targeting “space, existence, and the world itself” with his CT instead of making Gojo the target like he normally would.
To me personally, that sounds like Sukuna is using some type of conceptual manipulation in order to bypass Gojo’s infinity. Which would make sense if we take into account Gojo stating that he’s affecting the concept of infinity with his CT and other characters also being able to manipulate concepts with their own cursed techniques as well.
However, I cannot deny that there is also a very large “mathematical” interpretation for Gojo’s infinity as well, which was brought up by multiple staff members like Ultima and Duedate. I don’t think this necessarily debunks the notion that Gojo’s cursed technique involves conceptual manipulation to it as I don’t think Gojo’s technique has to be ‘either’ mathematics manip or conceptual manip in a mutually exclusive sense towards each other, however I think the notion that Gojo’s ability is derived off of mathematics manipulation instead of conceptual manipulation is a fairly reasonable interpretation in of itself.
In short, I’m neutral, leaning towards disagree just because I don’t see how these two abilities necessarily dictate that they have to be mutually exclusive to one another in regards to Gojo, but I shall wait for more input from others like Ultima before coming to a final conclusion.
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Correct, Sukuna doesn't need to create a separate space to manifest his innate domain (which is an abstract space that exist outside of time) because he can manifest directly into reality. Which would mean it is still abstract, just painted over reality as opposed to a confined and created space like most users.
Don't accuse me of throwing out random buzzwords simply because you cannot comprehend the ramifications of the ability explanations, please and thank you.
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- Thread starter
- #141
Well a lot of what you say it quite incoherent and based on heavy extrapolation and to me it seems as if it pulls off world record level
. Excuse me while I take a moment to chill out because your condescending attitude about this irks me.
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A lot of what you say is evasive in nature and has a lot of non-sequiturs. If the post is too info-dense for you, you could have always asked for clarification or summarization.Well a lot of what you say it quite incoherent and based on heavy extrapolation and to me it seems as if it pulls off world record level
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- #143
Ah yes I’m sorry Dr. White such a dimwitted fool such as I could never hope to fathom your unspeakable intelligence that will always remain out of my grubby hands reach. ToodlesA lot of what you say is evasive in nature and has a lot of non-sequiturs. If the post is too info-dense for you, you could have always asked for clarification or summarization.
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You should take a break. I'm willing to mull over the evidence with you later. Toodles.
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We are awaiting Ultima's response to my evidence which he asked for clarification on. Seems unnecessary to rush this given that and Duedate/Lucky stating they also would like to hear his response.
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- #147
Question. If it is replaced with Math Manip do you think the resulting space or infinity would be abstract or would it just be creating a physical space or distance via manipulating said math
for clarification sake
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I wouldn't consider it rushed given that it's currently 7-0 in favor of removing CM. Especially since it was applied based on a thread that was 1-1. We can wait for Ultima for a while, but even if he changes his mind and brings Duedate with him, this would still pass by a considerable margin.
I'm not inclined to think of it as being abstract in this context, personally.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,425
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Math is inherently abstract, anyway i think Gojo's Infinity being CM is fine, since even if it is a nominal ideas, he still capable of manipulating abstract ideas and make it real, affect physical reality itself
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Nominal ideas are abstract, but only in the way that a dream or a random thought in my head is abstract (it's non-physical, which is good enough for some definitions, but doesn't fit the philosophical context of the term used on the CM page, which is why such concepts are non-qualifying). So no, it wouldn't be CM if that was the case. I feel like the word "abstract" is becoming too large a focus here, because I don't think both sides are even using compatible definitions, so things keep going in circles. I also agree with previous comments that proposed Infinity referring to being the infinite divisions of space that his power lets him manifest as he pleases, rather than the literal concept of infinity being manifested. And obviously it follows that I agree with removing CM from Gojo's page as a result of that and other arguments made here.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,425
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Fundamental concept or nominal ideas, all the same are abstract ideas, what different is nominal ideas are, just abstract ideas that we thinking all day and have no consequence on physical reality, concept are ideas that shape and govern whatever aspect and have affect on physical reality. If something is abstract ideas, and have feat and context of it behaving exactly like what normal concept is, then it can be qualified as conceptual manipulation
To be fair here, the only one who have actual good argument against Gojo having CM is Ultima
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- #152
Bringing thoughts or ideas into reality is just subjective reality….(at best if you take it as is)
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Not really? Like I said a dream is abstract in the same way they are, but manipulation or manifesting a dream isn't going to grant you conceptual manipulation on its own. So simply being able to make it affect reality with your powers doesn't make it qualify.
Vietthai96
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Everything require contexts, if contexts is enough, then it is CM
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You haven't elaborated on what context you think makes it qualified beyond him "manipulating abstract ideas and make it real" which I feel like I already addressed.
Vietthai96
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Didn't i already said it in my first comment??
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Didn't I already explain why that isn't enough?
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except......... your points being "oh its dreams or thought or whatever" which is irrelevant to gojo's infinite in the first place?
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surprise to see how not even one person mention the vol 0 novels scan ( like, in every thread ever)
so here we go i guess
Chính vì
đó không chút do dự giữa trung tâm thành phố đã
đi tần người dân, nghĩa là sẽ chiến hết minh.
Mặt khác, Miguel cùng e dè khó lòng bảo toàn
tính mạng.
Gã đã tận mắt chứng kiến hình ảnh thực sự về
thuật thực của Gojo, thứ liên tục bị dây thừng cản trở
cho đến lúc ấy.
“Vô Hạ Hạn Chủ Thuật”.
Trước khi đụng độ, Miguel từng được Geto giải
thích. Đó là loại thuật biến khái niệm "vô hạn" thành
hiện thực, theo đúng nghĩa đen. Thuật thức di truyền
này đã biến Gojo Satoru trở thành kẻ mạnh nhất.
Do có sức công phá ngoài khuôn khổ, việc điều
khiển nó đòi hỏi thao tác chủ thuật tỉ mỉ, can thiệp
vào vật chất ở cấp độ nguyên tử. Nếu tính toán
nghiêm túc đến mức chi phối không - thời gian, khô
tránh khỏi áp lực tới cháy não.
Jutsu Kasën
had to do 2 picture cuz some might not believe me for some reason
so here we go i guess
Chính vì
đó không chút do dự giữa trung tâm thành phố đã
đi tần người dân, nghĩa là sẽ chiến hết minh.
Mặt khác, Miguel cùng e dè khó lòng bảo toàn
tính mạng.
Gã đã tận mắt chứng kiến hình ảnh thực sự về
thuật thực của Gojo, thứ liên tục bị dây thừng cản trở
cho đến lúc ấy.
“Vô Hạ Hạn Chủ Thuật”.
Trước khi đụng độ, Miguel từng được Geto giải
thích. Đó là loại thuật biến khái niệm "vô hạn" thành
hiện thực, theo đúng nghĩa đen. Thuật thức di truyền
này đã biến Gojo Satoru trở thành kẻ mạnh nhất.
Do có sức công phá ngoài khuôn khổ, việc điều
khiển nó đòi hỏi thao tác chủ thuật tỉ mỉ, can thiệp
vào vật chất ở cấp độ nguyên tử. Nếu tính toán
nghiêm túc đến mức chi phối không - thời gian, khô
tránh khỏi áp lực tới cháy não.
Jutsu Kasën
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Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,425
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Lol bro, i'm very sleepy now but please use English scans, i'm lazy and sleepy today so i don't want to translate all these Vietnamese into English.surprise to see how not even one person mention the vol 0 novels scan ( like, in every thread ever)
so here we go i guess
had to do 2 picture cuz some might not believe me for some reason
Chính vì
đó không chút do dự giữa trung tâm thành phố đã
đi tần người dân, nghĩa là sẽ chiến hết minh.
Mặt khác, Miguel cùng e dè khó lòng bảo toàn
tính mạng.
Gã đã tận mắt chứng kiến hình ảnh thực sự về
thuật thực của Gojo, thứ liên tục bị dây thừng cản trở
cho đến lúc ấy.
“Vô Hạ Hạn Chủ Thuật”.
Trước khi đụng độ, Miguel từng được Geto giải
thích. Đó là loại thuật biến khái niệm "vô hạn" thành
hiện thực, theo đúng nghĩa đen. Thuật thức di truyền
này đã biến Gojo Satoru trở thành kẻ mạnh nhất.
Do có sức công phá ngoài khuôn khổ, việc điều
khiển nó đòi hỏi thao tác chủ thuật tỉ mỉ, can thiệp
vào vật chất ở cấp độ nguyên tử. Nếu tính toán
nghiêm túc đến mức chi phối không - thời gian, khô
tránh khỏi áp lực tới cháy não.
Jutsu Kasën
Anyway, i will translate the important parts
This is the translation, someone can get the actual English scan, now i need to sleep lol, i have afternoon shift
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